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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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 Tue May 01, 2007 1:05 pm Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Quote: | LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Demonstrators demanding a path to citizenship for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants took to U.S. streets Tuesday while others lobbied Congress for action.
In southwest Detroit, which has a large Hispanic population, hundreds of people wore red and white, and carried American flags to a rally.
"Most of the undocumented people come here as a necessity of survival," said Rosendo Delgado, of Latinos United, one of the groups organizing the march. "For them, it's the only choice."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/01/immigration.protests.ap/index.html |
Thanks for gathering together, now lets get the cops checking documents. No document, get on the bus, you're going back across the border. You got kids? Take 'em with you.
I have no sympathy for those who come here illegally.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 01, 2007 1:33 pm Re: Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Quote: | LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- Demonstrators demanding a path to citizenship for an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants took to U.S. streets Tuesday while others lobbied Congress for action.
In southwest Detroit, which has a large Hispanic population, hundreds of people wore red and white, and carried American flags to a rally.
"Most of the undocumented people come here as a necessity of survival," said Rosendo Delgado, of Latinos United, one of the groups organizing the march. "For them, it's the only choice."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/01/immigration.protests.ap/index.html |
Thanks for gathering together, now lets get the cops checking documents. No document, get on the bus, you're going back across the border. You got kids? Take 'em with you.
I have no sympathy for those who come here illegally. |
How compassionate of you. Must be nice to be born in a nation where you can look down on others for trying to seek a better life.
There are so many Americans I wish I could force to live in other, poorer nations for the rest of their lives. Then those loud mouth people wouldn't dismiss these people are criminals. Well, if they still did, then they obviously lack the compassion and understanding that makes us Humans.
Not to mention, the U.S. is one of the chief reasons why Latin America is in such horrible condition.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue May 01, 2007 4:36 pm Re: Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Founder wrote: |
How compassionate of you. Must be nice to be born in a nation where you can look down on others for trying to seek a better life. |
Barking up the wrong tree my friend. My grandparents came here from Italy with Nothing. Nazi's and Blackshirts raided our farms and took everything down to the doors and windows. With almost no money and barely the clothes on their backs they immigrated to the US. Immigrated here LEGALLY to live a better life. They were able to succeed knowing very little about anything except how to cook. They were able to obtain a small to level house where they raised eight children.
| Founder wrote: | | There are so many Americans I wish I could force to live in other, poorer nations for the rest of their lives. Then those loud mouth people wouldn't dismiss these people are criminals. Well, if they still did, then they obviously lack the compassion and understanding that makes us Humans. |
Won't work on me. Hard to goad a person who's lived in poverty and had to struggle to make something of himself and help his family. I've worked since I was 12 to help make ends meet, just so we could live and eat. 8 hours of school, 8 hours of work, 8 hours of sleep. There comes a point in time where you lose your sense of time to the continuous, non changing days.
I dont berate these people for wanting a better life. But if you're going to do it, do it legally, like every other hard working person who's made or is trying to make something of themselves.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:06 pm Re: Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Founder wrote: |
How compassionate of you. Must be nice to be born in a nation where you can look down on others for trying to seek a better life. |
Barking up the wrong tree my friend. My grandparents came here from Italy with Nothing. Nazi's and Blackshirts raided our farms and took everything down to the doors and windows. With almost no money and barely the clothes on their backs they immigrated to the US. Immigrated here LEGALLY to live a better life. They were able to succeed knowing very little about anything except how to cook. They were able to obtain a small to level house where they raised eight children.
Those were different times and it's become much more strict on how to get into this country.
| Founder wrote: | | There are so many Americans I wish I could force to live in other, poorer nations for the rest of their lives. Then those loud mouth people wouldn't dismiss these people are criminals. Well, if they still did, then they obviously lack the compassion and understanding that makes us Humans. |
Won't work on me. Hard to goad a person who's lived in poverty and had to struggle to make something of himself and help his family. I've worked since I was 12 to help make ends meet, just so we could live and eat. 8 hours of school, 8 hours of work, 8 hours of sleep. There comes a point in time where you lose your sense of time to the continuous, non changing days.
Are you comparing the poverty you had to poverty they have in Latin America? Not to mention, your only one person. I have this weird feeling that those who support your anti-illegal immigrant beliefs are not all poverty stricken.
