The War on Christmas: Who won?

[Hitchhiker]

I don't know if I believe in God or not, and I still celebrate Christmas. Why? Well ostensibly my family is Christian, even if I'm not. It would be rather awkward if I told my dad that I wasn't allowed to celebrate Christmas because I'm not, technically, Christian. That doesn't seem very family-conscious.

The date upon which Christmas occurs has been a holiday for centuries prior to Christ's birth anyway. I really don't care what people call it, and I don't care who calls it what. I was taught that we exchange gifts and stalk white-bearded people in red suits for the month of December.

[Link, the Hero of Time]

Puck, the only problem with your theories and such is that you are still set firm that Christ was born that day, He was not.

Re-read Luke. among the bits: The Shepards were out tending their flock and A census was being taken. Neither of these could happen in December as the area of Bethlehem would be covered in snow. This all points to him being born anywhere from Late summer to early fall.

What December did have was Roman holidays, you'd call them pagan holidays now. Saturnalia, the holiday of the God Saturn, the god of harvest, happened from the 17th through the 23 Celebrating the Winter Solstice. After was Sol Invictus, the Birth of the Unconquered Sun, On the 25th. Even the christmas trees are a borrowed concept from these Roman holidays.

So, With the christians wanting to convert people, they assimilated the 25th later as the day their lord and savior was born.

[Republican_Man]

Yes, Christmas isn't on Christ's actual birthday, and yes, it is on this date due to a church PR campaign, but now it is on this date, and the US government has set December 25th as a federal holiday as a result.

So, basically, we can argue about whether December 25th is the legitimate day, but the fact remains that it's the date chosen. December 25th is Christmas Day, a day meant to celebrate the birth of Jesus, Lord and Savior to Christians and, to others, he may well be considered a philosopher who diseminated a vast, universal moral message to people.

[Puck]

I never said that I believed December 25th was the actual day that Jesus was born. However, this is the day that has been chosen for Christians to celebrate the birth of The Lord and Savior of the world. The fact that the Romans celebrated some holiday in December, and the Church chose December to celebrate the birth of Christ really have no impact on what I am saying at all.

[Lord Borg]

I don't have a problem with who celebrates it, Christmas to me isn't just about Jesus, it's about family, caring, giving, goodwill towards men and women, and peace on earth.

What I have a problem with? naming it a holiday tree, people getting fired for saying merry christmas, told in their workspace they can't display merry christmas etc..

[Republican_Man]

[teya]

[Theresa]

I think Kevin just addressed this. Talking about the day itself, but it still has the same meaning. Besides, I've heard a few stories about the origins of the Christmas tree, not that I care which is true. What matters is how I percieve it.

[Founder]

Figures my net goes down when this wonderful topic comes up.

First of all, the general attitude of the original poster doesn't seem to...nice IMO. Was this topic made to gloat or something? As far as I see, neither side "won". So it seems ridiculous to laugh about...nothing.

As for the phrase "war on Christmas", yes it was excessive and not needed. However, in America, we like to declare war on stuff because its what gets people'e attention. War on Drugs, war on Terror, etc. It wouldn't be very catchy if it was called Skirmish with secularists on a word that has religious connontations OR War on Christmas. Take your pick. However, I do agree that it's a complete overeggaration and should never have been used, but mainly because both sides are trying to live up to the name, "war".

First of all, for people like teya, this is not just about fundemenatlist Christians. We didn't really start this, did we? This began because people were being forced to say "Happy Holidays" in a ridiculous attempt to be fair to everyone. However, it isn't fair to everyone perse. It's not really offensive, neither side is.

Let's look at this in perspective shall we? We're both arguing for a different way to say "have a nice and safe time this year". We're essentially fighting for the right to compliment and wish each other best wishes. However, I'm not mad nor feel oppressed because we're being forced to say it. It's the principle of the matter. We shouldn't be forced to do anything. No one is forcing you to say Merry Christmas, but I'm being forced to say happy holidays. It's not a matter of happy holidays being bad, but it's the fact that this is just another excuse to push Christianity aside. It is hard to argue that. What real reason is there to force people to say it?

[teya]

[teya]

But before I visit with Scrooge, I promised RM a review.

