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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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 Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:39 am |
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| Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. And not all christians force christianity on people like people lead to think. But, I would want a president that has good morals.. and in my opinion .. it is not going to be a democrat especially obama or hilary. |
Either of whom I'd rather see in the white house, over McCain((and since the Republicans clearly are deciding McCain, it may be exactly that.)), however I personally would prefer HILARY over Obama... Mainly because I find her, and her ideas very fascinating, and she's a little more potent in my books.
And Debs, while NOT ALL Christians do it, an overwhelming percentage of the population does. Just a point to make.
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beansidhe
Ensign, Junior Grade
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 42
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| Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:21 pm |
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| Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. And not all christians force christianity on people like people lead to think. |
No, not all do. I'd say most don't.
But Huckabee wants to rewrite the Constitution to reflect his view that this is a Christian nation and only a Christian nation.
While Theresa's right, it won't happen, it *is* IMO enough for me to vote against him.
And I don't consider that nit-picking.
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Debra
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 444
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| Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:04 pm |
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Oh I don't like huckabee. I don't share his relgious beliefs cause he is mormon... he believes there's another bible continuing from the original bible... and he believes in certain things I myself a christian don't believe in. I am not saying change the whole constution christian but at least have good morals... ... who will protect america, help other countries, don't negotiate with terrorists, who is against abortions... and so forth. It doesn't have to change the whole constitution. huckabee is an over zealous mormon if I am correct. I heard that he is a mormon. I have to go check.
I am rootin for Mccain.. I don't know if he is christian but at least he isn't a democrat.  that's all I am saying at the moment... i say more over the weekend when I have more time on my hands.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:09 pm |
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| Debra wrote: | Oh I don't like huckabee. I don't share his relgious beliefs cause he is mormon... he believes there's another bible continuing from the original bible... and he believes in certain things I myself a christian don't believe in. I am not saying change the whole constution christian but at least have good morals... ... who will protect america, help other countries, don't negotiate with terrorists, who is against abortions... and so forth. It doesn't have to change the whole constitution. huckabee is an over zealous mormon if I am correct. I heard that he is a mormon. I have to go check.
I am rootin for Mccain.. I don't know if he is christian but at least he isn't a democrat. that's all I am saying at the moment... i say more over the weekend when I have more time on my hands. |
With the exception of the abortion debate... I would partially agree with you. But as to the 'help other countries', may I point out that while the U.S. has been marginally effective in 'liberating' the middle east((mind you, there's a lot still to do)), it has cost thousands of lives, both american, UN-alliance, and civilian, not just Al Quida, and it has cost Trillions of Dollars?
As to the abortion debate.. it's a woman's body. If things like forced intercourse, or a drunken/drugged up one night stand spawn a birth, I believe it should be her RIGHT to be able to abort. Some people also can't afford to raise a child. I've seen too many people commit suicide because of events like this.
But I'm glad that Huckabee apparently doesn't stand a bloody chance, according to the opinion polls.
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beansidhe
Ensign, Junior Grade
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 42
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| Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:42 pm |
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| Debra wrote: | | Oh I don't like huckabee. I don't share his relgious beliefs cause he is mormon... |
Huckabee is a Southern Baptist.
Romney's the Mormon.
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Debra
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 26 May 2007
Posts: 444
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| Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:19 pm |
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thanks beansidhe , i wasn't sure if he was mormon or something else... i just heard. i just got them mixed up then lol
And I.know i edited again.. i thought i wasnt voting for mccain... but not real sure... just not for no hilary or obama.
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robbiewebster
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 2594
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:03 pm |
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yea huckabee is an evangelical pastor.
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Omok
Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:32 am |
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| Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. |
As opposed to "bad Jewish morals"?
I guess your statement is just vague enough that you can get away with thinking it non-confrontational, but it brings to mind (for me at least) religious bigotry and the same type of zealotry that we've dealt with for the past 8 years.
I think it would be a good idea to remember that the Constitution mentions no specific deity, it simply says "God", not Jehovah, not Yahweh, and not Allah...just "God".
Even Thomas Jefferson, the 3rd President and principal author of the Declaration of Independence, had a personal copy of the Qur'an.
I'd love to see if a few of the people involved in this discussion could admit that "Christians" do not have an exclusive contract with "God" and a singular hold on what is referred to as "morals/values".
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:34 pm |
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| Omok wrote: | | Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. |
As opposed to "bad Jewish morals"?
I guess your statement is just vague enough that you can get away with thinking it non-confrontational, but it brings to mind (for me at least) religious bigotry and the same type of zealotry that we've dealt with for the past 8 years.
I think it would be a good idea to remember that the Constitution mentions no specific deity, it simply says "God", not Jehovah, not Yahweh, and not Allah...just "God".
