| Author |
Message |
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
 Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:07 pm 50-48: Senate Backs Troop Withdrawal From Iraq |
|
| Quote: | Senate Democrats defied President Bush's threat of a veto Tuesday and narrowly won a vote to keep in place a timetable that calls for the beginning of U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq within 120 days of passage of the measure.
An attempt to scuttle the timetable was offered as an amendment to the emergency spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan.
The 50-48 vote to defeat the amendment was a reversal of a vote earlier this month that rejected a similar timetable. Democrats this time were able to swing the votes of Republican Sen. Chuck Hagel and Democratic Sen. Ben Nelson, both of Nebraska, who previously voted against timetables. Like the last vote, Democratic Sen. Mark Pryor of Arkansas opposed the timetable. Republican Sen. Gordon Smith of Oregon supported it. |
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:12 pm |
|
This is absolutely, positively, utterly horrible. The Democrats playing politics with national security again. Even more appallingly, with funding our troops. Good thing Bush'll veto this, as unfortunate as it is.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
|
| Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:36 pm |
|
While this news makes me happy, that happiness won't last. As RM already stated, Bush'll veto it and that'll be that. Sadly, there will be no way that Congress will be able to get that 2/3 vote. 
-------signature-------
You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:38 pm |
|
I have mixed feelings. I don't really know what we should do about Iraq. That being said, I am very uncomfortable with Congress trying to control the military.
|
|
|
TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
|
| Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:19 pm |
|
| Puck wrote: | | I have mixed feelings. I don't really know what we should do about Iraq. That being said, I am very uncomfortable with Congress trying to control the military. |
It's part of Congress's job to check the Executive branch. That includes the military. And Bush hasn't shown that he's listening to the American people (from what I've seen - and I'll admit I haven't been keeping up with the news as well as I should), so it is Congress's duty to step in and remind him.
Even if it is vetoed (which is will be), and it doesn't get passed again (Probably, not 100% certain - depends a bit on the reaction to the veto), it's a big step towards getting us out of that mess and showing Bush that he needs to figure something out. Fast.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:29 pm |
|
Funny how everyone, particularly the liberals in Washington, are ignoring the tremendous successes we've had in Iraq since the new Bush plan went into effect. Furthermore, it's funny how his opponents ignore the fact that there's been a significant change in strategy.
The Dems don't want progress. What they want is retreat. Bush has given them progress, Bush has given them a change in course and a change in strategy. Yet, to them this isn't acceptable - a timetable and a precipitous withdrawal are the only option (which is NOT what the American people want; they want a successful conclusion to this war). Finding it politically expedient, they choose to ignore these facts and press forward with the ridiculous assertions that we're losing, that no changes have been made, that no progress has been made, and that Iraq is nothing but hell and a failure waiting to come out of the fold entirely. To be honest, it sickens me how low this debate has gone and how ridiculous it is. Honest to God.
I, for one, give our troops a little bit more credit than they will. I'll admit that I've been frustrated with him for a while, but I've given him one definite chance to fix this, and guess what? So far, it's worked!
Last edited by Republican_Man on Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Defiant
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 04 Jul 2001
Posts: 15946
Location: Oregon City, OR
|
| Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:29 pm |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | | This is absolutely, positively, utterly horrible. The Democrats playing politics with national security again. Even more appallingly, with funding our troops. Good thing Bush'll veto this, as unfortunate as it is. |
His vetoes will not last forever. I'd say...give it about 18 months.
|
|
|
PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:26 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | | they want a successful conclusion to this war |
There will never be a successful conclusion to the Iraq war. Allies have lost it, right from the beginning because the casualties are far greater than ever expected and has not paid off in this instance.
SH is dead and the country is somewhat stable now, yet the casualties continue. IMHO the original reason for the war being WMD, has been an insufficient cause for what's been turned up. Yet the other side of the coin, we have North Korea with all these nuclear 'tests' and such in recent months and the only thing done about that is talks.
You may be thinking that American's don't want to pull out of Iraq (don't know where you're getting this info from), but the world is much bigger than America, and everyone I know firmly believes against the Iraq war.
|
|
|
TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:46 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | Funny how everyone, particularly the liberals in Washington, are ignoring the tremendous successes we've had in Iraq since the new Bush plan went into effect. Furthermore, it's funny how his opponents ignore the fact that there's been a significant change in strategy.
The Dems don't want progress. What they want is retreat. Bush has given them progress, Bush has given them a change in course and a change in strategy. Yet, to them this isn't acceptable - a timetable and a precipitous withdrawal are the only option (which is NOT what the American people want; they want a successful conclusion to this war). Finding it politically expedient, they choose to ignore these facts and press forward with the ridiculous assertions that we're losing, that no changes have been made, that no progress has been made, and that Iraq is nothing but hell and a failure waiting to come out of the fold entirely. To be honest, it sickens me how low this debate has gone and how ridiculous it is. Honest to God.
I, for one, give our troops a little bit more credit than they will. I'll admit that I've been frustrated with him for a while, but I've given him one definite chance to fix this, and guess what? So far, it's worked! |
Funny how Bush's supporters, particularly outside the D.C. area, are ignoring the massive failures of Iraq - namely the fact that no one will win the war.