Not to mention, you may have lived in poverty but you lived in poverty in America. At least you have a job to slave in 8 hours a day. They don't have that. They come to this country just so they can work as many hours, sometimes more, as you do.
I dont berate these people for wanting a better life. But if you're going to do it, do it legally, like every other hard working person who's made or is trying to make something of themselves. |
It isn't as black and white as you're making it out ot be. It isn't as easy to enter this country as you claim. If it was, don't you think more of them would attempt to come in legally? It would save them the hassle of having to hide from immigration and being bereft of some benefits. On top of that, they wouldn't have to get crappy jobs and work for decent wages.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:10 pm Re: Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Founder wrote: | | There are so many Americans I wish I could force to live in other, poorer nations for the rest of their lives. Then those loud mouth people wouldn't dismiss these people are criminals. |
They are criminals though. If you refuse to recognize them as such, that's fine, but if we look at the law, then it's clear that they are criminals. That is not to say I would not help someone because they are illegal, but that doesn't invalidate the fact they are a criminal.
These rallies are such a waste of time, and do more to push me away from the side they would like me to be on. People come here illegally, and then instead of being thankful they are here, they get angry with the United States because they themselves broke the laws? That doesn't make any sense to me.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:16 pm Re: Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Puck wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | There are so many Americans I wish I could force to live in other, poorer nations for the rest of their lives. Then those loud mouth people wouldn't dismiss these people are criminals. |
They are criminals though. If you refuse to recognize them as such, that's fine, but if we look at the law, then it's clear that they are criminals. That is not to say I would not help someone because they are illegal, but that doesn't invalidate the fact they are a criminal.
Yes, in a legal term you could argue that point. Although, they have their own arguments for why they aren't criminals. Not to mention, when you say criminal you mean it in the sense that they broke an official law. When many call them that, they don't mean it in that sense but rather that they're just low lives that are coming here. That they're criminals before they even came here.
These rallies are such a waste of time, and do more to push me away from the side they would like me to be on. People come here illegally, and then instead of being thankful they are here, they get angry with the United States because they themselves broke the laws? That doesn't make any sense to me. |
Well...they were thankful until they started to be deported. They're not ungrateful for making it here. I'm Hispanic and I know many of them love this country. You don't go through hell to get here because you hate America. You do it, because you love it and want to escape a crap hole of a country and no, it isn't easy to do it legally.
As for the rallies being a waste of time. I agree in the sense that the law won't change, but I think they're done so it's in the political issues.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:27 pm |
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| Quote: | | You don't go through hell to get here because you hate America. You do it, because you love it and want to escape a crap hole of a country and no, it isn't easy to do it legally. |
And we don't make laws for foreigners - or any individual, for that matter - to break them and then get rewarded for it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:28 pm Re: Immigration marchers take to U.S. streets |
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| Founder wrote: | | Puck wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | There are so many Americans I wish I could force to live in other, poorer nations for the rest of their lives. Then those loud mouth people wouldn't dismiss these people are criminals. |
They are criminals though. If you refuse to recognize them as such, that's fine, but if we look at the law, then it's clear that they are criminals. That is not to say I would not help someone because they are illegal, but that doesn't invalidate the fact they are a criminal.
Yes, in a legal term you could argue that point. Although, they have their own arguments for why they aren't criminals. Not to mention, when you say criminal you mean it in the sense that they broke an official law. When many call them that, they don't mean it in that sense but rather that they're just low lives that are coming here. That they're criminals before they even came here.
These rallies are such a waste of time, and do more to push me away from the side they would like me to be on. People come here illegally, and then instead of being thankful they are here, they get angry with the United States because they themselves broke the laws? That doesn't make any sense to me. |
Well...they were thankful until they started to be deported. They're not ungrateful for making it here. I'm Hispanic and I know many of them love this country. You don't go through hell to get here because you hate America. You do it, because you love it and want to escape a crap hole of a country and no, it isn't easy to do it legally.
As for the rallies being a waste of time. I agree in the sense that the law won't change, but I think they're done so it's in the political issues. |
It is not our fault that they are being deported. It's not as if they did not know that that was a consequence if they were caught breaking the law. Our country has a right to enforce just laws, and in this case, the main concern (imo) is safety. They are not here legally, and we cannot just assume that even though most of them tend to be generally good people, that they are indeed so. On the contrary, many people feel that if they broke the law to get here, what does that show about how much respect they have for the US and her laws.
