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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
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 Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:05 pm The War on Christmas: Who won? |
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*lol*
Last year we heard so much about the "War on Christmas"--how the world as we know it was coming to an end because some people had the unmitigated gall to wish people "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas."
This year, the guns are silent.
So what happened? I see "Happy Holidays" cards in the stores, so apparently it's okay to send that wish--at least through the mail. There's a treee and a menorah in the public park down the street. Nothing seems to have changed at all.
So who won?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:44 pm |
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No one did. The war is still raging. It's just that the traditionalists won more battles last year, so even O'Reilly's not doing much with it - though he's still gone over some of it at the same time, such as presenting lists of stores not saying Merry Christmas and featuring a few other attacks as well.
I'm waging war on the anti-Christmas warriors in my latest Speech and Debate speech. I devote more than half of my speech to listing battle scenes, then bring it into ties with a greater war I call the "War on Faith."
Last edited by Republican_Man on Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Link, the Hero of Time
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Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:07 pm |
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yep, because we all know that we should say Merry Christmas and ignore the other holidays that happen.
So until people start saying "Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, happy Kwanzaa, Sol Invictus, Lo Saturnalia, etc." I'm going to continue to say Happy Holidays to be respectful off all holidays.
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:16 pm |
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According to US News and World report, 95% of America celebrates Christmas, and 84% professes to be Christian. Just as well, only 3% of Americans, according to a 2005 Gallup poll, are offended by the words "Merry Christmas." So there's nothing wrong with saying it considering those stats.
I'll post my speech on this later on.
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Lord Borg
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:23 pm |
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It isnt about ignoring other holidays, or percentages, its the fact that people are 'offended' at merry christmas, or chrismas tree...
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
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Location: United States of America
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:42 pm |
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And you have people who are offended if you buy Chevrolet instead of Ford. You aren't going to make everyone happy.
At work, we're to reply in the manner of the customer. If they say "Happy Holidays", you do as well, same with "Merry Christmas".
It's silly to feel you can't say something like that for fear of offending someone. What if you say "Happy Holidays" to someone who celebrates nothing? Are you going to now say nothing at all? We used to have common sense and judgement. It's too bad many no longer do.
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teya
Commander
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Posts: 423
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:11 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | At work, we're to reply in the manner of the customer. If they say "Happy Holidays", you do as well, same with "Merry Christmas".
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Now, wouldn't it be lovely if everyone thought this way?
RM, I'm not offended if someone says "Merry Christmas" to me. But, at the same time, I find it absurd that someone can be offended that I send "Happy Holidays" cards or say "Happy Holidays" to them.
And I was informed by a devout Christian last year that it's offensive for me--a "nonbeliever"--to say "Merry Christmas." See, because I don't celebrate it. So I shouldn't say it.
Which, leaves this "nonbeliever" in the Scrooge position--no matter what I do, I'll offend someone. What's the solution? Refuse to be cheerful? 
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Lord Borg
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:15 pm |
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Teya, that's unfourinate. Personally, I would not be offended if you said Happy Holidays, or Merry Christmas, I'd return the greeting!
If your a non believer and celebrait christmas, you';ve got the right to say it. Frankly, you've got the right period, IMO, nothing says you "HAVE" to be a believer to be able to say it.
I find it offensive that theres actually a big enough problem over this for it to be an argument. Other then that.../shrugs
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:20 pm |
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I think we're going to the extreme with the cases mentioned previously. The average citizen, Jew, Christian, Muslim, is not going to care if you say Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. You're always going to have the nuts who go off the deep end, and you learn to recognize them for what they are.
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teya
Commander
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Posts: 423
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:30 pm |
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Yep!
I mean, when I was a kid our public school sponsored neighborhood Christmas caroling. One night in the weeks leading up to Christmas, everyone would gather--parents and children--and go out caroling in the neighborhood. We'd have over a hundred people. Then we'd go back to the school for cookies and cocoa.
Now you can't even sing Christmas carols at school. It's stupid.
But it's equally stupid to demand that people only acknowledge Christmas and get irritated with stores where people say "Happy Holidays."
Aren't there bigger things to worry about in this day and age?
RM, looking forward to your speech! 
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:21 pm |
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I don't get irritated when someone says "Happy Holidays" to me - usually. It's when businesses tell their employees that they can't say Merry Christmas, that they must say Happy Holidays, that they can't display the words "Merry Christmas" in stores, and so forth when 95% of the country celebrates Christmas (some sources have that number at 96%) and 3% is offended by it.
