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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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 Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:09 pm How to Solve the Iraq Crisis |
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| Quote: | Iraqi Gov't Postpones Reconciliation Conference; Violence Kills 63
BAGHDAD, Iraq � Iraq's government indefinitely postponed a much-anticipated national reconciliation conference on Sunday as at least 83 people were reported dead in a two-day spree of sectarian revenge killings and insurgent bombings.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,220941,00.html |
Okay, so the above news is bad. Now, I don't believe Iraq is as bad as the media is portraying it, but save for Kurdistan, everything there just seems to be a mess, even to me. I wouldn't call it chaos, but I'd call it a mess.
So, I started thinking, what needs to be done to solve the Iraq crisis? Pulling out clearly isn't an option because the propaganda tool that the terrorists would get would yield catastrophic effects. The tools they had after Somalia which boomed terrorist numbers in the 90s would be insignificant in comparison to those of a premature Iraq pullout.
But now we need a solution, and that's what this topic is about. It's not about the past or the screw-ups of the administration, Rumsfeld, or anyone else, why we're at war, and so on, but rather about the consideration and discussion of feasible solutions to the Iraq crisis.
We have sectarian violence--though I would not yet call it a civil war--left and right in the Sunni Triangle, and that's the crux of the problem. Al-Qaeda and Iran, I would say, are behind the violence and chaos there, and so we've got these huge problems.
Now, how do we solve it? Is a three-state solution the answer, as many analysts claim? Problem with that is that the Sunni's get screwed in terms of oil and economic interests, and certain areas are too difficult to separate Sunnis and Shi'as. So what is the answer?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:34 pm |
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You can't fight a belief. We're going to be involved in Iraq for many years to come, unfortunately, but I think it's their turn now. Their country. We need to scale back-- not OUT, we won't do that for a long time--but way, WAY back, and go on to other ventures. We're not doing anything there now. We're sitting around getting good soldiers killed.
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Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
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| Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:59 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | We're not doing anything there now. We're sitting around getting good soldiers killed. |
As if you know what our troops are doing.
The way I see it, the insurgency alone doesn't stand a chance against our military or the Iraqi Government, which is why they started this sectarian violence in the first place. Simply by already discussing withdrawing, we've boosted their morale. Definitely. They think that if they can keep the violence going and make it even worse then they can make withdrawing our only option. If we can get the Sunnis and Shiites to calm the hell down and stop slaughtering each other in the streets we can get back to fixing the country and crushing the insurgency. How exactly do we go about stopping the sectarian violence? Hell if I know, I'm not there. I don't know anything more specific than that 50+ Iraqis are being killed everyday. It's up to the Iraqis to settle their differences.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:50 pm |
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| Kyle Reese wrote: | | Arellia wrote: | | We're not doing anything there now. We're sitting around getting good soldiers killed. |
As if you know what our troops are doing. |
Kyle? My boyfriend is in the infantry. Yeah. I do have a pretty good idea of what the troops are doing--further, what the troops think of what we're doing--in Iraq. Thanks.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:05 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | Kyle? My boyfriend is in the infantry. Yeah. I do have a pretty good idea of what the troops are doing--further, what the troops think of what we're doing--in Iraq. Thanks. |
He's not in Iraq yet, though, so that's a little disingenuous to say, I think. Not that you don't know what many are saying, of course, because he's obviously around people who have fought there, but that's definitely important to note that, no?
And I've heard testimony from a recruiter at my school that I came up to and asked the question that the people he's talked to support the effort more than not, Hannity and others have numerous callers that are of the families of troops or of troops themselves angry about the Democratic rhetoric on this war and that support the president and the effort, a Lieutenant was just on the news today saying that those disgruntled with the war are fewer than those not, I've heard more testimony from troops that things are better than the media portrays and that they're disgusted with the media portrayal of the war, and I've heard other things regarding support for the war from troops as well.
For instance, here's a response to Kerry's comments from some of the troops in Iraq:
Now, one could say that it was merely an expression of distaste for Kerry's comments, and while that's true, there is clearly another aspect to it relating to a disagreement with him on the war.
So, from what I've read, seen, and heard from the families of servicemen and from troops themselves, I'd have to say that things are better than the media's portraying it (though not as much better as I once thought), that the troops are more supportive of the effort, and so forth.
And for the record for anyone who's interested, my cousin, who's in the Marines, will be going to Iraq in February. His exact location is currently unkown, but he will be going.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:07 pm |
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I Think Kerry's comment was stupid, and incredibly bad worded.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:08 pm |
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My cousin was in Iraq for a year, have a friend who was a medic, and my boyfriend's new brigade just got back last month, his drill sergeants were stationed in Iraq before they trained his unit. I think I meet the qualifications for "good idea on what the troops are doing/think." The guys I've met tend to describe it as being good only because it gives the infantry something to do, and it's boring to be in the infantry without a war. However, they don't think the war has a point or good plan. *shrugs* But then, I could just know all the black sheeps of the military, huh?