Now, I would like it to be said that I would very much hope that in the future, it will be easier for more Hispanic immigrants to legally enter the US. Immigration is what makes America, and I have no objection to Hispanics coming to the United States, whether it be because they like the US, or simply want a job. I hope that we will make the immigration process easier for them. The statue of liberty says it, and I think the US should try to uphold the dignity of the human person by welcoming all:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:36 pm |
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| Quote: | | On the contrary, many people feel that if they broke the law to get here, what does that show about how much respect they have for the US and her laws. |
Not only that, but those that feel that way know and respect the law. It's not just a feeling - it's a feeling based on the letter of the law.
There's a word those supportive of illegal immigration seem to not understand, and it's an important word: illegal. Illegal. Can I get a definition, please?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:42 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | There's a word those supportive of illegal immigration seem to not understand, and it's an important word: illegal. Illegal. Can I get a definition, please? |
The problem is though that many feel compassion towards these people. I know I do, because I think every immigrant (legal and illegal) I have met has been an honest hard working person. I want those people to be Americans. I want people living here because they want their kids to have a better life. The only problem is the law (while it may indeed be a just and well intended law) gets in the way of that. That's why I say, let's just make it easier for them to come over.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:46 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | There's a word those supportive of illegal immigration seem to not understand, and it's an important word: illegal. Illegal. Can I get a definition, please? |
The problem is though that many feel compassion towards these people. I know I do, because I think every immigrant (legal and illegal) I have met has been an honest hard working person. I want those people to be Americans. I want people living here because they want their kids to have a better life. The only problem is the law (while it may indeed be a just and well intended law) gets in the way of that. That's why I say, let's just make it easier for them to come over. |
I wholeheartedly agree, but increasing the amount of legals let in from Mexico (as we certainly should) is far from the only thing that needs to be done.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 01, 2007 6:48 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Quote: | | You don't go through hell to get here because you hate America. You do it, because you love it and want to escape a crap hole of a country and no, it isn't easy to do it legally. |
And we don't make laws for foreigners - or any individual, for that matter - to break them and then get rewarded for it. |
They're not getting "rewarded" by working crappy jobs, for little pay, and more hours then most Americans work and to be exploited by those that are taking advantage of their situation. Spare me. As if it's a priviledge to be treated like crap. Give me a break.
| Puck wrote: | | It is not our fault that they are being deported. It's not as if they did not know that that was a consequence if they were caught breaking the law. Our country has a right to enforce just laws, and in this case, the main concern (imo) is safety. They are not here legally, and we cannot just assume that even though most of them tend to be generally good people, that they are indeed so. On the contrary, many people feel that if they broke the law to get here, what does that show about how much respect they have for the US and her laws. |
It depends on what you're looking for. On the flip side, what does it show that they went through hell to get into this country? Perhaps a severe dedication? Now, I'll admit that we can't really make that differentiation and have to assume, for safety as you said, that they have a severe disrespect for the law.
I also agree that entering this nation illegally must change, but this rounding them up crap is not the answer.
| Puck wrote: | Now, I would like it to be said that I would very much hope that in the future, it will be easier for more Hispanic immigrants to legally enter the US. Immigration is what makes America, and I have no objection to Hispanics coming to the United States, whether it be because they like the US, or simply want a job. I hope that we will make the immigration process easier for them. The statue of liberty says it, and I think the US should try to uphold the dignity of the human person by welcoming all:
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" |
That's the problem though. It isn't enough to just be like "Yeah, I hope it changes one day. Anywho, go back to your country."
No one is making any real effort to change the immigration laws. The United States had such a "great" intervention policy in the past. If they don't want to let these people enter, and they don't by the strict immigration laws, then they should try and reverse the crap that they had done in the past.
I'm glad you gave an honest answer though and very forthwright. It seems you understand the situation, but understanding isn't enough. Not when your future hangs in the balance.
| Republican_Man wrote: | | There's a word those supportive of illegal immigration seem to not understand, and it's an important word: illegal. Illegal. Can I get a definition, please? |
I'm well aware of what the word means. I'm not supportive of ILLEGAL immigration. Where you see an "illegal", I see a Human being. This is exactly my point, all these anti-illegal immigrant people just don't get it. You wanna talk about not understanding. You're dismissing these people because it's easier to do that then dig deeper and find the symptoms of all of this.