As for my speech...I've been told it's a good one, even by people who disagree with me (which is most of the Debate team, lol), so I get the idea that it's good, even if you don't agree with it. I give it well, too, but still have memorization problems. Parts of the speech, mind you, are better heard than read, particularly my opening.
Anyways, here's the text. I hope you all like it, even if you disagree with it, in whole or in part
| Quote: | The War on Faith
�A Speech�
. Have a Holly Jolly Christmas,
. It�s the best time of the year.
. Oh by golly have a Holly Jolly�Christmas?
Whoa, hold on a second. I know I can�t sing, sure, but Holly Jolly Christmas? What was I thinking singing that? I might offend someone. Perhaps I should�ve said Holly Jolly Holiday? Come to think of it, what about my Christmas tree? Perhaps my family should do what a bunch of cities have done and call it a Holiday Tree? We could put up Holiday Ornaments and go rockin� around the Holiday Tree, at the holiday party hop.
The point that I�m trying to make is that the guise of political correctness has gone out of hand, so far as to bring us into a virtual war on Christmas.
Christmas is about the birth of Jesus. To Christians he is Lord and Savior and the Son of God. To others he could well be seen as a philosopher, one who disseminated a vast, universal moral message to people. And his teachings undoubtedly had great influence on the founding ideals and Founding Fathers of this country.
The 41st Congress of the United States spoke to this when, on June 28th, 1870, it voted almost unanimously to make Christmas a federal holiday. It was subsequently signed into law by President Ulysses S. Grant. And yet, as I will now explain, the edifice of Christmas is slowly being eroded in the public eye.
+ Item: Christmas carols in schools across the country must be majority secular, not even referencing the religious meaning behind the holiday. For instance, an elementary school in Wisconsin took the song �Joy to the World,� scrapped the lyrics, and replaced them with entirely secular one. They then had the children sing the song at their school holiday pageant.
According to US News and World Report, 95% of Americans celebrate Christmas and 84% professes to be Christian. Peter Gentala of the Center for Arizona Policy said, �When we celebrate a holiday like Christmas, where 9[5]% of the country celebrates Christmas, is we�re teaching our kids about the tradition, and you can�t teach kids about the tradition if you�re uniquely disadvantaging the religious sides of the holiday.�
+ Item: A judge in Northern California banned Christmas in schools under his jurisdiction but allowed students to celebrate the Day of the Dead.
+ Item: New York City Public Schools have banned the Nativity scene but allow for the display of the Jewish Menorah and Muslim Star and Crescent � religious symbols.
+ Item: The larger message of Christmas � that of peace and goodwill towards men � is a universal theme not prone solely to Christianity.
+ Item: The words �Merry Christmas� have been removed from stores and government establishments across the country, despite the fact that, according to a 2005 Gallup poll, only 3% of Americans are offended by the words �Merry Christmas."
+ Item: Christmas Break has also been undermined by the education system in recent years. For instance, my school district has done the "politically correct" thing and dubbed it �Winter Break,� as has the state of Georgia and numerous other places. And yet I ask you: what holiday does it always and intentionally surround? It�s not Kwanza, and it�s most certainly not the shifting holiday of Hanukah. It�s not New Year�s Day, which just so happens to be the day after the standard two-week break this year, either. The answer is Christmas. Now, why is it that that break happens to surround Christmas and New Years is a day separated from the mainstream two weeks? It�s because of the nature and importance of the federal holiday of Christmas, ladies and gentlemen.
Even while being offended at the fact that Christmas is a federal holiday, my Jewish AP Government and Politics teacher calls Christmas Break what it is. If a Jew can do it, so can us all, right? If you want to change the name of the break, which is Christmas Break, discontinue Christmas�s status as a federal holiday. Until that happens, just call it what it is.
Two years ago, a week before Christmas my family and I were in the car going to see the Christmas Spectacular show, and we were listening to the radio. At one point there was a commercial for a store, talking about �all your holiday needs� and this and that. But then the announcer said two words that stood out to me: holiday ornaments. Could somebody please tell me which prominent seasonal holiday uses ornaments � which holiday was the entire reason for this commercial in the first place?
And finally, New York City�s mayor Michael Bloomberg declared that their long-standing tradition of a Christmas tree in Times Square be renamed Holiday tree, which has been retroactively done in numerous cities across the country, as well as Canada.
