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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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 Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:35 pm California Students Ban Pledge of Allegiance |
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| Quote: | Leaders Do Not Want to Recite Loyalty to God or Government
LOS ANGELES (Nov. 11) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.
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The only link I have is an AOL one.
Link
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:39 pm |
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Freedom of speech, eh? I certainly hope they're not limiting anyone from doing it though.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:42 pm |
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How disgusting. I hope they leave the country-we don't need people like that in the United States.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:44 pm Re: California Students Ban Pledge of Allegiance |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Quote: | Leaders Do Not Want to Recite Loyalty to God or Government
LOS ANGELES (Nov. 11) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.
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The only link I have is an AOL one.
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They live in America...but don't want to pledge allegiance to America?
I'm reminded of an Albert Einstein qoute...
There are only two things that are infinite-the universe, and stupidity...and I am not even sure about the former.--Albert Einstein
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:46 pm |
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Idiots. Absolute idiots. This makes my friend saying the words "Under God" as fast as can be like a teenager calling someone "stupid."
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:47 pm |
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Banning it is a bit on the extreme side...But I can see their logic. I belive it was Kissinger who said "the highest form of patriotism is dissent", but I could be wrong.
What is the point of publicly swearing loyalty to both God and the government? If I wanted to proclaim my loyalty to God I'd pray in church. If I want to proclaim my loyalty to Americal, I'll vote. Actions speak much louder than words.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:49 pm |
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I've never declared my loyalty to God in the Pledge of Allegiance, so I don't know where you're all getting that from. I'm pledging to the country and to the flag of the country, not to God. It just so happens that this nation is under God, and that those words are in the pledge. If you don't want to say them, don't say them. But ban it altogether? That's disrespectful.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:53 pm |
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Well I certainly think this action of banning the pledge speaks very loudly about how they feel about America. These people have shown they don't care about America what it stands for. In fact, they have shown they don't like it. As for the quote, well that may be correct in some instances, but I wouldn't use it as a means to give a broad thumbs up to everyone who speaks out against their country.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:01 pm |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Banning it is a bit on the extreme side...But I can see their logic. I belive it was Kissinger who said "the highest form of patriotism is dissent", but I could be wrong. |
I really need to know why Liberals always say that quote in defense of bashing America, the president, etc. People always say that the Founding Fathers would be proud of them and all this stuff. No they wouldn't. All those quotes were pertaining to the oppressive monarchy in England. They were saying that in America you have the right to fight back against oppressive governments. In America, you no longer need to fear the government, the government fears you. The problem is, Liberals twisted it and turned it into "If the government does the TINIEST thing we may not like, let's rebel!" That's not the way it works. The Founding Fathers wanted rebelling against the government to be done when it's necessary.
Is being forced to plegde allegience to the country you live in, oppressive?
Some people in this site talk about how now that the Democrats are in power, the end of "religious fanatasicm" is at hand. What are you talking about? You think we were living in a theocracy?
You think Bush was oppressive? You don't know what oppression is.
So if you all think, that this is bad as can get, then I think Americans have become ridiculously spoiled. That's sad. Fight for REAL causes Liberals. Fight against disease. Fight against poverty. Fight against war. Not stupid things like this.
I'm slowly beginning to regret saying that the Dem. taking Congress isn't a bad thing...
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:13 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | TrekkieMage wrote: | | Banning it is a bit on the extreme side...But I can see their logic. I belive it was Kissinger who said "the highest form of patriotism is dissent", but I could be wrong. |
I really need to know why Liberals always say that quote in defense of bashing America, the president, etc. People always say that the Founding Fathers would be proud of them and all this stuff. No they wouldn't. All those quotes were pertaining to the oppressive monarchy in England. They were saying that in America you have the right to fight back against oppressive governments. In America, you no longer need to fear the government, the government fears you. The problem is, Liberals twisted it and turned it into "If the government does the TINIEST thing we may not like, let's rebel!" That's not the way it works. The Founding Fathers wanted rebelling against the government to be done when it's necessary.
Is being forced to plegde allegience to the country you live in, oppressive?
Some people in this site talk about how now that the Democrats are in power, the end of "religious fanatasicm" is at hand. What are you talking about? You think we were living in a theocracy?
You think Bush was oppressive? You don't know what oppression is.
