Would the Federation have won the war without Garak?

Valathous · Last edited by Valathous on Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

After watching "In the Pale Moonlight", one has to wonder, would the Federation have won the war without Garak? This was a man who single-handedly brought the Romulan Empire into the war on the Federation's side against the Dominion in a battle they were clearly losing.

What if he had not been banished from Cardassia? What if Tain had not remained behind after their attack on the Dominion, thereby bringing Garak back with him to Cardassia after they mended their relationship? Or if the Doctor hadn't fixed his implant issue. All such minor things on their own could have affected the lives of millions.

There's no doubt that Sisko's attempts would have stopped right then and there to bring the Dominion in. You could tell by his commontary. He was expecting backlash, rage, and figured he had killed any chance at an alliance.

Funny how the politics and outcome of an entire region could have been completely different based on the actions of plain, simple Garak the tailor.

La Forge · **Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:54 pm**

Never thought of that, but, yeah, I think you've got a point there. I don't think the Federation would've won without our one and only suit-makin' mystery man.

Founder

Valathous · **Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:09 am**

Some of those, such as finding the cure and Odo being able to link wouldn't have made much of a difference since the Founders would have died others. In that instance the war would have come to a screeching halt, too since the Jem'Hadar wouldn't have their gods or their white.

As far as I'm aware, some of the Cardassians were on the verge of rebelling anyways. They just wanted Kira's guidance to help them. Perhaps it wouldn't have been successful, but they probably would have rebelled anyways.

The Prophets weren't about to let Sisko die due to their visions. And hey, if they did, I'm sure they could bring him back somehow. Afterall, they made an entire fleet disappear.

Garak rejoining the Cardassians or being assassinated in that ep as was planned, or even died in "The Wire" could have had a huge impact, moreso than the other events you mentioned.

Kathryn_Janeway218 · **Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:37 pm**

Personally I wouldn't know because I didn't watch DS9.

Valathous · **Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:05 pm**

Then don't post in the topic,

All that is, is a post for the sake of posting, which is considered spam and against the rules.

lifeguide · **Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:20 pm**

Absolutely positive correct.

He not only influenced all the issues mentioned but also was able to find time to have a romance, teach the doctor and Nog about the pros and cons of military strategy and become the greatest tailor in the sector.

Talk about multitasking

Founder · **Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:59 pm**

Valathous · **Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:04 pm**

No, the Jem'Hadar would not have gone on a blood lust to avenge their gods. First of all, without the founders to produce the white, as long as the Federation could hold out long enough, the Jem'Hadar would eventually all die.

Second off all, in the episode "The Ship" all the Jem'Hadar kill themselves when the Founder dies because they failed to protect it. If they killed themselves over one dying, I doubt they'd feel any better if tey allowed all of them to die.

Founder · **Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:37 pm**

Valathous · **Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:46 pm**

This may be true, but even as the female Founder says, they'd still win. They wouldn't be subjects to the Dominion. They'd be able to rebuild. Would they have been able to do anything if the Romulans weren't brought into the war to take on the Dominion A) on another front B) offering the Fed more ships in big battles.

Had the Romulans not entered, perhaps the Dominion wins before they contract the diseased, or if they'd contracted it already, perhaps they could have won and forced the Federation to give them the cure or face genocide on Earth.

Lord Borg · **Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:08 pm**

They'd (Federation) would have ultimately won. It'd have been costly, but an episode pointed out (I think with the smart people) that while it'd probably fall at first, The Fed would be strong enough again by the 2380's to begin an effective resistance, fighting the Dominion once again and eventually wining that war. The idea of getting the Romulans into the war was to try and avoid prolonged war, which nearly happened anyways had they not pressed on at Cardassia.

squiggy · **Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:31 am**

Perhaps Garak wasn't directly required to win the war, but you have to admit, without him, it would have made Sisko's job alot more hard to handle.
Not to mention... who'd fix all the broken uniforms?

Founder · **Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:54 pm**

I'm not arguing that the Federation would'nt win in the end, but without Bashir's cure and Odo's sacrifice, the loss would be terrible and possibly too much for the Federation-Klingon-Romulans to bounce back from.

I guess I gave a very bad example with Sisko. How about Sisko dying at Wolf 359? If he had died there, then the entire galaxy would have been screwed as Dukat/Pah-Wraith said they would consume the entire galaxy in flames. Not to mention, Sisko led the Federation to many victories in that war.

My initial point is that if you took out almost any of the characters, the Dominion might have won. If Rom hadn't made those self-replicating mines, then the Dominion would have overrun the Federation. So on and so on.

I'm not arguing that Garak wasn't important. Without him, the Federation might have lost the war, amongst more.

Spartan 688 · Ensign Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 57

well by that time the U.S.S promethus would have been made and no ship could equal it it would shred dominion fleets plus read admiral chris wallace had called for the remaing 3 galaxy class ships to be put in to production in all truth the federations fleet was built for comabt and ocne the dominion came rear admiral chris wallace start changing the ships fleet roles to be multi purposed ships so intrepid class and norway class ships went in to mass production(inexpensive adn quickly made ships) also the sovriegn class was put in to full scale constuction as well including his reforms at star fleet academy to make it quicker for people to get ona ship in the long run the federation would have easly wiped the dominion from the alpha quadrant
especially with the help of the KDF also plus the galaxy classes were due for a refit to galaxy class 2 specs so i think the federation would have one either way and garak you forget wasn't jsut a tailor he was a spy adn his dad was incharge of the obsidian order ....

Valathous · **Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:37 am**

Lord Borg · **Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:48 am**

For the record, no canon mentioned of a build time for a Soverign-class has been made, but, the USS Enterprise-E was launched in the year 2372, and Ronald D. Moore has commented that he feels (or worked with the assumption that) the keel of the Enterprise (Basically the start of the frame) was laid in TNG's final season, which was 2370. If that is true, then yeah, basically 2 years, give or take.

I'm sure they could have ultimately won the war, with or without Garak, an episode of DS9 once said, even if they lost the war now, by 2385 (I think it was then, maybe earlier) an effective resistance could have risen and combat the Dominion enough to retake what was lost.

The Prometheus was cool, but Dominion and Breen weaponry had proven to over power Starfleet shield technology, which has often been said to be pretty strong. As Valathous pointed out, larger ships take time, and Starfleet was trying to pump out whatever they could I mean, they had Miranda class ships at the battles, and TNG showed the class to be transports by that time period.

Anyways, I just realized I repeated some stuff I had already said, but in short, without Garak or the Romulans, the war would have ultimately been won by the Alliance, it'd have just been more costly for all sides involved.

Spartan 688 · Ensign Joined: 11 Nov 2007 Posts: 57

Valathous · **Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:31 am**

Another Garak incident could have ended the war before it started. In the episode where the Founders take away Odo's powers Garak attempted to take control of the Defiant's quantum torpedo launches, which would have decimated all of the Founders until Worf stopped him.

It would seem once again as though Garak knows best. Sure it'd be genocide, but it would have saved millions of lives of others from many different species.