Honestly, those who want a real view on this shouldn't have the simplistic views of let them stay and don't fix the problem or deport them and don't fix the problem.
| Republican_Man wrote: | | I wholeheartedly agree, but increasing the amount of legals let in from Mexico (as we certainly should) is far from the only thing that needs to be done. |
So...what? Mass deportation is the answer? Good luck with that.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Tue May 01, 2007 7:08 pm |
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I agree wholeheartedly with Founder.
People talking about change in immigration laws (stricter or looser) seem to forget about all of the humans involved.
If we continue to sit here and say "oh, they're illegal, they have to go", and then spend all of our energy on deportation, we're never going to get anywhere. As much as we'd like to think otherwise, the US doesn't have unlimited resources or much of an attention span.
It would be signifigantly easier on all parties involved if we turn this page as soon and cleanly as possible - and giving anyone who has been in this country long enough, legally or not, and then revising the rules on getting in is probably the best way of going about this.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Tue May 01, 2007 11:56 pm |
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We have plenty of "legals" here who need help. Discrimination is a HUGE problem for everyone. I find it an ignorant statement to say you can say an illegal immigrants version of poverty is any different than anyone elses, the hispanics don't hold the monopoly on discrimination, persecution, etc... IMO, no race, ethnicity does. I could talk about the treatment of my Irish great-grandparents, which if you know anything of history, was atrocious. (here, and in Ireland). Or the boatloads of Jews that escaped Hitler, only to be sent right back, the US wouldn't even let them disembark.
Maybe for some, the word "illegals" de-humanizes the people and their plight, but making such a broad statement is stereotyping. Being poor in America isn't such a wonderful thing. Compare it to what you will, but take a look around, and you will see some incredibly bad living conditions for Americans. I'm sure you can again make the broad statement that it's worse being poor here, and here, but that doesn't make the statement valid.
I'm all for helping anyone who needs it. If you get here illegally, you shouldn't automatically be deported, no. That's something that definitely warrants a case by case determination, but you also shouldn't be allowed to stay just because life here is easier for you.
I'm sure I'll be told my opinion is all wrong, but I guess that's one of the dangers of posting in WN, 
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed May 02, 2007 8:34 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | We have plenty of "legals" here who need help. Discrimination is a HUGE problem for everyone. I find it an ignorant statement to say you can say an illegal immigrants version of poverty is any different than anyone elses, the hispanics don't hold the monopoly on discrimination, persecution, etc... IMO, no race, ethnicity does. I could talk about the treatment of my Irish great-grandparents, which if you know anything of history, was atrocious. (here, and in Ireland). Or the boatloads of Jews that escaped Hitler, only to be sent right back, the US wouldn't even let them disembark.
I had a feeling that people would take what I said wrong. I didn't mean that poverty in America is fun for all compared to other nations. But those in America in poverty have a hell of a lot more oppurtunities then those in poverty in many other nations, especially in Latin America. Also in Asia, Africa, parts of the Middle East, and eastern Europe. Many foreigners from those nations would fight to be poor in America. At least they have a chance, albeit a small one, to get out of poverty.
I didn't say Hispanics were the only race that was discriminated against. I'm not sure why that was even mentioned. RM made the comment that coming here and working for nothing and being exploited was a reward and they don't even deserve that much. I was telling him that discrimination is not a reward. Nowhere did I say that Hispanics are the only race to be discriminated against.
Maybe for some, the word "illegals" de-humanizes the people and their plight, but making such a broad statement is stereotyping. Being poor in America isn't such a wonderful thing. Compare it to what you will, but take a look around, and you will see some incredibly bad living conditions for Americans. I'm sure you can again make the broad statement that it's worse being poor here, and here, but that doesn't make the statement valid.
I never said anything about poverty in America being wonderful or happy or anything else. Poverty is poverty, no matter where you go. Although, I could argue that those in foreign nations would love the version of poverty in America. The difference in poverty in America and other third world nations is that America has a million more oppurtunities to get out of poverty, if not for yourself, then for your children. In most of Latin America, that concept does not even exist. There are no reforms, in most of the countries at least, that helps the poor. Despite the claims by the leftists that they are for the poor and all this other garbage. In some of these countries, if you're born poor, you die poor. In addition to that, your children inherit your "legacy". That's what most, I'll admit not all, are trying to escape. They're trying to break this cycle of povery that plagued their families for generations.