So if you all think, that this is bad as can get, then I think Americans have become ridiculously spoiled. That's sad. Fight for REAL causes Liberals. Fight against disease. Fight against poverty. Fight against war. Not stupid things like this.
I'm slowly beginning to regret saying that the Dem. taking Congress isn't a bad thing... |
Wow...well said, Founder. I honestly cannot believe people do this sort of thing, scream they have rights, bash people that get upset about this, and wont leave. They love thier freedoms, but cant stand the governmetn and laws...BAH
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:24 pm |
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| Quote: | | People always say that the Founding Fathers would be proud of them and all this stuff. No they wouldn't. All those quotes were pertaining to the oppressive monarchy in England. They were saying that in America you have the right to fight back against oppressive governments. In America, you no longer need to fear the government, the government fears you. The problem is, Liberals twisted it and turned it into "If the government does the TINIEST thing we may not like, let's rebel!" That's not the way it works. The Founding Fathers wanted rebelling against the government to be done when it's necessary. |
By Kissinger she meant former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, which I believe was in the Nixon administration, not a Founding Father.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:27 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Quote: | | People always say that the Founding Fathers would be proud of them and all this stuff. No they wouldn't. All those quotes were pertaining to the oppressive monarchy in England. They were saying that in America you have the right to fight back against oppressive governments. In America, you no longer need to fear the government, the government fears you. The problem is, Liberals twisted it and turned it into "If the government does the TINIEST thing we may not like, let's rebel!" That's not the way it works. The Founding Fathers wanted rebelling against the government to be done when it's necessary. |
By Kissinger she meant former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, which I believe was in the Nixon administration, not a Founding Father. |
lol good Lord man...
I wasn't calling Kissinger a founding father.
However, the founding fathers did have quotes that talked about what Kissinger said.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:51 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Quote: | | People always say that the Founding Fathers would be proud of them and all this stuff. No they wouldn't. All those quotes were pertaining to the oppressive monarchy in England. They were saying that in America you have the right to fight back against oppressive governments. In America, you no longer need to fear the government, the government fears you. The problem is, Liberals twisted it and turned it into "If the government does the TINIEST thing we may not like, let's rebel!" That's not the way it works. The Founding Fathers wanted rebelling against the government to be done when it's necessary. |
By Kissinger she meant former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, which I believe was in the Nixon administration, not a Founding Father. |
lol good Lord man...
I wasn't calling Kissinger a founding father.
However, the founding fathers did have quotes that talked about what Kissinger said. |
But you replied with that quoting her Kissinger quote, lol. It didn't add up 
But no, you're right. The point was right on. It just didn't seem to fit
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:01 pm |
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They're their meetings, they should be able to decide how they want to conduct them. Kind of silly, though.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:29 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | TrekkieMage wrote: | | Banning it is a bit on the extreme side...But I can see their logic. I belive it was Kissinger who said "the highest form of patriotism is dissent", but I could be wrong. |
I really need to know why Liberals always say that quote in defense of bashing America, the president, etc. People always say that the Founding Fathers would be proud of them and all this stuff. No they wouldn't. All those quotes were pertaining to the oppressive monarchy in England. They were saying that in America you have the right to fight back against oppressive governments. In America, you no longer need to fear the government, the government fears you. The problem is, Liberals twisted it and turned it into "If the government does the TINIEST thing we may not like, let's rebel!" That's not the way it works. The Founding Fathers wanted rebelling against the government to be done when it's necessary.
Is being forced to plegde allegience to the country you live in, oppressive?
Some people in this site talk about how now that the Democrats are in power, the end of "religious fanatasicm" is at hand. What are you talking about? You think we were living in a theocracy?
You think Bush was oppressive? You don't know what oppression is.
So if you all think, that this is bad as can get, then I think Americans have become ridiculously spoiled. That's sad. Fight for REAL causes Liberals. Fight against disease. Fight against poverty. Fight against war. Not stupid things like this.
I'm slowly beginning to regret saying that the Dem. taking Congress isn't a bad thing... |
I don't believe that's the case. I don't think people should rebel about the littlest things, that makes for a very ineffective government. I also said that I thought they were taking this to an extreme.
