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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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 Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:25 pm Religious Freedoms Vs. Equality |
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A few things lately have gotten under my skin.
I'm going to start by saying that some people may not agree with some of my opinions. I don't mean to insult you. I want to hear your' opinions.
I remind you that the rules of World News include the word "Respect", and I will attempt to keep this debate going following that simple word.
I'm going to use a few examples, to support what I'm about to say. And I hesitate, mildly. Both of them include the Sikh religion. But, the point I'm trying to make should still show up.
A few months ago, in Ontario, a man was pulled over, riding a motorcycle, for not wearing a helmet.
It was against his beliefs.
A week ago, at an Interfor lumber-mill, A man filed a human-rights violation-based lawsuit against the company, because they had started rigorously enforcing the WorkSafeBC((British Columbia's version of a work-safety council, which is actually, in essence, a law-making body)) requirement of a hard-hat in construction or lumber-mill/manufacturing plant environments.
It's not a hard thing to wrap your' mind about, in my view. A motorcycle going 60 Kilometres an hour collides with a stationary traffic pole.
Unless the driver is protected, this will likely break bones.
Bones like the skull. The skull breaking usually means brain damage and/or death.
A turban does not constitute a life-saving device.
A tree is swung into a building on a crane.
The tree moves an average of 15 KM/Hr, with a significant amount of force behind it.
A forklift driver an average of 20 KM/Hr, with a slightly less amoung of force behind it.
Either are capable of knocking a careless person over, and breaking bones. Refer to above argument.
I'm tired of being discriminated against. I'm not Sikh. I'm not Asian. I'm native-born Canadian. My religious beliefs state that I should only wear leather or natural clothing, however, P.E.T.A says I can't wear leather. In addition, my workplace has strict uniform standards. They supply cotton based clothing.
It's actually a good thing. Leather doesn't stand up well to propane. And leaf, or grass-based clothing looks unclean, and also, doesn't stand up well against it either. I accept this. I wear my Husky uniform without question.
I could quite easily file the same Human-Rights violation against WorkSafeBC for requiring neoprene((A non-natural product)) gloves, or Husky Oil, for not designing leather-based, or natural-based uniforms. Synthetic Cotton, is all they use.
This means it's ECONOMICALLY FRIENDLY. The Synthetic Cotton, is actually, a dirivative of several by-products of Gasoline Production, that would otherwise simply be burned off, or dumped somewhere.
The Neoprene saves my hands from instant third-degree burns, as propane is stored at Negative 49.5 Degrees F.
Two things, which are both against my traditional beliefs. And yet, I have come to accept that these things are also a necessity, if I wish to continue working there. I'm given a choice. My beliefs are hardly likely to be accepted, anywhere. Either I accept that my beliefs will need to be amended, or I'll need a new job. I can't afford to travel far enough to find a job accepting my beliefs, so instead, I accept my job, and it's restrictions. This is called "Evolving to fit into Society".
It is a necessity to many immigrants, and native-born individuals in many countries.
If everyone argued the same human rights violations, there could be no safety regulations involving many things.
There are a few tribes here that believe that clothing in general is evil.
Yet members of that society realize that they must stay on thier' reserve, because the world cannot abide by thier' beliefs. They do so, happily, in thier' safe area, which rarely gets tourists.
I'm not highly looked upon by my tribe. Infact, I am given Tribal status, strictly due to my blood-line, but I am not welcome on the tribe's lands.
I have been "Soiled" by non-natural things. I accept this, because, while I still have my beliefs, they are often bent, to accomodate another set of beliefs.
The problem with constantly claiming discrimination, is that, eventually, all that is left is a small group of people, who all the rules apply to, while everyone else has other-then legal reasons for breaking the law, or rules set forth by another governing body.
So I understand that this may be a touchy subject for some, but I want to learn, and attempt to understand the mindset belonging to other points of view.
Please don't take direct offence to this, it wasn't intended to offend others. It was made in the simplest of desires known to humanity. Curiousity. I think we can all admit to being curious, every once in a while, into another' person's thought processes. I'm just hoping someone will stand up, and help me with this one.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:52 pm |
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Squiggy? Excellent post and well worded. No one should take offense.
This is a growing problem in Canada due the multiculturalism that we've adopted. Mutliculturalism is great and all, but people need to start realizing that they're in Canada now and should not try and conform us to be just like the country that they moved away from for one reason or another.
I have friends of all cultures and whatever their religious beliefs, it doesn't bother me. Believe whatever you want. But it's the cases like the motorcycle helmet (it was ruled he needed to wear a helmet in court, btw) which bother me. They do not, in fact, need to wear a turbin. They have other cloth-like apparell they are allowed to wear UNDER the helmet. I have a muslim friend from Egypt, he wears a cloth under a baseball cap because he doesn't want to wear the turbin but says that what he does is perfectly acceptable by his religion. Why couldn't the man on the motocycle do this?