In some other countries though, they're trying to escape religious persecution, political persecution, etc. I'm sure it's different everywhere and maybe similiar in some locations.
I'm all for helping anyone who needs it. If you get here illegally, you shouldn't automatically be deported, no. That's something that definitely warrants a case by case determination, but you also shouldn't be allowed to stay just because life here is easier for you.
I'm sure I'll be told my opinion is all wrong, but I guess that's one of the dangers of posting in WN, |
I was thinking the same thing about a case by case type of decision. While that may take forever, that seems like the only fair way to do it. While the decision is being weighed, the U.S. can work on ways to fix the immigration process. However, that does not mean I want really loose immigration laws, as I'm sure there are those out there that I think I do. A part of the reason our immigration laws became so strict was because of 9/11, at least, I think it is. We should still have very strict backround checks for people, but not backround checks that take like 8 years to complete.
I wish we had someone at this site that knew the immigration laws of the U.S. in a detailed manner. We'd probably be able to find the source of the problem if we did. If there is a problem with the immigrations laws. If there isn't, then there is obviously another problem.
BTW, I don't give a free pass to all illegals. Just like I know it isn't as simple as they're criminals and hate America's laws, I also know it isn't as simple as they all love America and want work. Some really are criminals(gang members or drug sellers). Some don't even bother with immigration laws because they were taught it's simply easier to get here illegally. It's very convoluted on both sides.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Wed May 02, 2007 9:54 am |
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Here is a plain and simple point:
You come to the US((or canada)) looking for a better life, and a better judicial system.
RESPECT THIS JUDICIAL SYSTEM, AND COME TO THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.
Otherwise, I have no respect for illegal immigrants. My mom and her family immigrated here from holland just after world war II, and they did it legally. They sat in an immigration office for 12 days, waiting for the papers to go through, but THEY GOT THIER PAPERS.
You can debate about wether or not these people deserve a better life, but if they want to live in a country with better laws, they should respect those laws.
ANYTHING ELSE IS BLASPHEMOUS TO THE "BETTER LIFE" AND COUNTRY THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE.
End of story.
((It is black and white.))
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed May 02, 2007 11:10 am |
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| squiggy wrote: | Here is a plain and simple point:
You come to the US((or canada)) looking for a better life, and a better judicial system.
RESPECT THIS JUDICIAL SYSTEM, AND COME TO THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.
Otherwise, I have no respect for illegal immigrants. My mom and her family immigrated here from holland just after world war II, and they did it legally. They sat in an immigration office for 12 days, waiting for the papers to go through, but THEY GOT THIER PAPERS.
You can debate about wether or not these people deserve a better life, but if they want to live in a country with better laws, they should respect those laws.
ANYTHING ELSE IS BLASPHEMOUS TO THE "BETTER LIFE" AND COUNTRY THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE.
End of story.
((It is black and white.)) |
It's posts like this one that makes me glad I'm not on the side of the anti-illegal immigrant people. 
I'm trying to look up information about the immigration laws, but the specific info. is kind of hard to find.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Wed May 02, 2007 11:19 am |
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This has decent summary at the bottom, but I haven't gotten through reading all of the schtuf at the top.
Cornell Law also has the entire US Code section 8, which is where most of the immigration laws are. Once I sift through them a little more I'll post something with more of an opininion in it 
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Wed May 02, 2007 11:32 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | squiggy wrote: | Here is a plain and simple point:
You come to the US((or canada)) looking for a better life, and a better judicial system.
RESPECT THIS JUDICIAL SYSTEM, AND COME TO THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.
Otherwise, I have no respect for illegal immigrants. My mom and her family immigrated here from holland just after world war II, and they did it legally. They sat in an immigration office for 12 days, waiting for the papers to go through, but THEY GOT THIER PAPERS.
You can debate about wether or not these people deserve a better life, but if they want to live in a country with better laws, they should respect those laws.
ANYTHING ELSE IS BLASPHEMOUS TO THE "BETTER LIFE" AND COUNTRY THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE.
