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jose cuervo
Ensign, Junior Grade
Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 32
Location: MA
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 Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:30 am Iraq Body Count |
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I was just browsing the net and i found this website displaying the estimated number of civilians who have been killed since the war in Iraq began. Take a look!
http://iraqbodycount.org/
I think it's utterly disgusting. The product greed and deceit, ignorance and stupidity. 
Human lives reduced to numbers on the internet. "Operation Iraqi Freedom", eh?
What are your thoughts?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 4:14 am |
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Considering the fact that most, obviously not all, of these Iraqis were killed be "freedom fighters", AKA fellow Iraqis; it's hard to not want to come down harder on the terrorists.
I'm not saying that our troops are throwing out roses to the crowd, but it's rather duplicitous on your part to not at least admit that the Iraqis are killing their own people and contributing to the high death toll.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:45 am |
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^Never the less the 'catalyst' for the toll is direct result thanks to your president, UK prime minister and our prime minister (and his visions on us being 'new america'  )
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Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:24 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | ^Never the less the 'catalyst' for the toll is direct result thanks to your president, UK prime minister and our prime minister (and his visions on us being 'new america' ) |
But they don't, at least IMO, bear all or even most of the blame for the carnage, because they're not the ones ordering car bombs and death squads around. It's not like you can just drop all the blame on our leaders for starting the war and leave the terrorists themselves blameless. That only leaves them free to continue their rampage.
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:44 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | Considering the fact that most, obviously not all, of these Iraqis were killed be "freedom fighters", AKA fellow Iraqis; it's hard to not want to come down harder on the terrorists.
I'm not saying that our troops are throwing out roses to the crowd, but it's rather duplicitous on your part to not at least admit that the Iraqis are killing their own people and contributing to the high death toll. |
Would they be doing that if we were there?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:02 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | ^Never the less the 'catalyst' for the toll is direct result thanks to your president, UK prime minister and our prime minister (and his visions on us being 'new america' ) |
What does that have to do with anything? I didn't say I don't understand why the "freedom fighters" *wink wink* do this. I'm well aware of it, but the fact remains that I'm not going to take the fall for them mass killing their bretheran.
When America had its revolution, they didn't mass kill themselves. When the Muslims rebelled against the forces that had occupied Mecca, they did not kill themselves in record numbers. When India rebelled against England, they didn't kill Indian(minus the partition part, but that was for different reasons).
The argument that "you invaded them! they have a right to kill each other!!!!" is weak beyond relief. I won't have pity for the "freedom fighters" because they're killing their own people. It makes absolutely no sense and unlike others, I won't spare them of that accusation.
| WeAz wrote: | | Would they be doing that if we were there? |
You know, its posts like these that allow Conservatives to accuse Liberals of supporting terrorists. I've become much more liberal in my politics lately, but this is one thing that I can never agree with Liberals on. I'm not giving them a pass for the barbarity that they are unleashing against their own people.
Would they be doing that if we were there? What part of our "invasion" is "forcing" them to murder their own people. If they truly felt the need to rebel through violent means, surely they could do so without killing their own people in record numbers?
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:24 pm |
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I have to agree with Founder, here. While the US forces being there has contributed to the body count, the fact that these..."freedom fighters" are killing their own people has no excuse. Would they still be doing it if we were not there? Most likely.
-------signature-------
When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
And I held your hand through all of these years
But you still have
All of me
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:39 pm |
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So it's still less than the 300,000 Kurds that Saddam is estimated to have murdered. I guess there was plenty of violence before we got there.
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:19 pm |
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| Quote: | | "freedom fighters" are killing their own people has no excuse. |
The funny thing is, that the insurgency isn't just blowing up bombs in markets. Most of their attacks have been against the US Military, or the Iraqi government installations. I'm not defending their actions, but I have to correct you. What they do is bad either way.
But here's another question, why are we there? This country posed no threat to us, only to their own people. The US should not be the world police.
-------signature-------
At Least In Vietnam, Bush Had An Exit Strategy
It was Bush, not Clinton, who ignored the warning signs for 9/11.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:24 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | The US should not be the world police. |
We should probably wait to see whats going on with new Soviet policy before we say that too firmly  .
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:28 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | Quote: | | "freedom fighters" are killing their own people has no excuse. |
The funny thing is, that the insurgency isn't just blowing up bombs in markets. Most of their attacks have been against the US Military, or the Iraqi government installations. I'm not defending their actions, but I have to correct you. What they do is bad either way.