Last edited by Arellia on Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:10 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | My cousin was in Iraq for a year, have a friend who was a medic, and my boyfriend's new brigade just got back last month, his drill sergeants were stationed in Iraq before they trained his unit. I think I meet the qualifications for "good idea on what the troops are doing/think." |
And I alluded to, if not blatantly stated, the fact that you do.
| Quote: | | He's not in Iraq yet, though, so that's a little disingenuous to say, I think. Not that you don't know what many are saying, of course, because he's obviously around people who have fought there, but that's definitely important to note that, no? |
And right. I forgot about your cousin.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:18 pm |
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I think people should also realize that the men over there aren't supposed to publically defy the administration, anyway. As far as wars go this one isn't very bloody for us. However... I don't see the point of being there any more. A lot of people don't. I'd like to see the strategy being turned over more to the men who are on the ground, and a plan to finish it soon. I'm not saying we need to do a PR on exactly what the military's doing, but I'd feel much better hearing, "We are putting actions in motion towards the withdrawal..." rather than, "Stay the course."
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:24 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | I think people should also realize that the men over there aren't supposed to publically defy the administration, anyway. As far as wars go this one isn't very bloody for us. However... I don't see the point of being there any more. A lot of people don't. I'd like to see the strategy being turned over more to the men who are on the ground, and a plan to finish it soon. I'm not saying we need to do a PR on exactly what the military's doing, but I'd feel much better hearing, "We are putting actions in motion towards the withdrawal..." rather than, "Stay the course." |
In case you haven't noticed, we're not stay the course now. Actually, according to Bush, "We've never been stay the course." 
I believe it is an absolute necessity and that we will see a terrorist recruitment upsurge greater than at any point if we pull out. As I say in a speech I'm giving Wednesday for a mock presidential debate event Speech and Debate is hosting,
| Quote: | We are currently bogged down in Iraq, a major front in the War on Terror and a chaotic situation. Much as its opponents would like to make it seem as though it isn�t a key component of the War on Terror, it so clearly is, for al-Qaeda has centered its focus on that country and its battlefield. They�ve bet almost everything on it.
When the United States pulled out of Somalia in the 1990s, al-Qaeda saw this as a great weakness. Osama bin Laden and his cronies manipulated this withdrawal to their advantage, propagandizing it as proving America to be weak and using it as a major recruitment tool, dramatically increasing the amount of support for the Islamo-fascist cause, and in that conflict, we weren�t even fighting al-Qaeda. If we did the same for Iraq, where we are fighting against al-Qaeda, after all the trouble many Muslims in that region and throughout the world now feel we have caused, we will see a great upsurge in terrorist recruitment levels unseen at any point. |
I will argue further why we need to stay in Iraq tomorrow, if I have time, but I can't post anymore tonight or I'll be up past midnight with all the HW I've got. Kyle made a good argument in that post after the "As if you know what our troops are doing" comment, so for now I defer you to that one as well.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:55 pm |
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I can't answer what is happening there for sure. My uncle just finished serving a year in Iraq and survived. I told him that I was proud of what he was doing over there and he kind of hesitated, then responded with "We're not doing anything over there." I was greatly disturbed with his words. I actually recently learned, in Global Politics, that there are several options for Iraq. Personally, I support pertitioning the country. Divide Iraq into three states. A Kurdish state. A Shia state. A Sunni state. These people can not get along together and were only united because of England. It should be restored to it's original way.
We won't ever truly win in Iraq. We can fight terrorists and their organizations, but we never get rid of terrorism. Terrorism is an idea and they are "bulletproof".
The only Iraqis that really want us there are the Kurds and that's because we deposed Saddam. Even they are getting sick of us. It's time we restore what order we can and leave. It's over. I don't think we lost. We got rid of Saddam. That's enough.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:11 am |
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Oh, and one other serviceman of note that I've heard speak would be Major Mike Coffman who's running for Colorado Secretary of State. He was asked to return to the military for a 2004-2006 tour (or something like that) in which he dealt with organizing the elections for a large region in Iraq. He has kept close contact with numerous colleagues of his in the Marines and in Iraq and I've met him and heard him speak on it a few times before. And believe me, you can't find a better, more decent, more honest, nobler man than Major Coffman.
He believes the situation to be better than the media portrays it and has expressed that the troops on the ground, by and large, believe we're doing a good thing and need to get the job done, among other things (that he's expressed).
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:33 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | Oh, and one other serviceman of note that I've heard speak would be Major Mike Coffman who's running for Colorado Secretary of State. He was asked to return to the military for a 2004-2006 tour (or something like that) in which he dealt with organizing the elections for a large region in Iraq. He has kept close contact with numerous colleagues of his in the Marines and in Iraq and I've met him and heard him speak on it a few times before. And believe me, you can't find a better, more decent, more honest, nobler man than Major Coffman.
