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antimatterenergy
Crewman
Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 4
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 Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:53 am Ranting on the treatment of seven of nine by voyager crew |
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I was recently watching Star Trek Voyager and from my point of view the crew of Voyager were not very tolerant and did not treat Seven of Nine very well.
1. Why did they not offer seven of nine quarters, or at least make the cargo bay off limits to regular crew members? It seems to me that they should have given seven of nine her own quarter or made the cargo-bay into her quarters. My reason for think they should have done this is because she deserves privacy just as everyone else does.
2. I do not ever remember seven of nine joining star fleet, so why was she forced to act like a star fleet officer and treated like a star fleet officer instead of a civilian scientist.
3. Why did they have the doctor try and teach her how to socialize with the crew? I found this stupid because the doctor was not a human or even a biological entity. He may have been programmed well and achieved sentience but he still would not have the types of experiences a humanoid would have. Also the doctor did not have very good socialization skills since a lot of the crew thought he had a bad bed side manner. They should have assigned her with someone or had her live with a crew mate with the doctor assisting occasionally.
4. Seven of Nine had gone through a great trauma (being disconnected from the collective the only family/life she had known) and they did not treat her like someone who just suffered a great shock.
5. Since Seven of Nine grew up the way she did, she had the socialization skills and emotional growth of a child. They should have treated her like a young teenager and tried to make friends with her in several different ways until they found away that worked.
6. Another thing I found I did not like is that they expected Seven to act like a human. They should have treated her like she was an alien and not like a human because even though her DNA was human she was raised by aliens and would take many qualities from them. They should have treated her the way the would have treated a human/Vulcan hybrid or human/alien hybrid instead of trying to make her human again.
7. Why did they have Seven take care of the Borg drone children? This really baffled me. Seven has had little interaction with children and the Borg did not treat children the way other races do. They should have assigned someone who has had children at sometime and had seven assist.
8. Last thing I want to say at this moment, Chakotay/Seven match up was very stupid and I hated it.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:35 am Re: Ranting on the treatment of seven of nine by voyager cre |
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| antimatterenergy wrote: | I was recently watching Star Trek Voyager and from my point of view the crew of Voyager were not very tolerant and did not treat Seven of Nine very well.
What are you talking about? Janeway screwed up time just for Seven. If that isn't love, then I don't know what is.
1. Why did they not offer seven of nine quarters, or at least make the cargo bay off limits to regular crew members? It seems to me that they should have given seven of nine her own quarter or made the cargo-bay into her quarters. My reason for think they should have done this is because she deserves privacy just as everyone else does.
Did...you not notice she sleeps in a regeneration chamber and not on a bed? You're making it sound like she slept on the floor of the cargo bay. The giant thing she slept in would not fit in quarters and as Seven would say, "It would not be an effecient use of crew quarters, because I lack the need for comfort." She wouldn't want the bed or couch or whatever. It's not in her nature. And did I mention that giant regeneration chamber would NOT fit inside of the puny quarters that an Intrepid class boasts?
2. I do not ever remember seven of nine joining star fleet, so why was she forced to act like a star fleet officer and treated like a star fleet officer instead of a civilian scientist.
She wasn't "forced" to do anything. Seven gave the knowledge because she wanted to help the VOY crew get home. They only liberated her from a life of mental and physical slavery. 
3. Why did they have the doctor try and teach her how to socialize with the crew? I found this stupid because the doctor was not a human or even a biological entity. He may have been programmed well and achieved sentience but he still would not have the types of experiences a humanoid would have. Also the doctor did not have very good socialization skills since a lot of the crew thought he had a bad bed side manner. They should have assigned her with someone or had her live with a crew mate with the doctor assisting occasionally.
 I'm gonna admit that you have a good point with this one. However, I think it's not that they "chose" the Doctor to do it, but rather he took it upon himself to help her. Both of them were essentially the outsiders. Humans, but not really Humans at all. Kes taught him how to be more Human(ironically, she's alien) and then he in turn taught Seven.
4. Seven of Nine had gone through a great trauma (being disconnected from the collective the only family/life she had known) and they did not treat her like someone who just suffered a great shock.
Care to cite examples of the mistreatment?
Not to mention, the crew didn't know how to react to people that used to be a Borg drone. It was daunting to all of them. All they knew was that getting her out of there was the right thing to do.
