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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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 Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:54 pm First Muslim in Congress under fire before he gets there... |
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| Quote: | Newly elected Muslim lawmaker under fire
by Andrea Stone, USA Today
WASHINGTON � The first Muslim elected to Congress hasn't been sworn into office yet, but his act of allegiance has already been criticized by a conservative commentator.
In a column posted Tuesday on the conservative website Townhall.com, Dennis Prager blasted Minnesota Democrat Keith Ellison's decision to take the oath of office Jan. 4 with his hand on a Quran, the Muslim holy book.
"He should not be allowed to do so," Prager wrote, "not because of any American hostility to the Koran, but because the act undermines American culture."
He said Ellison, a convert from Catholicism, should swear on a Christian Bible � which "America holds as its holiest book. � If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress." |
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-12-01-muslim-lawmaker_x.htm
I doubt Joe Lieberman was sworn in on a Christian Bible...
Discuss. 
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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:05 pm |
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I wonder how they would feel if they were all forced to use the Koran to be sworn in. I think they may change their opinion then.
I think he can be sworn in on whatever holy book his religion uses.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:13 pm |
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People are so hostile to the muslim religion, and I have a very difficult time with that. Granted, muslims are the source of the military resistence in the current war, killing many of our men, and they commited the 9/11 attacks. But... to blanket-hate them, and do things like this, removing options that people of other religions (Christianity) have? Certainly given what Christians did in the past...
There is absolutely no reason to prevent this man from swearing in on the Koran. Other than prejudice, what other motivation could there be? (serious question, if anyone has a good answer)
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:18 pm |
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Arellia, the best reasoning I can think of would be tradition. But that doesn't seem as important as his Constitutional rights to me...
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:21 pm |
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Mmm...tradition is and illogical basis for an argument, in general. "It's always been like this" doesn't defend anything.  (This I'm throwing out there, not directed at you, Trekkie). Though yeah, I could see that being a motivation... albeit a bad one. I shudder to imagine the look of the mangled seperation between church and state clause.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:34 pm |
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I don't think this is right, telling someone they shouldn;t or cant serve because they choose not to swear in on a christian bible? Where is this country going to?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:36 pm Re: First Muslim in Congress under fire before he gets there |
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| teya wrote: | | I doubt Joe Lieberman was sworn in on a Christian Bible... |
Actually, that's not necessarily true. He may well have been, for numerous Jews have been sworn in on the Bible. That's an argument those advocating "Bible-only" swearing have made. That said...
| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Arellia, the best reasoning I can think of would be tradition. But that doesn't seem as important as his Constitutional rights to me... |
My AP Gov teacher talked about this today, and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that it is ridiculous. Sure, you can put up the "tradition" argument, but if he doesn't believe in the Bible, then he should be free to choose on which book he wishes to swear. It's not as though a Muslim really can rightfully swear on the Bible when he doesn't believe in it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:43 pm Re: First Muslim in Congress under fire before he gets there |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | teya wrote: | | I doubt Joe Lieberman was sworn in on a Christian Bible... |
Actually, that's not necessarily true. He may well have been, for numerous Jews have been sworn in on the Bible. That's an argument those advocating "Bible-only" swearing have made. |
I haven't been able to find any confirmation one way or another about Lieberman. However Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz from Florida insisted on being sworn in on the Tanakh--which is the Jewish Bible--the OT only. She forgot to bring her own and had to borrow one from Rep. Gary Ackerman from NY. So, it's obvious that Jewish lawmakers have used Jewish bibles.
I can't imagine, however, why Joe Lieberman--who is an Orthodox Jew--would agree to be sworn in on a Christian Bible. And from this picture linked below, it doesn't even look like a full Tanakh. I wouldn't be surprised if he's simply using the Torah.
Link
Click on the pic of Lieberman with his daughter and Papa Bush, then click on second pic from bottom.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Location: Classified
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 7:49 pm |
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I was only pointing out that it's possible that he was sworn in otherwise, not arguing that he was
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:04 pm |
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Dennis Prager is an idiot who did not consider the ramifications of his suggestion.
Okay, an oath of allegiance is sworn on the Christian Bible ("traditionally") because swearing on the Bible is essentially "a promise before God", right? One is swearing on something that is a physical manifestation of all that is good and holy to one's religion.
Now, if Ellison had sworn on the Bible, instead of the Quran, would that not make his oath null and void? In essence, he would be able to betray the US, because he wasn't really swearing on something in which he believed, so there would be no consequences to his actions.
Therefore, in order to make his oath binding, he should be forced to swear on something he considers holy, and I would wager that the Quran is a good choice in that case.
Speaking of which:
| Quote: | | If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress. |
That is clearly discrimination against handless people who want to serve in Congress!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:20 pm |
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| Quote: | | Now, if Ellison had sworn on the Bible, instead of the Quran, would that not make his oath null and void? In essence, he would be able to betray the US, because he wasn't really swearing on something in which he believed, so there would be no consequences to his actions. |
Exactly, and that's a better way of putting one of the things I said.
This "controversey" is absolutely ridiculous and unneccesary.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:18 pm |
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How do athiests get sworn in?
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:23 pm |
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| La Forge wrote: | | How do athiests get sworn in? |
They don't swear. They "affirm."
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:48 pm |
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Alrighty. Thanks. I've always wondered that. By the way...Heh. I'm an athiest.
But, yeah...That's just stupid, what that idiot said. Someone should be able to swear on the holy item of their religion, if they are religious, as everyone here has already said. Heh.
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:59 pm |
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If I ever got elected, I'd swear on an issue on PCG.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:48 am Re: First Muslim in Congress under fire before he gets there |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Arellia, the best reasoning I can think of would be tradition. But that doesn't seem as important as his Constitutional rights to me... |
My AP Gov teacher talked about this today, and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that it is ridiculous. Sure, you can put up the "tradition" argument, but if he doesn't believe in the Bible, then he should be free to choose on which book he wishes to swear. It's not as though a Muslim really can rightfully swear on the Bible when he doesn't believe in it. |
RM, I think I'm in shock. I believe that this is the second issue you and I have found common ground on this week? One of them being stem cell.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:23 am Re: First Muslim in Congress under fire before he gets there |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: |
| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Arellia, the best reasoning I can think of would be tradition. But that doesn't seem as important as his Constitutional rights to me... |
My AP Gov teacher talked about this today, and I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that it is ridiculous. Sure, you can put up the "tradition" argument, but if he doesn't believe in the Bible, then he should be free to choose on which book he wishes to swear. It's not as though a Muslim really can rightfully swear on the Bible when he doesn't believe in it. |
RM, I think I'm in shock. I believe that this is the second issue you and I have found common ground on this week? One of them being stem cell. |
Only to an extent on that one  And notice, though, how when we agree it's usually me taking the opposite position of what would be expected
No, I really don't see a problem with this. I wouldn't trust a Muslim to swear on the Holy Bible. At least the Old Testiment (half the Bible) is also in the Jewish faith (for the most part). That's not the case for the Koran, so I wouldn't trust a Muslim to swear on the Bible. He should swear on his own Holy Book.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:40 am |
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I certainly would not want a Muslim swearing in on a Bible, nor would I any other person who does not understand what it is. A Muslim or atheist being sworn in on a Bible undermines the whole point, and I personally would find it rather offensive.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:47 am |
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The man should use the Koran to be sworn in. As others have said, it negates the point of being sworn in if you're not doing it on something that you feel morally holds you justifiable for wrongs doings you may commit. Essentially, it's your pledge to God that you will do no wrong while in office. Wow, God must be dissapointed by the myriad of politicians.
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