Even Thomas Jefferson, the 3rd President and principal author of the Declaration of Independence, had a personal copy of the Qur'an.
I'd love to see if a few of the people involved in this discussion could admit that "Christians" do not have an exclusive contract with "God" and a singular hold on what is referred to as "morals/values". |
Or "bad pagan values". I'm totally behind you on this one.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:45 pm |
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| Omok wrote: | | Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. |
As opposed to "bad Jewish morals"? |
Or perhaps as opposed to "bad Christian morals." Christianity is littered with events that took place in the name of morality that Christians admit weren't so good.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:17 pm |
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Indeed. This is exactly why I say vote for someone based on what they intend to do. Not because they are of your' religion, or share your' religious views.
I personally do not care wether someone were pagan or not, I vote strictly on thier' stance on the views I find important... so I find the concept of voting strictly because of religion disgusting. Especially when 'good christian values' candidates want to rob women of the choice to have an abortion, or pull stints like cramming christianity down everyone's throat((which is commonly seen in schools..... not going to much further into that... but learning how to count by counting christmas stockings is not a very unreligious way of learning...)), or something along the like.
Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but what happened to voting for someone who would actually be a positive effect on the world, country, state/province, and city you live in?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:22 pm |
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| squiggy wrote: | | I personally do not care wether someone were pagan or not, I vote strictly on thier' stance on the views I find important... so I find the concept of voting strictly because of religion disgusting. |
If people are voting because of their (the candidate's) stance on the views they find important, then how is voting based on religion disgusting? Perhaps their religious views align with the candidate's because of religion. People place different priorities on different issues.
The point of being able to vote is for the ability to vote based on your own wants and needs.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Omok
Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:24 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Omok wrote: | | Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. |
As opposed to "bad Jewish morals"? |
Or perhaps as opposed to "bad Christian morals." Christianity is littered with events that took place in the name of morality that Christians admit weren't so good. |
Right, which sort of answers your question:
"If people are voting because of their (the candidate's) stance on the views they find important, then how is voting based on religion disgusting?"
| Quote: | | Perhaps their religious views align with the candidate's because of religion. People place different priorities on different issues. |
I'm sorry, but that's akin to thinking that someone with the same haircut as you would be a good President...
There is no objective way to determine a candidates exact religious views, unless they spell it out in a manifesto of sorts, which would completely turn me off, as I think the President should be a leader of government, and not a "religious leader"...especially considering the First Amendment.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:54 pm |
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| Omok wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Omok wrote: | | Debra wrote: | | I rather have a president with good christian morals.. |
As opposed to "bad Jewish morals"? |
Or perhaps as opposed to "bad Christian morals." Christianity is littered with events that took place in the name of morality that Christians admit weren't so good. |
Right, which sort of answers your question:
"If people are voting because of their (the candidate's) stance on the views they find important, then how is voting based on religion disgusting?" |
Actually, it doesn't. If you know anything about Christianity, you know that Christians admit to these faults and worked toward correcting them. Today's morals are different than those of the past.
| Omok wrote: | I'm sorry, but that's akin to thinking that someone with the same haircut as you would be a good President...
There is no objective way to determine a candidates exact religious views, unless they spell it out in a manifesto of sorts, which would completely turn me off, as I think the President should be a leader of government, and not a "religious leader"...especially considering the First Amendment. |
I guess I just don't see how voting for a candidate because their views are similar to your own is like voting for somebody with the same haircut. So what if those views are influenced by religion? Everybody's views are influenced some way or another, we are products of our envirionment.
And you can gather most of a candidate's religious views based on their stance on certain issues, such as gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, etc.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:23 pm |
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I suppose. But what I had intended to word it as, was not to vote for someone because they like your' religion. Maybe there are things about them beyond thier' beliefs... ulterior motives, which people ignore. And the haircut thing... it's well... I see the point he's trying to make. A haircut is something you do to style yourself... in essence, to give you a 'personalized' look. If someone else had the same haircut...
Yeah...
And as a thought...
| Quote: |
Actually, it doesn't. If you know anything about Christianity, you know that Christians admit to these faults and worked toward correcting them. Today's morals are different than those of the past.
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If Christians admit to these faults, why are they still trying to elect people who will change the constitution, and shove christianity down other's throats?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:37 pm |
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I don't see how voting for somebody whose beliefs are influenced by Christianity is "shoving it down their throats." One could easily say that by voting for a liberal candidate, you'd be shoving secularism down other's throats.
I was referencing things like Crusades and the selling of indulgences when I was speaking of the past.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:25 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I don't see how voting for somebody whose beliefs are influenced by Christianity is "shoving it down their throats." One could easily say that by voting for a liberal candidate, you'd be shoving secularism down other's throats.