Professor Barry Levy, an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi and head of religious studies at Montreal�s McGrill University, remarked upon a similar controversy over the Nathan Phillips Square Christmas tree in Toronto, Canada, which the city�s special events staff had renamed �Holiday tree� in 2002. The Rabbi remarked upon this, stating at the time, �I believe that this is an unnecessary attempt to secularize Christmas. That object is identified as a Christmas tree � it�s not a Hanukah bush, it�s not a winter tree, it�s not a festive tree � it�s a Christmas tree � we all know it for what it is. Quite frankly I�m offended on behalf of Christians for whom it�s a symbol of some importance � that they should have a religious symbol converted into a secular one just in order to accommodate it into public display.�
But why wouldn�t it be logical for even a Jew to recognize what it is? After all, what other prominent seasonal holiday uses a tree?
There is without a doubt a clear assault being waged on Christmas, and all I�ve listed for you is just the tip of the iceberg. And yet the assault on Christmas is merely a critical battlefield in a greater war � what I call the War on Faith, a war being waged by a powerful yet small movement of Secular-Progressives, or S-Ps, a term coined by political pundit Bill O�Reilly. These are secular individuals that seek to drastically change this country, including transform it into a state void of religion in public life and universal moral judgments.
The S-Ps want virtually no restrictions on any kind of abortion, including partial-birth abortion, and regardless of the circumstances. They support euthanasia, virtually nonexistent punishments for child sex offenders, legalized narcotics, the redefinition of marriage, teenage condom distribution, more open sexuality � the list goes on and on. In essence, they want no moral judgments on human behavior.
And in order to succeed in this country, the S-Ps must successfully deemphasize religion in public life, which has been done in Western Europe. One means of doing this is to disassociate the Christmas holiday from government and public life because it is a huge display of religious tradition and values in America.
The intention of the S-P movement is not to "spread tolerance" and prevent individuals from being "offended," as they lead us to believe, but it is rather to shift religion out of public life to push forth their radical, country-altering, secularist, permissive, nonjudgmental agenda. We cannot afford to become secularized like Canada and Western Europe.
A secularized Western Europe has already been achieved. For instance, quite remarkably, only 15% of Italians�traditionally religious Roman Catholics�consider themselves religious. Only 21% of Europeans as a whole see religion as a �very important� factor in their lives.
In Europe fewer and fewer people believe that sin exists, meaning that little remorse can come from their harmful actions, hence an incredibly permissive atmosphere. For instance, the sex consent age in the Netherlands is 12! And in Canada it�s 14, which is why NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association, a sexually deviant secular-progressive outlet, has moved to Canada.
Speaking of Canada, in 1980, 79% of Canadians said that religion was �important to the country,� whereas less than 61% do now, coinciding with the rise of secularism in their society. The country has since legalized gay marriage and euthanasia, as has much of Western Europe, and Canada and much of Western Europe now allow all kinds of abortions, circumstances be damned!
According to a Russian public opinion and market research group, Romir, Europeans believe that �there are no absolutely unambiguous rules on what is good and evil that applies to everyone, irrespective of the circumstances.� 19th-century French historian Alexis de Tocqueville believed that, quote, �the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom almost always move in contrary directions.� Such a philosophy is the center of the S-P movement, which wants an overly-permissive society, one void of religion in order to achieve what they see as �progress� and �true freedom.� And for America, it is a dangerous philosophy.
If we allow the Secular-Progressives to win this war, then we will allow this to happen � we will allow them to enact their moral-void agenda, and we will face drastic changes to this country that will make the America of tomorrow look entirely different from that of today. I urge you to join in this struggle and to take a stand against the secular-progressive movement so as to help preserve American culture, heritage, history, and tradition. Thank you. |
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Leo Wyatt
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:47 pm |
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I think the war on Christmas is just crazy. Let everyone just say what they want. Noone is not going to stop me for saying Merry Christmas. Why the big fuss? I guess cause people get offended to easily over something that they can compromize yeah I know I misspelled again.
If someone says happy holidays I won't bash them and I will not be rude. I just smile and nod. I know last time I had this old attitude towards this issue. But, I don't think Christmas shouldn't be taken out cause of some people that don't want it. It is easy to just don't celebrate it if they don't want christmas. In my opinion it is just being scrooge like lol no offense no bash intended.
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:58 pm |
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It's almost funny how we have to accomodate 4-5% of the country by changing tradition and calling things what they aren't. Honestly, it's pretty ridiculous.
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teya
Commander
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:05 pm |
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| Leo Wyatt wrote: | | It is easy to just don't celebrate it if they don't want christmas. In my opinion it is just being scrooge like lol no offense no bash intended. |
Well, not really Scrooge. Some people celebrate other holidays. And some people make Christmas a celebration of a different sort.