5. Since Seven of Nine grew up the way she did, she had the socialization skills and emotional growth of a child. They should have treated her like a young teenager and tried to make friends with her in several different ways until they found away that worked.
Maybe, however, they did try different ways to get through to her.
6. Another thing I found I did not like is that they expected Seven to act like a human. They should have treated her like she was an alien and not like a human because even though her DNA was human she was raised by aliens and would take many qualities from them. They should have treated her the way the would have treated a human/Vulcan hybrid or human/alien hybrid instead of trying to make her human again.
No, I don't agree. Seven IS Human. She is not an alien. She may have the knowlede of dozens of aliens, that does not make her Alien. If a Human went to live on Vulcan and spent his life there. Dressing like them, eating like them, living by logic, etc. does that make him Vulcan? No. He's still Human. Seven of Nine IS Human.
7. Why did they have Seven take care of the Borg drone children? This really baffled me. Seven has had little interaction with children and the Borg did not treat children the way other races do. They should have assigned someone who has had children at sometime and had seven assist.
Again, I don't think they chose Seven of Nine specifically. I think it was a matter of her knowing the BORG best, not children. The Borg children seemed more comfertable with Seven anyways.
8. Last thing I want to say at this moment, Chakotay/Seven match up was very stupid and I hated it. |
As opposed to what, Chakotay-Janeway or Janeway-Seven, both of which are equally stupid?
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:19 am |
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As for the forced to act like a Stafleet Officer?
Where was she forced? Not to mention, after she said she'd help, she was given a great deal of responsiblity, and access to the ship (The kind of access lower ranks can only fantasize about for later on in their career!)
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:42 am |
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They're both correct. There was no mistreatment...
She didn't want/need comfort. It would have been irrelevant to her. The regeneration alcove would not have fit in quarters...to tall. Yes, on alcove might have fit, but it's too tall. The Cargo bay was just right. And as for restricting crew members from going in there, why? It's a Storage area. People need to get things once in a while...
And it's true LB, she got clearance without having to go through background checks! LOL...Such a level of clearance that junior officers might normally have had a fit about...ya, anyway, I'm beating a dead horse......
As for the Seven/Chakotay relationship, you're right. I do agree with you there, and there are a number of fans here that would agree with you...but what does that have to do with mistreatment of the character?
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:55 am |
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I don't see how she was mistreated cause she was the Captain's favorite and she was treated better. hint hint. But, she was a good person/ex-borg. Even though I didn't like her and Chakotay together. Sue me, Seven grew on me lol Ok I like her. 
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:00 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | She didn't want/need comfort. It would have been irrelevant to her. The regeneration alcove would not have fit in quarters...to tall. Yes, on alcove might have fit, but it's too tall. The Cargo bay was just right. And as for restricting crew members from going in there, why? It's a Storage area. People need to get things once in a while...
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Since an alcove wouldn't fit into normal crew quarters, she was assigned space in the cargo bay.
*However*, in early season five, she expressed her discontent with the rudeness of people simply walking into her quarters unannounced--when she chastized the Doctor for that at the beginning of "Drone."
If they wanted her to become an individual, she should have been afforded the right to privacy that all individuals on the crew have.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:17 pm |
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^ that's a good point, but I think it's also something that she didn't understand until later on. At the beginining she had no real respect for anyone else's space, so I doubt the crew really felt the need to give her that kind of space. And I think (I could be wrong) that once she said something the crew honored her request.
And along with the alcove not fitting in the quarters, the Borg also installed all of their stuff in the cargo bay. That wasn't a real choice on the crew's part.
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antimatterenergy
Crewman
Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 4
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:14 pm |
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Founder-
I never said that she wasn't loved only that they didn't treat her all that well.
As for the cargo bay thing if they wanted her to get to know her individuality they should have converted the cargo bay into her quarters or put in a wall to make it into her quarter's while still allowing the rest of the cargo bay to be used for storage. This would have made the crew think of her as less machine and more a human. She did even complain about people enter at all hours and she had only been disconnected from the Borg for a few months at the time.
They treated her like a star fleet officer in that they ordered her to do things instead of asking her to do things. An example of this is that she was ordered to give her nanoprobes to save a member of species 8472 in the episode Prey. She did not want to. It was her right to deny the use of her nanoprobes because she was not a member of star fleet. A star fleet officer signed up to be a part of star fleet and has to obey the captain a civilian does not have to obey.