The same argument can be applied to the man who is allowed to wear a turbin in the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police). For anybody who doesn't know, those are the stereotypical Canadian police in the red and black uniform with the ranger's cap and the horses (which is only ceremonial, btw). The man knew when he applied to the RCMP that the hat was part of Canadian ceremonial tradition, yet he fought not to wear it and actually won... Why is it that Canadian traditions have to take a back seat to other traditions? I don't understand it. This is our country yet we're treated like the guests a lot of the times. You have a freedom of religion and freedom of expression in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, yes, but take that in context with the what's going on around you. No one in Canada is telling you not to believe in your faith. We're just telling you that in certain circumstances, you may have to abide by Canadian tradition over your own, and that's what happens when you move to another country.
Another one that bothered me, but thankfully was ruled against, was when one of the Middle-Eastern religions argued that their young son should be able to bring a Kerpan to school. A Kerpan is a 9 inch ceremonial knife. Excuse me? A large knife in school? No. End of story.
Like I said, I have friends of every possible decent, I have nothing against the people or them believing what they wish. But I really have had enough of Canadian laws, regulations, and traditions taking a back seat to other nations' beliefs in what should be no-brainer cases, which unfortunately, often go the wrong way on the common sense spectrum.
Wear a helmet, something tells me your beliefs won't safe your skull from an oak tree. Wear the Canadian ceremonial hat. It's our tradition. And don't bring a knife to school, come on...
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:19 pm |
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| Valathous wrote: | Squiggy? Excellent post and well worded. No one should take offense.
This is a growing problem in Canada due the multiculturalism that we've adopted. Mutliculturalism is great and all, but people need to start realizing that they're in Canada now and should not try and conform us to be just like the country that they moved away from for one reason or another.
I have friends of all cultures and whatever their religious beliefs, it doesn't bother me. Believe whatever you want. But it's the cases like the motorcycle helmet (it was ruled he needed to wear a helmet in court, btw) which bother me. They do not, in fact, need to wear a turbin. They have other cloth-like apparell they are allowed to wear UNDER the helmet. I have a muslim friend from Egypt, he wears a cloth under a baseball cap because he doesn't want to wear the turbin but says that what he does is perfectly acceptable by his religion. Why couldn't the man on the motocycle do this?
The same argument can be applied to the man who is allowed to wear a turbin in the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police). For anybody who doesn't know, those are the stereotypical Canadian police in the red and black uniform with the ranger's cap and the horses (which is only ceremonial, btw). The man knew when he applied to the RCMP that the hat was part of Canadian ceremonial tradition, yet he fought not to wear it and actually won... Why is it that Canadian traditions have to take a back seat to other traditions? I don't understand it. This is our country yet we're treated like the guests a lot of the times. You have a freedom of religion and freedom of expression in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, yes, but take that in context with the what's going on around you. No one in Canada is telling you not to believe in your faith. We're just telling you that in certain circumstances, you may have to abide by Canadian tradition over your own, and that's what happens when you move to another country.
Another one that bothered me, but thankfully was ruled against, was when one of the Middle-Eastern religions argued that their young son should be able to bring a Kerpan to school. A Kerpan is a 9 inch ceremonial knife. Excuse me? A large knife in school? No. End of story.
Like I said, I have friends of every possible decent, I have nothing against the people or them believing what they wish. But I really have had enough of Canadian laws, regulations, and traditions taking a back seat to other nations' beliefs in what should be no-brainer cases, which unfortunately, often go the wrong way on the common sense spectrum.
Wear a helmet, something tells me your beliefs won't safe your skull from an oak tree. Wear the Canadian ceremonial hat. It's our tradition. And don't bring a knife to school, come on... |
In Quebec, perhaps, that was ruled against, Valathous. Here in British Columbia, it was ruled that it is, actually a breach of human rights, in about 36% of all school boards, and is allowed. The annoying part about it is not so much, atleast in my view, that 74% of them ruled against, but that "Acceptance" is stretched to the point where in those 35% of school districts, these children are the ONLY people allowed to arm themselves at school. Therefore, the teachers, principles, hall monitors, and other students are at a serious disadvantage.
In 1 school board district, however, a unique tribal tradition, involving the teaching of blade-battle styles has left those students at a disadvantage. In this community, only members of the local native tribe are permitted to arm themselves, and most of the teachers are of that tribe. So it swings both ways, I suppose.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:49 pm |
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I'm actually in Ontario, not Quebec,  . And it was an Ontario case. I thought it had reached the Supreme Court of Canada, however. To hear that it's actually allowed in B.C. disturbs me. Knives have no place in school unless it's something like an art class, shop class, or a medical scalpal in a science room, of course. I don't care if it's ceremonial, it's a weapon and it's at a school. If I were to bring one to school I'd be arrested, and rightfully so.