End of story.
((It is black and white.)) |
It's posts like this one that makes me glad I'm not on the side of the anti-illegal immigrant people.
I'm trying to look up information about the immigration laws, but the specific info. is kind of hard to find. |
You may disagree with my opinion, founder, but it is one shared by a great many people, if not put in such blunt terms. The law also agrees with it. Not saying it is right, not saying it is wrong, merely stating it is legally correct.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed May 02, 2007 11:38 am |
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| squiggy wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | squiggy wrote: | Here is a plain and simple point:
You come to the US((or canada)) looking for a better life, and a better judicial system.
RESPECT THIS JUDICIAL SYSTEM, AND COME TO THE COUNTRY LEGALLY.
Otherwise, I have no respect for illegal immigrants. My mom and her family immigrated here from holland just after world war II, and they did it legally. They sat in an immigration office for 12 days, waiting for the papers to go through, but THEY GOT THIER PAPERS.
You can debate about wether or not these people deserve a better life, but if they want to live in a country with better laws, they should respect those laws.
ANYTHING ELSE IS BLASPHEMOUS TO THE "BETTER LIFE" AND COUNTRY THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE.
End of story.
((It is black and white.)) |
It's posts like this one that makes me glad I'm not on the side of the anti-illegal immigrant people.
I'm trying to look up information about the immigration laws, but the specific info. is kind of hard to find. |
You may disagree with my opinion, founder, but it is one shared by a great many people, if not put in such blunt terms. The law also agrees with it. Not saying it is right, not saying it is wrong, merely stating it is legally correct. |
It is shared by a great many people, but the opposing view is also shared by a great many people as well. So who's right? Didn't a great many people once think it was bad for a black person to be at the front of the bus?
As for the law "agreeing" with it, the law is not always right. The law once said that African-Americans could not vote without taking a literacy test. Something found to be wrong later on. Also on voting, women were once not allowed to vote. I don't think I even have the time to list all the times certain laws were found to be wrong. The law isn't always right and no, that doesn't mean we can break the laws, but sometimes we have to closely scrutinized them and if the need be, change them.
Thanks for the links, TM.
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squiggy
Stooge Two
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 3007
Location: Messing with the fabric of Video Game realities. I'll summon Shiva on you! I SWEAR!
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| Wed May 02, 2007 1:59 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | squiggy wrote: |
You may disagree with my opinion, founder, but it is one shared by a great many people, if not put in such blunt terms. The law also agrees with it. Not saying it is right, not saying it is wrong, merely stating it is legally correct. |
It is shared by a great many people, but the opposing view is also shared by a great many people as well. So who's right? Didn't a great many people once think it was bad for a black person to be at the front of the bus?
As for the law "agreeing" with it, the law is not always right. The law once said that African-Americans could not vote without taking a literacy test. Something found to be wrong later on. Also on voting, women were once not allowed to vote. I don't think I even have the time to list all the times certain laws were found to be wrong. The law isn't always right and no, that doesn't mean we can break the laws, but sometimes we have to closely scrutinized them and if the need be, change them.
Thanks for the links, TM. |
I never said that it was "right", and I never said that it was "wrong". I just said it was legally correct. I know there are SOME wrong laws, this one I happen to think is correct, and I don't see how women voting or african-americans not voting without a literacy test relates((directly or not)) to the subject at hand.
And in addition, I believe there are correct and incorrect ways of pointing out the correctness of laws.
However, the laws in the U.S. and Canada are designed to make sure people can live properly and prosperously within, and be an asset to the community. I personally think that anyone who can not abide by these PROTECTIVE laws((which I also believe to be fair)) aren't ready to live properly/prosperously within the community, or are not capable of being an asset to the community. Why? Because they are clearly NOT law abiding citizens.
...but again, that is my opinion.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed May 02, 2007 3:15 pm |
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| squiggy wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | squiggy wrote: |
You may disagree with my opinion, founder, but it is one shared by a great many people, if not put in such blunt terms. The law also agrees with it. Not saying it is right, not saying it is wrong, merely stating it is legally correct. |
It is shared by a great many people, but the opposing view is also shared by a great many people as well. So who's right? Didn't a great many people once think it was bad for a black person to be at the front of the bus?