Like me. I go to Midnight Mass because, well, I just love the service and I get to sing Christmas carols. Then on Christmas Day, I go out with friends for what one of 'em calls "Jewish Christmas." It's what he always did with his family while growing up--go out for Chinese (and it *must* be Chinese, that's the tradition *grin* ) and a movie. It's just a way to enjoy the day even if you're not Christian.
RM, will read later when I get home. Right now, I've got to get ready for a ... Holiday Party. It's a holiday party because the doctor sponsoring it is Jewish and works for a Jewish hospital. But no one is excluded and he wouldn't get irritated if someone wished him a Merry Christmas as they left. 
One question: do you sing your opening? *grin*
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:09 pm |
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| teya wrote: | RM, will read later when I get home. Right now, I've got to get ready for a ... Holiday Party. It's a holiday party because the doctor sponsoring it is Jewish and works for a Jewish hospital. But no one is excluded and he wouldn't get irritated if someone wished him a Merry Christmas as they left.
One question: do you sing your opening? *grin* |
And that's fine. I wouldn't expect a Jew to host a Christmas party at a Jewish hospital, lol. Have fun!
lol, I do, yes, hence the, "I know I can't sing, sure," portion of the speech 
When you do read, though, could you give me your opinion of the speech as well, and not just your opinion on the points?
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Hitchhiker
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:40 pm |
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Treating this issue like a "war" with "winners" and "losers" creates an unnecessary mentality.
It is not a war. There are no winners or losers, or at least there wouldn't be if people stopped making a big deal out of it.  People just happen to think differently. Ignore those people who get offended by what you decide to do, and do it anyway, because that's your choice. Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:46 pm |
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I can give you upwards of 20 more incidents, if not more, of attacks on Christmas. And I wouldn't call this a literal War on Christmas, but it's a virtual one, and it is happening. The evidence is all around us. And there can be winners and losers in this war too.
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Hitchhiker
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:13 am |
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Calling it a war is an antagonistic misnomer that just adds fuel to the fire.
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:20 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Calling it a war is an antagonistic misnomer that just adds fuel to the fire. |
Calling it a virtual war is calling it what it is. And if it adds fuel to the fire, it does it in the sense that it mobilizes those people who support tradition to fight against the S-Ps.
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Puck
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:45 am |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | Treating this issue like a "war" with "winners" and "losers" creates an unnecessary mentality.
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I agree completly with this. I don't think this was a big deal until last year when the media decided to make it one. Then, suddenly it is all of the sudden a war with the super-religious christians fighting the secular. Everyone just needs to stop worrying about offending and say what they deem is appropriate in their eyes. Ordering nativity seens and stuff to be taken down is stupid, but as far as what kind of greeting people use, who cares?
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:48 am |
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| Puck wrote: | | Hitchhiker wrote: | Treating this issue like a "war" with "winners" and "losers" creates an unnecessary mentality.
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I agree completly with this. I don't think this was a big deal until last year when the media decided to make it one. Then, suddenly it is all of the sudden a war with the super-religious christians fighting the secular. Everyone just needs to stop worrying about offending and say what they deem is appropriate in their eyes. Ordering nativity seens and stuff to be taken down is stupid, but as far as what kind of greeting people use, who cares? |
It goes way beyond what kind of greeting you give, Puck. Read my speech for a few instances.
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Puck
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:12 am |
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I do agree there is a war on faith, but that being said, I feel this war on Christmas is being over emphasized. I think alot of the blame for this could be placed on the faithful turning the celebration into a secular commercial holiday.
One thing I must say though, is that I do not understand why atheists or agnostics celebrate Christmas. I know some that do and it puzzles me why someone would celebrate something they don't believe in.
Whatever though. I see your point...I just think this is sometimes overemphasized.
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:27 am |
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Well, I talk so much about Christmas because I believe it is a critical sub-war in the greater War on Faith, as I describe in the speech. It is essential, if the S-Ps want to win the even greater Culture War (which I purposely don't touch on but is one and the same), they disassociate Christmas with government and public life. Otherwise, though it's been secularized and commercialized, the holiday will still remain in place and in prominance, getting in the way of their agenda. That's the very reason why I think this war on Christmas concept is a big deal.
As for atheists and agnostics, I specifically state in my speech how Christmas also, secularly-speaking, could be seen as a holiday celebrating the birth of a philosopher, one who disseminated a vast, universal moral message to people. And since Jesus's teachings undoubtedly had great influence on the Founding Fathers, if individuals choose to celebrate the birth of him as a philosopher, I have no problem with that. When they're just mooching off the holiday for presents and stuff, I don't like it, but I won't go as far as I did, oh, two years ago when I told a friend that he had hijacked Christianity for his own purposes. But the fact that they celebrate it gives a basis to the argument that Christmas is a broad-ranging holiday celebrated by all but 4 to 5 percent of America, and therefore nothing is wrong with having it in the government as a federal holiday and in the public.