As for treating her like an alien if a human was raised on Vulcan by Vulcan's they would still be human but in all likelihood they would have Vulcan view points and actions and everyone would probably treat them more like a Vulcan than a human. In the same manner they should have taken into account how she was raised and not expect her to act like a normal human.
Voyager2004
She had just been disconnected from hearing the thoughts of billions, was in a situation she did not understand, and had been forcibly taken from the only home she has known against her will. A home she wanted to return to. She may have thought it was irrelevant and saw no need for comfort but really she did. She should have been talking to a counselor or something (holodeck should be able to provide one) that showed her that it was ok to be scared that even though she could no longer her the voices of billions she was not alone, etc...
and the seven/chakotay thing has nothing to do with mistreatment I just hate it.
Leo Wyatt
The captain may have liked her and even favored her in someways but that doesn't mean that they treated seven of nine like she should have been treated. A person can love someone and still mistreat that person. Any way's I do not believe that they did it on purpose.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:11 pm |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | And I think (I could be wrong) that once she said something the crew honored her request.
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She'd been onboard for about a year at the point she chastised the Doctor. He dismissed her annoyance as trivial, and people continued to walk in and out of her quarters freely.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:28 pm |
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| antimatterenergy wrote: | | A star fleet officer signed up to be a part of star fleet and has to obey the captain a civilian does not have to obey. |
Not true...yes, an officer signed up and went to the academy to be ordered around...but when a civilian is on a military ship they are still subjected to the orders of the Captain. It's the Captain's ship, it's the Captain's orders. She fell under that order. She had to obey.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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antimatterenergy
Crewman
Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 4
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| Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:36 pm |
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| Quote: | | when a civilian is on a military ship they are still subjected to the orders of the Captain |
Yes but she is not given a choice to leave the ship. If a civilian does not want to obey they generally have the choice of leaving. Also they essentially ordered her to give what amounts to her blood. As a civilian they should have been asking instead of ordering her around in most situations. Ex. Seven report to the bridge. Should have been Seven will you please come to the bridge. They were treating her like she was an officer instead of a civilian consultant. In cases that were not absolutely vital she should have been given a choice. I would not be surprised if from Seven's point of view she was a slave to the Borg and now she is a slave of the federation but where the Borg make it clear she has no choice in what she does the federation gives her the illusion of freedom. (not really what the federation does but from her point of view it can be seen this way.)
Really she should have had lots of counseling. Counseling given to telepaths who suddenly lost their telepathic abilities since basically she did being one with billions to being all alone. Counseling given to people who were raised by their kidnappers and now see the kidnappers as their parents. Counseling given to people raised by other species similar to the counseling given to people who are raised by wolves or apes that you sometimes hear about. Counseling for the inevitable nightmares/guilt that she will have when she realizes what she has done as a Borg. Taught basic social interaction and body language so as to get better integrated with the crew, etc...
A question that just occured to me did the doctor or mr Paris ever say they were sorry for making a bet about her? I can't remember. Also did the doctor apologize for using her body when he was transfered into her cortical node to hide from the species that was at war with holographic beings?
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:59 am |
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| antimatterenergy wrote: | | Quote: | | when a civilian is on a military ship they are still subjected to the orders of the Captain |
Yes but she is not given a choice to leave the ship. If a civilian does not want to obey they generally have the choice of leaving. Also they essentially ordered her to give what amounts to her blood. As a civilian they should have been asking instead of ordering her around in most situations. Ex. Seven report to the bridge. Should have been Seven will you please come to the bridge. They were treating her like she was an officer instead of a civilian consultant. In cases that were not absolutely vital she should have been given a choice. I would not be surprised if from Seven's point of view she was a slave to the Borg and now she is a slave of the federation but where the Borg make it clear she has no choice in what she does the federation gives her the illusion of freedom. (not really what the federation does but from her point of view it can be seen this way.)
No. Not really. For those who don't know, I've said it many times, but you may not know, I am in the Navy. Right now we're in the shipyards and so we have plenty of civilian personnel working on the boat (Submarine, NOT ship) and when we need one of those slow pokes, we get on the 35mc, the announcing circuit for the missile compartment, and we say, "Mr. So and so, report to *location*." Not all of these people have been in the military, and regardless if they were or not, they're still civilians who REPORT to where we tell them.