Great speech. My only issue is the use of the buzzword "secular-progressive."

See, I am a progressive. And I agree with you on a lot of these issues. But by casting me as the enemy, I'm less likely to want to continue listening to what you have to say. You create an immediate wall for some of your listeners, by evoking a political pundit who is viewed by many as overly inflammatory and hostile.

Better to come up with your own term, one more in keeping with the message of tolerance you're trying to convey. You get that across, but it would be that much stronger (intellectually stronger, too) if you chose your own term.

[WeAz]

Here's what I say. Lets ignore the nuts who are offended by saying Merry Christmas,or Happy Holidays and just celebrate!

[La Forge]

I'm an atheist. I don't really care if you say Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas or whatever you want to say. I understand that the intention of those words is a positive thing. When people wish me a Merry Christmas they're not forcing Christianity on me. And, the fact that some people believe that Christians are forcing their religion on others with words like Christmas tree and Merry Christmas is ridiculous (while, I do sort of have a problem with Winter Break being called Christmas Break. I'm not gonna talk about that, but, I'm just mentioning it).

Also, though I am an atheist I do "celebrate" Christmas. By that, I mean, I go to the party with my family, exchange the gifts, all of that stuff. Why? Because...EVERYONE else in my family is Christian. Like HH said, what am I gonna do? Go up to my dad and say "Yeah...I don't think that I'll be going with you guys to the party. I'll sit home for three hours."

But, yeah, calling it a WAR on Christmas is way too much. And, RM? Your speech was good, however, watch how you use the word "morals". You say that you're trying to make America a place of morals, however, by that, you mean Christian morals, I'd expect. I have different morals than you, being an atheist (no, because I'm an atheist does not mean that I want to take over the world and force everyone else to be atheists and if anyone thinks that...I'm sure that there are plenty of mental institutions open). But, yeah, it was a good speech, overall. You've got some skills in that department.

[Puck]

[WeAz]

Well, he was a philosopher. We have no scientific proof that he was god, beyond his own word. So, he was a philosopher.

[Republican_Man]

[Republican_Man]

[WeAz]

What is the danger of a secular government? Explain it to me.

[teya]

[Republican_Man]

[Arellia]

^Probably best to continue that discussion in a PM.

Back to the subject, it's very sad, as many people here have stated, that Christmas has become a warzone and people are becoming offended by attempts at kindness. I see no problem with saying "happy holidays" if you worry much about offending a person... if you know a person's Jewish, say "Happy Hannukah." If you didn't know and you accidently say "Merry Christmas" ... so? A misunderstanding, which is very rarely a sign of animocity for the overlooked religion.

As to Christ, I see no problem regarding him as an important philosopher... I'd even call it a good thing to see him as such. It takes the question of blind belief and prejudice against religion away, leaving you free to discuss Jesus's philosophy on life with those who do not believe. He was not merely a philosopher, but he did seek to impart knowledge, and that is the goal of philosophy. (Although no-holds-barred philosophy rarely actually answers anything )

[TrekkieMage]

My take on the "War on Christmas" is that people don't realize how secularized Christmas has become.

My roommate is Buddhist. She still celebrates Christmas because it is a cultural holiday for her rather than a religious holiday.

I know that my family is "Christian" however, Christmas has become something that no longer represents religion, but a tradition of family and friends, generoisity, and good spirits.

I feel like this whole "war" is just the vocal extremes worming their way into the media and making a mountain out of a mole-hill. I think that if most people just ignore the whole issue of "Happy Holidays" versus "Merry Christmas" it will become a non-issue, and the phrases will be on an equal plane with eachother. If that makes any sense

[Republican_Man]

[TrekkieMage]

So 3% of the population is offended and now it's a war? The problem is that they are vocal, and they are getting a reaction. If we would stop reacting so vehemently to their "attacks" there would be less of a public uproar about it.

I find that the majority of people really don't care that strongly about it all, it's just the really vocal people.

For most people, yes, it is still religious in some ways. But it also represents more than a single religion.

Also, do you think that companies and cities would be so specific about their wording if we didn't jump on it saying that they are "for or against" Christmas? No. It's people making a mountain out of a molehill. And I think the best thing we can do is let them flail their arms and shout all they want and just ignore them.

[Republican_Man]