Perhaps France has it right. You're free to practice whatever religion you want but NO religious symbols are allowed in public schools no matter what religion you are. Though, I really have no problems with most religious jewelry or apparel, so I wouldn't want it to go that far. I just don't want knives at school, and I want helmets on heads on a motocycle and the Mounty hat on a Mounty.
Another thing that happened here in Toronto that really angered me was a man killed his daughter because she refused to wear the full women's garb. She's living in Toronto and is free to wear what she wants, so she did but her father killed her for it because he wanted her in full thing. Guess what? Once you come here that's a choice, buddy. He's going to jail, 
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:18 am |
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| Valathous wrote: | I'm actually in Ontario, not Quebec, . And it was an Ontario case. I thought it had reached the Supreme Court of Canada, however. To hear that it's actually allowed in B.C. disturbs me. Knives have no place in school unless it's something like an art class, shop class, or a medical scalpal in a science room, of course. I don't care if it's ceremonial, it's a weapon and it's at a school. If I were to bring one to school I'd be arrested, and rightfully so.
Perhaps France has it right. You're free to practice whatever religion you want but NO religious symbols are allowed in public schools no matter what religion you are. Though, I really have no problems with most religious jewelry or apparel, so I wouldn't want it to go that far. I just don't want knives at school, and I want helmets on heads on a motocycle and the Mounty hat on a Mounty.
Another thing that happened here in Toronto that really angered me was a man killed his daughter because she refused to wear the full women's garb. She's living in Toronto and is free to wear what she wants, so she did but her father killed her for it because he wanted her in full thing. Guess what? Once you come here that's a choice, buddy. He's going to jail, |
Ugh. Indeed. I actually found out something interesting today, from a friend. Apparently, if they remove those knives from thier' sheathes, they are RELIGIOUSLY REQUIRED TO DRAW BLOOD.
So think about that. A school with a few kids with these things, against a school of unarmed children, teachers, "Security" hall monitors, and other administrative staff. And if that knife falls out of it's sheath, they HAVE to draw blood. Do you really think they are going to aim for someone ELSE with one of these knives, with so many "helpless sheep" around?
The one in Toronto pisses me off too. As you said, this is Canada. Glad he's doing jail time.
I think perhaps the worst part is, despite the fact that I am pagan, not christian, I still grew up in a predominantly christian family, so being told I can't wish people a merry christmas, or enjoy a "christmas concert", really disturbs me. I admit, in the defence of political correctness, that these events may annoy some people. But it's also a tradition that's been going on for atleast a hundred years, here in British Columbia. Heck, in most NATIVE communities, Christmas is celebrated((Not necessarily in the same way, but in respect of the religion.)).
Another good one for you, Valathous.
A man comes to Canada on a bogus passport.
He gets a deportation order.
He has a stroke, causing a brain aneurism.
Now the entire community he belongs to has him holed up in a religious shrine, claiming sanctuary, saying he can't go back to the country he's from, because they have a poor health care system.
The amusing part is that this country actually has, a top-rate medical system. It's just expensive. And the man comes from a rich family.
So the question is... why can't the Canadian Border Services deport him?
And as an added insult to injury, when it was discovered that the CBS intended to do a late-night raid on this shrine, they moved him, in broad day-light, to a different shrine, in a more remote area, which has a proper surveilance system.
ADT is now protecting a government fugitive. That's gotta be great for business.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:27 pm |
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| Valathous wrote: |
Another thing that happened here in Toronto that really angered me was a man killed his daughter because she refused to wear the full women's garb. She's living in Toronto and is free to wear what she wants, so she did but her father killed her for it because he wanted her in full thing. Guess what? Once you come here that's a choice, buddy. He's going to jail, |
Not to take away from the seriousness of all of this, but there was actually a Law & Order: SVU episode biased on this sort of thing. A middle eastern family was living in NY, and basically it was the same idea, the daughter was living the American life, and her family was 'shamed' so the brother killed her to try and regain the family's honor. Naturally he tried to flee and all and was arrested, but at the trial, the defense tried to argue religions rights/freedom/whatever one wants to call it.
The point to that, is that I agree, believes is one thing, laws in other countries is another, but when a persons life is taken away over "religion" then one needs to pay the price.
With that, I also agree that respecting ones believes can also go to far, being treated as guest in your own native country? Oi. It's dump to protest because your required to wear a life saving (potentially life saving) device at the work place.
I also agree the Knifes in school, due to beliefs is a major mistake.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:44 pm |
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On that subject; A set of Sixtuplets in British Columbia, had to be CONFISCATED BY THE MINISTRY OF FAMILY AND CHILDREN SERVICES, so they could recieve blood transfusions, as part of a medical treatment, that they would have died without.