But here's another question, why are we there? This country posed no threat to us, only to their own people. The US should not be the world police. |
You're not correcting me because the information is false.
They've killed more of their people, then they have of ours. Far more. It's quite evident by the high Iraqi body count.
That question is irrelavent considering we're talking about the Iraqi body count, not if the war is legitimate. Also, you're attacking the wrong person as I said that I don't agree with this war and want out of Iraq. Just because I want out of Iraq does not mean that I applaud the terrorists. These people are murdering their own people and that's a fact you're just going to have to accept.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:06 am |
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| WeAz wrote: | | Quote: | | "freedom fighters" are killing their own people has no excuse. |
The funny thing is, that the insurgency isn't just blowing up bombs in markets. Most of their attacks have been against the US Military, or the Iraqi government installations. I'm not defending their actions, but I have to correct you. What they do is bad either way.
But here's another question, why are we there? This country posed no threat to us, only to their own people. The US should not be the world police. |
Bullcrap. They've also bombed hospitals, CIVILIAN hospitals, markets, etc.
And as to the US should not be the world police thing, there SHOULD be a world police defending the rights EVERYONE should have. And although I don't agree that the war in Iraq was founded on correct reasons, I applaud the United States for taking on a task no one else would.
So to our "World police", I say, thank you.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:11 am |
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| Kyle Reese wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | ^Never the less the 'catalyst' for the toll is direct result thanks to your president, UK prime minister and our prime minister (and his visions on us being 'new america' ) |
But they don't, at least IMO, bear all or even most of the blame for the carnage, because they're not the ones ordering car bombs and death squads around. It's not like you can just drop all the blame on our leaders for starting the war and leave the terrorists themselves blameless. That only leaves them free to continue their rampage. |
I never placed exclusive blame on the leaders... but stated that that was undoubtfully the catalyst.
It's amazing how people can get bent right out of shape when even a hint that America might also be in the wrong... even if it is a small part. You can't expect to be involved in a war and all be in the 100% right and proper side of it. Too many people are simply in denial refusing to see what is right in front of them.
Yes I admit the terrorists are by far at *MOST* to blame for the death toll.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:26 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | I never placed exclusive blame on the leaders... but stated that that was undoubtfully the catalyst.
It's amazing how people can get bent right out of shape when even a hint that America might also be in the wrong... even if it is a small part. You can't expect to be involved in a war and all be in the 100% right and proper side of it. Too many people are simply in denial refusing to see what is right in front of them.
Yes I admit the terrorists are by far at *MOST* to blame for the death toll. |
I don't think that anyone is really arguing that the American presence in Iraq is the catalyst. I even mentioned in my post that I'm aware that our troops aren't hugging Iraqis and whatnot. I know that America has a good amount of blame in this.
My point is that some of the Iraqis are to blame for the high death toll of the Iraqis. However, in this latest post, you did admit that, so it doesn't seem that you and I are in disagreement.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:30 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | I never placed exclusive blame on the leaders... but stated that that was undoubtfully the catalyst.
It's amazing how people can get bent right out of shape when even a hint that America might also be in the wrong... even if it is a small part. You can't expect to be involved in a war and all be in the 100% right and proper side of it. Too many people are simply in denial refusing to see what is right in front of them.
Yes I admit the terrorists are by far at *MOST* to blame for the death toll. |
I don't think that anyone is really arguing that the American presence in Iraq is the catalyst. I even mentioned in my post that I'm aware that our troops aren't hugging Iraqis and whatnot. I know that America has a good amount of blame in this.
My point is that some of the Iraqis are to blame for the high death toll of the Iraqis. However, in this latest post, you did admit that, so it doesn't seem that you and I are in disagreement. |
We are on the same wavelength here... for once  (just kidding!)
I just get highly irritated when Americans say that the Iraq war is all for good, solders are dying for good cause, it's not our fault it's theirs i'm not listening to anything else... its all Iraq this, Iraq that, weapons of mass destruction this, weapons of mass destruction that. What the hell is a weapon of mass destruction anyway? I'm sure other nations secretly have at *least* the capability of building ten fold more powerful WMD than Iraq ever had. IRAQ IS OVER AND WILL NEVER BE DEFEATED.
See where i'm getting at here..
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