As for the law "agreeing" with it, the law is not always right. The law once said that African-Americans could not vote without taking a literacy test. Something found to be wrong later on. Also on voting, women were once not allowed to vote. I don't think I even have the time to list all the times certain laws were found to be wrong. The law isn't always right and no, that doesn't mean we can break the laws, but sometimes we have to closely scrutinized them and if the need be, change them.
Thanks for the links, TM. |
I never said that it was "right", and I never said that it was "wrong". I just said it was legally correct. I know there are SOME wrong laws, this one I happen to think is correct, and I don't see how women voting or african-americans not voting without a literacy test relates((directly or not)) to the subject at hand.
No, you never said it was right or wrong, but you seemed to imply that since the law agrees with it, then that is an important point and I'm saying that isn't correct.
You don't see how it has to do with it? Ok, I'll show you step by step...
1) You said that the law agrees that they're breaking the laws and thus, they shouldn't be doing it(your opinion).
2) I replied by saying that we shouldn't really blindly follow the law and assume it's right.
3) Then, I cited examples of how the law can be wrong.
4) The point seemed to be missed right around here.
And in addition, I believe there are correct and incorrect ways of pointing out the correctness of laws.
Yes, but no one did anything before this "immigration crisis". Maybe there were better ways of doing it, but before it became full blown, most didn't really care enough to change it. Now, it's on the minds of many and will one day, probably, reach Congress and a real change will be made, rather then half-a** ones.
However, the laws in the U.S. and Canada are designed to make sure people can live properly and prosperously within, and be an asset to the community. I personally think that anyone who can not abide by these PROTECTIVE laws((which I also believe to be fair)) aren't ready to live properly/prosperously within the community, or are not capable of being an asset to the community. Why? Because they are clearly NOT law abiding citizens.
...but again, that is my opinion. |
Yes, that is your opinion, but this WN and in WN, we counter opinions, even though an opinion can't be right or wrong.
However, sometimes you have to violate the law so that a change will be made. I seriously doubt that before all of this, anyone really gave a damn about this issue. Now, most people do, as shown that almost everyone here has an opinion on it.
No, I'm not saying that all of these people are civil rights activists and they're only doing this to get a law changed. No, they are breaking a law by coming here illegally, that is a fact. I don't buy some of their arguments that this land really belongs to them or that the "border crossed (them)" stuff.
My initial point is that all of this is complicated and saying that it is a black and white problem is not going to change anything. Go ahead and deport them. They'll be back by lunch. Go ahead and build giant walls with my tax money. They'll be over it in a second. These half-ass solutions do nothing and there is a global politics at play here. No one takes any consideration into the bigger picture and simply says "Deport their as*es". Well, ok, go ahead with that plan. You'll have the problem plague this nation forever.
It reminds me of how my own Catholic Church preaches to help fix the aid problems and abortions, we should abstain from sexual activities until marriage. Sorry, that isn't realistic. People aren't going to stop having pre-marital sex. It's a fact. Just like when people give the unrealistic answer of "deport them and we'll hope their second go is a legal one!" Sorry, that's not realistic. They'll keep breaking the laws until you all take notice and are FORCED to change things.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Wed May 02, 2007 3:35 pm |
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I think you bring up another really good point Founder - what's plausable, versus what's "right".
I think that while everyone wishes that immigrants would come here legally, some can't, whether it's for literacy, language barriers, finances, or just not knowing.
This is far from a black and white problem, these are human beings. The only thing that's predictable is that they're going to do everything they can to come here. They'll get around just about every block we put in their way. Desperation, hope, and fear are much bigger motivators than a fence or deportation.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed May 02, 2007 4:14 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | ...this WN and in WN, we counter opinions, even though an opinion can't be right or wrong.
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Except for my opinion, right?
Only kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidding of course  .....I'm sure there is a small chance I might not be completely correct every once and while.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Wed May 02, 2007 5:06 pm |
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Kevin...I'll kick you in the shins.
This is a sensitive subject, while I agree it shouldn't be done illegally, its also not as black and white as several posts make it out to be, or as easy as people make it out to be. The answer "Deport them on the buss and take their kids to!" is definitly not the answer, I mean we don't really want to look like the monsters others want to say we are, right?
-------signature-------
When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
And I held your hand through all of these years
But you still have
All of me
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