He believes the situation to be better than the media portrays it and has expressed that the troops on the ground, by and large, believe we're doing a good thing and need to get the job done, among other things (that he's expressed). |
Ok....I didn't say anything about that. There is no "job" though that needs to get done. Stabilising the nation will take triple the troops we have there. America will not support more troops, thus, we can't stabilise the country.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:40 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Ok....I didn't say anything about that. There is no "job" though that needs to get done. Stabilising the nation will take triple the troops we have there. America will not support more troops, thus, we can't stabilise the country. |
I was not responding to you. I was only adding more to my statements about feelings of the troops in response to the post Exalya made 
I cannot get into details of more thoughts right now, but I will ask one question of you since you support the concept of partitioning the country: How do you divide up the major mixed population centers of Baghdad and other cities? Do you force their citizens to migrate? What do you do? That`s the one problem with that concept.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
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Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:42 am |
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My husband was in Iraq twice and he knew what went on. I am sure when he gets off of work and he has time, he will make a post.I myself, can't say anything on this topic cause I am not a soldier and haven't been in Iraq.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:05 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
For instance, here's a response to Kerry's comments from some of the troops in Iraq:
Now, one could say that it was merely an expression of distaste for Kerry's comments, and while that's true, there is clearly another aspect to it relating to a disagreement with him on the war. |
And they could all be court marshalled for that. But the military is playing it off as one Minnisota national guard unit's joke.
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WeAz
Commodore
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Posts: 1519
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:40 pm |
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Court Martial? I doubt it...
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:55 pm |
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No, Link's right. That was a political statement. You are NOT supposed to make political statements in the military.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
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Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:29 am |
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| WeAz wrote: | | Court Martial? I doubt it... |
Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
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Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:37 am Re: How to Solve the Iraq Crisis |
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| Republican_Man wrote: |
Now, how do we solve it? |
I believe the question needs to be asked to both the soldiers (American, Australian, British etc), and to the Iraqi people.
The question is beyond the scope of a bunch of fat politicians in an air conditioned office in the American government deciding.
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Birdy
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| Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:53 pm |
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I don't think there's an easy answer to this, but I don't think anyone has that illusion.
Anyhow, what I hear on TV is Bush saying he wants to 'win' this war.
Sorry, but I don't see it that way. Winning? With all the casualties on BOTH sides? Come on.
I think one of the ways to 'resolve' this issue is for American troops to pull back. The country has to deal with this, not the Americans. Maybe we need some peace troops (is that the word for it? In Holland we say 'blue helmets')
But that's it. There'll be war for a while there, like there is in other parts of the world. Noone can stop that, not even America. They have to resolve this, as a country, and they have to overcome that. So they can be proud of themselves, move on, and install a government where the people can agree with. That's not for the world to decide, they have to do that.
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Nosce te ipsum
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Founder
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| Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:23 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: |
For instance, here's a response to Kerry's comments from some of the troops in Iraq:
Now, one could say that it was merely an expression of distaste for Kerry's comments, and while that's true, there is clearly another aspect to it relating to a disagreement with him on the war. |
And they could all be court marshalled for that. But the military is playing it off as one Minnisota national guard unit's joke. |
Oh my...struck a nerve with you did they?
As for this topic, I still think pertioning is a good solution. Restore Iraq to what it was before the British.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
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| Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:29 am |
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| Founder wrote: |
Oh my...struck a nerve with you did they?
As for this topic, I still think pertioning is a good solution. Restore Iraq to what it was before the British. |
Not really, just stating a fact because it seems many conservatives are using it as a political statement about the troops.
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webtaz99
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| Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:01 am |
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If Iraq is partitioned, it will only result in a 3-way (actually more, because it will spill over into neighboring countries) civil war.
It's obvious that the US can't supply enough troops to "stabilize" Iraq, and the rest of the world isn't helping (significantly).
We shouldn't be sitting around asking ourselves what the solution is.
We should be asking the Iraqi's why they haven't stepped up and done it themselves.
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Founder
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| Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:10 pm |
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| webtaz99 wrote: | If Iraq is partitioned, it will only result in a 3-way (actually more, because it will spill over into neighboring countries) civil war.
So? Sometimes nations need a civil war for stability. Ever heard of the American civil war? These people were forced together and they don't want it.
It's obvious that the US can't supply enough troops to "stabilize" Iraq, and the rest of the world isn't helping (significantly).
I'm well aware of that. That's why I think it's time we leave.
We shouldn't be sitting around asking ourselves what the solution is.
Yes, we should.
We should be asking the Iraqi's why they haven't stepped up and done it themselves. |
We've already asked that question...
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