I suggest you check out the case Ganulin v. United States. It revolves around a lawsuit declaring Christmas's status as a federal holiday unconstitutional from back in 1999. A motion to dismiss the case was granted by the court, the government essentially taking the position that Christmas isn't just a religious holiday - it's a secular, and therefore constitutionally permissible, holiday as well. Honestly, I agree with them and have no problem with that ruling.
More secular or not, it's still a key symbol of religion, tradition, and values in America, and quite frankly I'd like it to maintain the prominence it has in this country, not lessen it because we can't have it secular. I may be religious to a point, but I'm not devout enough to declare that such a thing is that bad.
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Puck
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:40 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | Well, I talk so much about Christmas because I believe it is a critical sub-war in the greater War on Faith, as I describe in the speech. It is essential, if the S-Ps want to win the even greater Culture War (which I purposely don't touch on but is one and the same), they disassociate Christmas with government and public life. Otherwise, though it's been secularized and commercialized, the holiday will still remain in place and in prominance, getting in the way of their agenda. That's the very reason why I think this war on Christmas concept is a big deal.
None the less though, the secularized version of Christmas is worthless and if we are going to accept that as ok, we might as well just start using "Happy Holidays". You yourself stated that, "Christmas is about the birth of Jesus." This is true, and this is what the focus needs to be on. However, what has gotten us into this problem of eliminating Christ from the season is settling for the secularized version of this holiday. If the majority of Christians truely wanted it to be more religious, it would be. Like you said, the numbers would be in our favor. Unfortunately, poll numbers don't reflect the amount of zeal everyone has.
As for atheists and agnostics, I specifically state in my speech how Christmas also, secularly-speaking, could be seen as a holiday celebrating the birth of a philosopher, one who disseminated a vast, universal moral message to people. And since Jesus's teachings undoubtedly had great influence on the Founding Fathers, if individuals choose to celebrate the birth of him as a philosopher, I have no problem with that. When they're just mooching off the holiday for presents and stuff, I don't like it, but I won't go as far as I did, oh, two years ago when I told a friend that he had hijacked Christianity for his own purposes. But the fact that they celebrate it gives a basis to the argument that Christmas is a broad-ranging holiday celebrated by all but 4 to 5 percent of America, and therefore nothing is wrong with having it in the government as a federal holiday and in the public.
Jesus wasn't a philosopher though, as much as many non-Christians and Christians would like to make him nothing more than this, that would be a lie. So celebrating the birth of a philosopher is essentially celebrating a false belief. I would not promote such a practice.
I suggest you check out the case Ganulin v. United States. It revolves around a lawsuit declaring Christmas's status as a federal holiday unconstitutional from back in 1999. A motion to dismiss the case was granted by the court, the government essentially taking the position that Christmas isn't just a religious holiday - it's a secular, and therefore constitutionally permissible, holiday as well. Honestly, I agree with them and have no problem with that ruling.
Perhaps. I honestly think we need to acknowledge that there are two different celebrations going on here, on the same day. However, they are not both celebrating the same thing, so they should not bec called the same thing. |
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:51 am |
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See, that's where we differ. Yes, I believe we need to keep Christ in Christmas and that that's not happening, so the secularization of the holiday has gone too far, but I'm fine with people practicing Christmas as the celebration of the birth of a philosopher whose teachings greatly influence the founding of this nation.
My beaf here is that the S-Ps are trying to shut Christmas out, thereby totally removing religious tradition from the public square, and that's exactly what they're doing. I don't agree with you on the aspects of secularization so much, on the two holidays, etc.
So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. You're taking the hard-lined religious stance, the S-Ps are taking the hard-lined secularist stance, and I'm taking something that's more to the religious side and not really centered on the idea that Christmas as is is worthless and no longer has any real significance to it.
My goal isn't to de-secularize the holiday and make fewer people qualify to celebrate it. My goal is to maintain some semblance of religion and tradition in public life, and keeping Christmas in the public square, even as is (and especially as is because it wouldn't work any ohter way), is essential to that goal.
I want a society which continues to maintain moral judgments and so forth, not a secular-progressive society. That's my goal with the war on Christmas - keeping that holiday in the public square to help with the overall War on Faith.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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