The Republicans don't want to admit they were wrong. What they want is to dig this thing into a "he-said/she-said" finger pointing battle that will never end as more and more troops die.
Done with the satirizing of your post now...
I agree with PS, the war will never be won. The "goals" of this war have changed to the point where I barely know what's happening. Yes, we got SH, but as far as I can see that's been the only positive outcome of this war. They found no WMD (or at least, not enough to constitute a war), they haven't found Bin Laden, over 3,000 American troops have been killed, God knows how many Iraqis have been killed, and we have no idea when it'll stop.
The majority of America (from what I've seen/read/heard) want to know when we'll be out. They don't all want to just run right this very second, but they want to know when they'll get their husbands, wives, sons, and daughters back. That is not an unreasonable request for our President, but all he'll respond with is "when Iraq can stand up". That seems a little too vauge for a timetable as to when we'll be finished.
|
|
|
Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:13 pm |
|
Our own troops don't know why we're there. They're there to protect their buddies from the fruits of an inadequate adminitration that's put them in an unwinable, totally unnecessary position. I give the troops lots of credit--it's not their fault that we're in a mess. Iraq needs their own fight for independence and their own civil war. We wouldn't be who we are if France had come over here, helped us get rid of the British, then decided to reform our government. We wouldn't have taken well to that. Iraq might not have a setup we like. It might not be the government we would make for them. But it would be theirs. And we wouldn't be needlessly losing good men and women. We're in a bad situation that is so screwed up that yes, it's a bad idea to pull out, and yes, it's a bad idea to stay. Right now I'd be fine with pulling out and letting things happen as they happen, because I don't think it would get that much worse in the longterm.
I'm glad the dems did this, and I wish there was enough power for a veto. I urge anyone who can to write their senator and encourage them to change their minds if they didn't vote for this bill. What, 9% of the american people think this war is 'winnable'? Okay, so, the majority can be wrong, but I don't think a staggering majority can be that wrong. The only fear there is, it's going to get really bad just before we leave. Everyone should be aware of that. Even when a new division swaps into a place in Iraq things automatically get bloodier--they've got a handle on timing.
Bush said that the date the senate chose was arbitrary. So, how about we compromise! Why doesn't Mr. Bush come up with a less arbitrary plan to get our troops out soon.
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:59 pm |
|
I have mixed feelings on the war, however, I will agree that trying to get the budget to send more of them over there is retarded. He should definitly work on withdrawl. Particuaraly as SH is gone, and now dead.
-------signature-------
When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
And I held your hand through all of these years
But you still have
All of me
|
|
|
WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:04 pm |
|
The war is over. We lost, we have to get out before we feed all of our troops into the meat grinder.
|
|
|
Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:11 pm |
|
| Quote: | | Iraq needs their own fight for independence and their own civil war. We wouldn't be who we are if France had come over here, helped us get rid of the British, then decided to reform our government. We wouldn't have taken well to that. Iraq might not have a setup we like. It might not be the government we would make for them. But it would be theirs. |
At this point, it's too late for that. Before France came, we had our own ideas already in place, our own government established. Or at least a premise. Iraq doesn't even hardly know what to do with the idea of freedom. They are still of the mindset, "if you don't agree with me, you have to die". Does it need to be them that's putting their own lives on the line more? Definitely. We're so mired there it's ridiculous, but to just walk now, everything up to this point would pretty much be in vain. Especially if a new dictator stepped into power. (unlikely, I know, but not an impossibility)
| WeAz wrote: | | The war is over. We lost, we have to get out before we feed all of our troops into the meat grinder. |
A dictator was deposed, a country is having national elections. Women are allowed educations and a say in their own lives..., sounds like a real defeat to me.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
|
|
|
Omok
Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:36 pm |
|
| WeAz wrote: | | The war is over. We lost, we have to get out before we feed all of our troops into the meat grinder. |
I disagree with this.
I have friends in Iraq, one of whom is actually just now preparing to go back for a second tour.
To say that 'the war is over' seems more like either wishful thinking or a simple assertion of opinion.
|
|
|
Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:45 pm |
|
I didn't want to come back here, but I really, really need to vent.
It just pisses me off that despite the amazingly high drop in violence (around a 50 percent drop in execution style killings) in Baghdad all I hear is the same old "We can't win! It's impossible! We're killing our troops!". It's insane how a huge drop in violence just in the security crackdown's early stages doesn't affect their mindset at all. Yeah, there's every chance that it can start up again, but things are looking much more positive than before. Some might say that they just can't trust Bush knows what he's doing because of how the situation has only gotten worse and worse in the past few years. Well, the situation has only gotten better and better in the past few weeks, but they don't give a damn. Nope, hundreds upon hundreds of terrorists being captured and killed doesn't mean anything to them. A huge drop in execution style killings doesn't mean anything to them. Vast amounts of tips from Iraqi civilians doesn't mean anything to them. The only thing that does mean anything to them is bashing Bush. End of *beep* story.  FUND OUR TROOPS DAMMIT!!!
|
|
|
WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
|
| Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:55 pm |
|
The problem with Iraq is that only a small group is willing to work together. The rest are concentrating on sectarian differences.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:00 am |
|
Look, I think we can all agree that the issue of Iraq is very complicated, no?