And there are some cases where Seven wasn't aloud to make her own decision for her own good. Like when she wanted to go back to the collective. That wasn't her talking, that was the "collective" talking. Meaning, that's all she knew, that's all she wanted...and as for counseling, there are alot of things that happen on a show that isn't seen on camera. We can only assume that she did undergo extensive counseling. But it just wasn't shown. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't want to see all of season 4 and 5 that dealt with Seven and her counseling sessions. That would be extremely stupid and boring. As if ratings weren't dropping to begin with, they would surely have plummeted after they did that.
Really she should have had lots of counseling. Counseling given to telepaths who suddenly lost their telepathic abilities since basically she did being one with billions to being all alone. Counseling given to people who were raised by their kidnappers and now see the kidnappers as their parents. Counseling given to people raised by other species similar to the counseling given to people who are raised by wolves or apes that you sometimes hear about. Counseling for the inevitable nightmares/guilt that she will have when she realizes what she has done as a Borg. Taught basic social interaction and body language so as to get better integrated with the crew, etc...
A question that just occured to me did the doctor or mr Paris ever say they were sorry for making a bet about her? I can't remember. Also did the doctor apologize for using her body when he was transfered into her cortical node to hide from the species that was at war with holographic beings? |
And it's reasonable to assume that yes, there were apologies after those incidents. But why waste precious air time just to show it? That doesn't make good TV...that's why. It's a waste of air time, show time...stuff that its reasonable to assume happened but didn't need to be shown.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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antimatterenergy
Crewman
Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 4
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| Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:17 pm |
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They did not have to show the entire counseling sessions just made comment on them or have her called from a counseling session or something.
An apology would not take a lot of air time and I for one would have liked to see them and it would have shown us that they were treating her like an individual and that they cared about her feelings. It also may have been amusing to see how she'd have reacted to an apology.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:45 pm |
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The Doctor did apologize. Seven accepted the apology.
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[email protected]
Junior Cadet
Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 18
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| Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:53 am Re: Ranting on the treatment of seven of nine by voyager cre |
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| Founder wrote: | | antimatterenergy wrote: |
7. Why did they have Seven take care of the Borg drone children? This really baffled me. Seven has had little interaction with children and the Borg did not treat children the way other races do. They should have assigned someone who has had children at sometime and had seven assist.
Again, I don't think they chose Seven of Nine specifically. I think it was a matter of her knowing the BORG best, not children. The Borg children seemed more comfertable with Seven anyways.
8. Last thing I want to say at this moment, Chakotay/Seven match up was very stupid and I hated it. |
As opposed to what, Chakotay-Janeway or Janeway-Seven, both of which are equally stupid? |
~~~~~~~~~~~
I first want to say that this entire subject is uncalled for and not thought through. If Seven was treated badly, she would never have come to say, "Voyager is my collective now"
But I want to comment on the above section that I quoted . .
As far as Seven taking care of the children, her and Janeway had a conversation about this in Janeway's ready room. They talked about Seven adapting well, her maternal instincts, and her common uniquness to the children. Although at first, she objected and told Janeway that she would be a more suitable care giver, given her success with Seven. Ultimately, Seven says, "I will comply" and became EXTREMELY fond of the children!
Ok . . .and now the Chakotay/Seven matchup . . .
I do kind of see how this is silly. However, it becomes essential in the reasoning for Janeway to come back in time to bring Voyager home early. Remember she says something like, "Seven dies and Chakotay will never be the same" Because Janeway is so close to both Chakotay and seven, this ulimately gives her the reason to come back in time.
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KateReba fan
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 251
Location: BC
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| Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:24 pm |
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Just to add onto the whole Seven looking after the children -- in one part of the episode when Seven said that Janeway would be better suited as the caregiver Kathryn told Seven that she would be good b/c she could help them adapt to being away from the collective by using her personal experiences to help them. That is usually the best way to help is by using your own personal experiences.
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�Be different, stand out, and work your butt off.� -- Reba McEntire
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Scapegoat Bob
Commodore
Joined: 02 Sep 2001
Posts: 1198
Location: The Barn
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| Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:32 pm |
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we wish we had a mom that wears tight fit stuf like 7.
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:26 pm |
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| Scapegoat Bob wrote: | | we wish we had a mom that wears tight fit stuf like 7. |
Why? I mean... she's be your MOM....gross
Now lets talk "babysitter"...
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Scapegoat Bob
Commodore
Joined: 02 Sep 2001
Posts: 1198
Location: The Barn
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| Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:29 pm |
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hey!
Stop saying our mom si gross you scoundrel! 
-------signature-------
Here, kitty kitty kitty!
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