I was referencing things like Crusades and the selling of indulgences when I was speaking of the past. |
Or perhaps the witch trials? Did you know that a form of paganism is STILL illegal in several states?
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robbiewebster
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 2594
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:39 pm |
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did you know that murdering unborn children is still legal in most places?
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:03 am |
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Well, to start with, you can't tell people how they should make the choice of who to vote for. I think we all know that. My personal take on this religion thing is that it really depends on the person. I am not religious. I take offense to people like Mike Huckabee for making his religion so terribly public to the point that it alienates people like me. I'm perfectly fine with voting for a religious candidate--in fact, I am. Obama is a slef-proclaimed Christian. What I do have a problem with is public officials bandying about their religion so blatantly that I feel it compromises their jobs to stand for many people. Just because Christianity dominates this country does not mean they should trample over the minority, as they often do. What I'm talking about is the difference between "I'm against abortion because the bible says..." and "I'm against abortion because I believe it is murder."
Now, of course, all of these views are based on my own personal and spiritual beliefs. I could care less what religion a person claims to be; I have devout Christian, Satanist, and atheist friends (who somehow end up in the same places sometimes). I respect and honor their religion/faith (or lack thereof), as long as they do not insult me by trying to destroy my own deeply-held faith. Likewise, I do not try to dissuade them from their beliefs.
What I think really doesn't matter, because people will still be voting based on religion, skin color, gender... it's kind of the way it goes.
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Omok
Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
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| Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:21 pm |
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| Quote: | | Today's morals are different than those of the past. |
Really? Has there been some new commandments added that I'm unaware of? Or, has there been another Council of Nicaea?
| Quote: | | I guess I just don't see how voting for a candidate because their views are similar to your own is like voting for somebody with the same haircut. |
The former is no less arbitrary or irrelevant than the latter.
| Quote: | | Everybody's views are influenced some way or another, we are products of our environment. |
So you believe that free will is a myth?
| Quote: | | And you can gather most of a candidate's religious views based on their stance on certain issues, such as gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, etc. |
What about an atheist who disagrees with abortion? Or "Christians" that have no problem with abortion, or any of those other issues?[/quote]
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beansidhe
Ensign, Junior Grade
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 42
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| Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:00 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I don't see how voting for somebody whose beliefs are influenced by Christianity is "shoving it down their throats." |
Obama's beliefs are influenced by Christianity.
Huckabee wants to *change the Constitution* to make this a Christian nation.
Do you not see the difference? Do you not see the problem non-Christians (or liberal Christians, for that matter) might have with Huckabee?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:43 pm |
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| Omok wrote: | | Really? Has there been some new commandments added that I'm unaware of? Or, has there been another Council of Nicaea? |
I'm sorry, I supposed I should have specified that today's interpretation of morals is different than the past's.
| Omok wrote: | | So you believe that free will is a myth? |
Did I say that? Do you believe that years of psychological and psychiatric research is a myth? As I said, we are influenced by our environments, not told what to do.
| Omok wrote: | | What about an atheist who disagrees with abortion? Or "Christians" that have no problem with abortion, or any of those other issues? |
By this point does it matter what religion a candidate is? The point is that the voter's religious views align with the candidate's, despite what religion they are.
| beansidhe wrote: | Obama's beliefs are influenced by Christianity.
Huckabee wants to *change the Constitution* to make this a Christian nation.
Do you not see the difference? Do you not see the problem non-Christians (or liberal Christians, for that matter) might have with Huckabee? |
Yes, I see the difference; however, as I said, I don't see how voting for a candidate is shoving religion down people's throats. If we have a leader who is willing to make such changes, like Huckabee, then that would be shoving religion down people's throats, yet voting is a different story. I'll admit that the idea that people are willing to vote for such a candidate is frightening, but it's their right.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:18 pm |
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The president is NOT pastor-in-chief. We need to elect based on political views, not religios ones.
If you're against (for example) gay marriage, for religious reasons, fine keep it to yourself. If you've got a legit political reason, then more power to you.
Laws cannot be passed because "it's a sin". Laws like that make the Republican party hypocritical, and stand for no smaller government than Democrats.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:43 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | The president is NOT pastor-in-chief. We need to elect based on political views, not religios ones.
If you're against (for example) gay marriage, for religious reasons, fine keep it to yourself. If you've got a legit political reason, then more power to you.
Laws cannot be passed because "it's a sin". Laws like that make the Republican party hypocritical, and stand for no smaller government than Democrats. |
Again, I find myself in complete agreement with you. Religion and Politics make bad bedfellows.
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robbiewebster
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 2594
Location: Rochester, New York
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| Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:44 pm |
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There's nothing wrong with voting based on religious beliefs. How many African Americans are going to vote for Obama because he's black. You wouldn't tell them that they're wrong to do so.
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