This durastic, and never-before used power of the ministry was required because the parents were JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.
Needless to say, when it came to court a few months ago, the family lost, because the Ministry was doing it's job. It's raised a great contraversy over wether or not the Ministry has the right to violate freedom of Religion in such a way, but the Minister in question pointed out the kids were not old enough to understand religion, and were thus, Athiest. Quite a brilliant argument from my point of view.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:41 pm |
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Not understanding religon does not equal athiest. Although, I do agree that we should rely on medical science, rather then prayer during an illness.
As for the topic, I don't even understand what the complaint is here. Are you complaining because Sikhs don't want to cover their heads with other objects? Um...ok...
This topic seems to be talking about adapting to fit into the country where one lives. Ok, fair enough. I agree within reason that one must adapt to survive in another location and the country shouldn't have to change (too much) to fit your needs.
But some things are going too far to complain. For example, the a European nation (I think France, but I have to recheck that) wanted to ban the wearing of the Hijab. In the UK that is also a controversial action being discussed. Why? Why does it affect you if a woman wears a head covering? It's stupid to complain about that.
In the case of the Sikh, yes he is putting himself in danger. I don't understand why he is working at a place that forces him to cover his head when he doesn't want it. As for the motorcycle helmet...eh. If he wants to put himself in danger, let him. Tons of people in the US don't wear helmets while on motorcycles from what I've seen. Let them be dumb.
Since you seem to dislike people not adapting to "your" country, I take it that if you moved to another nation, you would adapt to their standards? If you lived in a Muslim nation, you'd follow halal (sp?) while eating right? I just want to understand that this is a discussion about people, no matter what religion/race, should adapt to the nation that they live in.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:18 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | Not understanding religon does not equal athiest. Although, I do agree that we should rely on medical science, rather then prayer during an illness.
As for the topic, I don't even understand what the complaint is here. Are you complaining because Sikhs don't want to cover their heads with other objects? Um...ok...
This topic seems to be talking about adapting to fit into the country where one lives. Ok, fair enough. I agree within reason that one must adapt to survive in another location and the country shouldn't have to change (too much) to fit your needs.
But some things are going too far to complain. For example, the a European nation (I think France, but I have to recheck that) wanted to ban the wearing of the Hijab. In the UK that is also a controversial action being discussed. Why? Why does it affect you if a woman wears a head covering? It's stupid to complain about that.
In the case of the Sikh, yes he is putting himself in danger. I don't understand why he is working at a place that forces him to cover his head when he doesn't want it. As for the motorcycle helmet...eh. If he wants to put himself in danger, let him. Tons of people in the US don't wear helmets while on motorcycles from what I've seen. Let them be dumb.
Since you seem to dislike people not adapting to "your" country, I take it that if you moved to another nation, you would adapt to their standards? If you lived in a Muslim nation, you'd follow halal (sp?) while eating right? I just want to understand that this is a discussion about people, no matter what religion/race, should adapt to the nation that they live in. |
Actually, Mr. Founder, the point of this topic is to elaborate your' opinion on where the line should be drawn between "Religious Freedoms" and "Equality".
And yes. If I moved to another nation, I would follow thier' rules, and regulations. Why? That's what they are there for.
While I admit Immigration has it's advantages((Pizza places open on Thanksgiving, for example, I know, a Bad one. But to me, it's important.  )), I also want to highlight that while you are free to practice your' religion, there are some laws that are either there for society, or your' safety, which EVERYONE((IE: Equality)) should be applied to.
The term "Equality" which everyone wants, when they come to US, or Canada, is often misguided, in thier' definition.
"Equality" means that everyone has to follow the same rules, and is expected to give the same amount of respect to eachother, as well as not being treated as a lesser entity.
"Discrimination" is also a term which I note frequently is under a rather large public misnomer.
It is exactly that. That a specific group is bieng targetted, because they belong to that group. Wether it be race, religion, whatever, I don't care.
What I DO have complaints about is the fact that many people see "Discrimination" where "Equality" is bieng enforced, and demanding "Favoritism".
"Favoritism" is the exact opposite of "Discrimination". It's when a group believes, because they belong to that group, that the rules and/or laws do not apply. Wether this is race, religion, whatever, let's not discriminate. If they came to this country searching for Equality, then perhaps they should stop seeking out Favoritism, while thier' at it?
I for one am tired of bieng discriminated against((In the actual sense of the word.)).
I am tired of special groups getting special exemptions to the law because of whatever other-than-legal reason, and I don't believe it has a place in any truly "Free and Equal" country, as Canada, and the United States claim to be. And interestingly enough, it appears I'm not the only one with this opinion.
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