Things aren't going great, but not everything is lost either.
I'm not sure what the solution is, because to be honest, there is no "good" solution to this. The only good one is if the Iraqi's, the one's against us, got their stuff together and ended this violence.
|
|
|
PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
|
| Thu Mar 29, 2007 3:39 am |
|
| Theresa wrote: | | A dictator was deposed, a country is having national elections. Women are allowed educations and a say in their own lives..., sounds like a real defeat to me. |
Oh, now common it's safe to say the primary reason of this war was for search and destroy of WMD. The amount of WMD presumed must have been huge enough to require such a war. In no means was the primary reasons for a war to eliminate SH, allow women education, elections etc.
Or I could be wrong. Does that mean when America finishes with Iraq their just going to make their way through the poorer euro countries, down to africa etc? Just to give women equal rights and introduce elections.
It is defeat because the cost of 3000 lives was not worth the outcome. Ignoring the casualty count, yeah the war was overall positive. But the price of the war was too great IMHO.
The answer maybe not pull all troops out tomorrow, but a plan needs to be drawn up. Something needs to be set in concrete. If nothing is done then thats not good and other allied contries will become increasingly fustrated, which is also not good and may assist to pull those troops OUT.
|
|
|
Omok
Lieutenant
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Posts: 170
|
| Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:45 am |
|
An idea that doesn't seem to be resonating with anyone, let alone Americans, is the intense cultural differences between Iraqis and them.
One of my favorite quotes is;
| HM King Abdullah of Jordan wrote: | | Yes, and you know different countries will set different paces and democracy will mean different things to different nations. It has to be something that's homegrown. It can't be something that's imported, but opening up is the first step towards democracy. And when we move to a more stable Middle East, it'll be easier for societies to be able to do that. |
We can not dictate the terms of a realization of democracy, especially not to a country/culture that is as ancient as the one found in the Middle East. We are better to serve them by aiding in securing their borders, assisting with infrastructure and providing helpful information.
Which is currently the misson that the US military is charged with. Yes, there are other things happening, but it can not be solved by shoving any idea down anyones throat.
One reference that should be in everyones mind in this situation is Europe and South East Asia, post WWII.
Yes, the situations are comparable to a point.
|
|
|
Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
|
| Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:28 pm |
|
| PrankishSmart wrote: | | It is defeat because the cost of 3000 lives was not worth the outcome. Ignoring the casualty count, yeah the war was overall positive. But the price of the war was too great IMHO. |
I can't speak for them, but I have a strong feeling that if you could ask the ones who died if it was worth it most if not all of them would reply positively. "Oo-rah", if it were a Marine.
I base this solely on the sheer number of times I've heard from soldiers that say it's a just cause and worth fighting for.
Not speaking specifically to you, but I become pretty upset when I hear the number of dead US troops being tossed around like that.
|
|
|
Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
|
| Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:58 pm |
|
I don't know any soldiers who would rejoice for dying in this war. Because the soldiers I know don't trust the administration or the war. They fight to protect their buddies and make it home alive. But maybe I only know the crazy ones.
Last edited by Arellia on Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:02 am |
|
Yeah, I can't say I know of any that would rejoice either...perhaps doing something for their country...but other then that? No...
While getting SH out of power was needed, I do agree time to leave has come. I also agree that, now we have gone in, an all out, sudden withdrawl would be foolish. Phased? sure, go for it.
-------signature-------
When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
And I held your hand through all of these years
But you still have
All of me
|
|
|
Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
|
| Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:28 pm |
|
Read it again, slowly. Did I use the word "rejoice"?
|
|
|
PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
|
| Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:21 pm |
|
The idea that troops would feel proud dying for the war is the most ridiculous I have ever heard. They are not dying for their country, they are dying for the Iraq war by fault of their own government that doesn't know what their doing.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Fri Mar 30, 2007 11:25 pm |
|
I'll be posting a far more detailed counterargument to everything said here tomorrow, but I had to reply to this:
| PrankishSmart wrote: | | The idea that troops would feel proud dying for the war is the most ridiculous I have ever heard. They are not dying for their country, they are dying for the Iraq war by fault of their own government that doesn't know what their doing. |
If that's the case, then why I have I heard testimony from numerous soldier-parents that their deceased kids would have been proud dying for the cause, and that if they were to die yet haven't they would be? Clear contradiction to your argument, which is entirely baseless as well, and far to generalized.
Furthermore, the idea that the government "doesn't know what their doing" is purely up to interpretation. I agree with that when it comes to the Congress, but not the president because his and General Petreaus's strategy have worked fantastically since they went into effect, including the surge.
More to come tomorrow.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Star Trek �, in all its various forms, are trademarks & copyrights of Paramount Pictures
This site has no official connection with Star Trek or Paramount Pictures
Site content/Site design elements owned by Morphy and is meant to only be an archive/Tribute to STV.com
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