As for declairing loyalty to God in the pledge - to those who do believe in a God I can see how it would seem like it's not there. However, if one does not feel like they are being led by a God, then having the words "One Nation under God" in the pledge can feel like they're having other values forced on them.
However, a much more effective approach to the situation would be to just stop saying those words rather than ban the entire pledge...
I brought up Kissinger because I feel like people (*usually* conservatives, but not always) tend to forget that disagreeing with someone isn't anti-American. Patriotism is not waving a plastic flag, it's voting and using the system the way it's designed to be used. And that's what these people are trying to do (maybe not the right way, but they're trying). They're probably trying to get it taken to court so that there can be a ruling on it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:08 pm |
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But patriotism isn't banning the Pledge of Allegiance altogether either. That's the opposite of patriotism.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:31 pm |
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As I said, what they're doing is extreme. However, I don't think that saying the Pledge of Allegiance is the highest form of partiotism one can show right now.
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:35 pm |
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This is a touchy subject. I have some friends who won't say the pledge because they find it to be like worshiping a pagan idol, others who won't say it because they don't like they way our country is headed, and others who say it religiously. Personally, in the morning when it comes time to say the pledge, I stand but I don't recite it. I don't feel the need to EVERY SINGLE DAY recite it. What bothers me is that people don't understand what its about, it really isn't pledging your allegience to God and the country. Its more than that (and it really doesn't have much to do with God).
I think banning it is a touch extreme, I think forcing people to recite it isn't right, I think it should be a choice, if you don't want to say it, don't say it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:55 pm |
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| Quote: | | I think banning it is a touch extreme, I think forcing people to recite it isn't right, I think it should be a choice, if you don't want to say it, don't say it. |
And that's the beauty of America - there is that choice.
I love the fact that we say it every day and always hate those few days when we don't. I also love the fact that these GOP breakfasts I go to always begin with the Pledge (and a prayer) as well.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:38 pm |
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They just don't want it to be an agenda item. They aren't forcing people not to say it though...
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:44 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | They just don't want it to be an agenda item. They aren't forcing people not to say it though... |
Yes, they are, at the meetings.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Admiral_Tom_Paris
Commodore
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 1785
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| Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:39 am |
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I kind of see their point, I don't like saying the "God" part in it, but I still do, (though for some reason, we only do it on Mondays at my school)
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Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
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| Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:49 pm |
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Oh come on. It only takes about 10 seconds of our pathetic lives to say it and you don't even have to. They obviously don't like this country. I personally say it every single day and feel damn proud when I do say it. The more I say it, the better I feel. It's a good way for me to start off the day.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:48 pm |
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| Kyle Reese wrote: | | Oh come on. It only takes about 10 seconds of our pathetic lives to say it and you don't even have to. They obviously don't like this country. I personally say it every single day and feel damn proud when I do say it. The more I say it, the better I feel. It's a good way for me to start off the day. |
How does it make them not like the USA if they choose not to say it? Also, how does it make you so much more patriotic to say it? I don't think it makes that much difference either way. I think the one scenerio in which the pledge is most patriotic is when a new citizen is being accepted into the country. Other than that, I think forcing school kids to say it every flipping morning diminishes its patriotism.
Oh, and I actually had to say it twice every morning in elementary school. Once in English and once in Spanish. Then junior year I had to hear it every morning during the morning announcements because I started the day at a different place than normal. It just sapped all the meaning out of it for me.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:57 pm |
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I can't think of a single meeting that I've attended since leaving high school 32 years ago that started with the pledge. Does this make the various public service groups I've been involved with unpatriotic?
As a matter of fact, the only time I remember reciting the pledge at all in the last 32 years was at my boyfriend's swearing in as a citizen. Does this make me unpatriotic?
It's not that I refuse to recite it--it's simply that I don't have cause. The pledge simply isn't recited at events and meetings I attend.
From the amount of debate this has received here, it sounds like some of you think we need to recite a loyalty oath daily to prove that we are loyal Americans. I disagree. As a matter of fact, such demands are common in totalitarian states, not in democratic ones.
Patriotism isn't waving flags and reciting rote pledges. Patriotism is taking the values of one's nation to heart. Patriotism is voting. Patriotism is being actively involved in one's community and nation. Patriotism is speaking out when one doesn't like the direction one's nation is taking.
Patriotism is the willingness to hear others speak out--even when you disagree with them.
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