| What happened to her? |
| The Prophets forgave her and she is in the Celestial Temple |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Her fate is with Pah-Wraiths and the Fire Caves for eternity |
|
71% |
[ 15 ] |
| Neither. Both sides don't affect the afterlife and left her to blink out of existance |
|
28% |
[ 6 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 21 |
|
| Author |
Message |
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
 Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:09 am Kai Winn's Fate... |
|
Kai Winn had been in DS9 since the beginning. She was power hungry and would often participate in schemes to ensure her position in society. She disliked Sisko for being the Emissary, since he was a "non-believer". The Prophets spoke to him constantly and never to her. She even prevented a powerful battle between the Prophets and Pah-Wraiths from finishing. This delayed the great cosmic battle between the two. Kai Winn then later went on to serve the Pah-Wraiths with Dukat. She was present in the battle between Sisko(the Prophet's emissary) and Dukat(Pah-Wraiths Emissary) in the last episode.
Spoiler:
| Quote: | | Winn warned Sisko that the book was the key to his defeat. She was killed by Dukat after she tried to help Sisko. Now, was this act enough to redeem her in the eyes of the Prophets or is she burning in the Fire -Caves with the Pah-Wraiths? Maybe neither side don't even care...? What do you all think? |
|
|
|
Alucard
Vampire
Joined: 06 Nov 2004
Posts: 2780
Location: Caaaaaanada
|
| Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:52 am |
|
Wow... Kai Winn, I honestly have no clue what would've happened to her.
|
|
|
magenta
Commander
Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 404
Location: AUSTRALIA
|
| Thu Oct 06, 2005 7:25 am |
|
 She was a pompus old bag and got what she deserved!!!After all the kaos she caused and hating sisko for being the emisary,spiteful and jeallous. 
|
|
|
Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
|
| Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:14 pm |
|
Kira should have beat the snot out of that old woman. But that would be wrong. lol I couldn't stand Kai Winn. To me she was an evil old woman in my opinion.
|
|
|
Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
|
| Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:47 pm |
|
Her whole life she never really wanted to serve The Prophets for the sake of serving them. She may have tried to do something when she figured out she was wrong in the end, but I somehow doubt it was out of true faith in The Prophets rather than fear that she was going to pay for what she'd done. So, yeah. Locked up with the Pah-Wraiths for eternity.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:13 pm |
|
You made an interesting point Exalya.
Although Chris and I were discussing this last night. Didn't it seem, at the end, when she called out to the Emmisary that maybe she believed? That she saw she was wrong?
A small, but maybe monumental, step in her redemption?
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:23 pm |
|
Maybe, she did display emtion when shey yelled for sisko
| Spoiler wrote: | | Emissarry!! The Book!!!" |
|
|
|
Blancie
Commodore
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 1119
Location: Shetland
|
| Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:00 am |
|
I hate Winn so much I shudder just thinking of her. (notice how I dropped the 'Kai' there!  )
She blinked out of existence, no question. she doesn't deserve to exist, in hell or otherwise.
-------signature-------
Davay davay davay!
|
|
|
iamthepolarbear
Senior Cadet
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Somewhere in the Outer rim of the Alpha Quad.
|
| Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:18 pm |
|
Glad to see here go.... but correct me if I am wrong... but didn't she come in on the second season?
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:00 pm |
|
Perhaps, but I was not asking if you all hated her, I asked a question about her fate after death. 
|
|
|
Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:29 pm |
|
She's stuck with the Pah-Wraiths, just like Dukat. The simple answer is because she deserved it.
But really, the Prophets can be jerks. They didn't like Sisko the first time they met him, and over the course of seven years, they were very terse in their dealings with him. Obviously they've let some people stay in the Celestial Temple, including Sisko, but I doubt that they would adopt Winn into their extended family. Although they hold a special "interest" in the Bajoran people, as it appears, we can't forget that they're non-corporeal aliens who have their own self-interest in mind too.
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Tue Nov 08, 2005 9:15 pm |
|
She did appear to repent in the end. Final decision, anyone (if you know what that is....  )?
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
|
| Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:24 am |
|
I liked Kai Winn's struggle...esp with Dukat.....
And by the way, Louise Fletcher is quite attractive . I should know, I have good pictures of her. 
|
|
|
iamthepolarbear
Senior Cadet
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Location: Somewhere in the Outer rim of the Alpha Quad.
|
| Sat Nov 19, 2005 11:50 pm |
|
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | She did appear to repent in the end. Final decision, anyone (if you know what that is.... )? |
Her final actions consisted of Winn telling Sisko how to destroy the Pai Wraiths, and either attempting to give the book of Costamojen(wrong sp, to tired to care) to Sisko, or trying to destroy it her self
|
|
|
Untitled
Commander
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 396
Location: abandoned
|
| Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:59 pm |
|
I don't know about her fate...but I hate the woman that's for damn sure. She's so fake! Reminds me of Martha Stewart. Ever since I saw "The Collaborater" I just wanted to reach in the screen and rip at her face!
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:34 am |
|
Now that I think of it more clearly, I do think she ended up with the Pah-Wraiths.
Yes, she did help Sisko against Dukat, but I do not think it was personal redemption or sorrow for the life she led. I think it was out of anger and revenge against Dukat's betrayal. I think the only reason she truly helped Sisko was for him to kill Dukat. Once more, she thought only of herself.
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:00 am |
|
I was recently thinking similar thoughts. For some reason, when she's saying
"Emissary! The book!"
In her eyes... IDK, I swear I see a darker means behind her words.
|
|
|
John Luck Pickard
Lieutenant
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Orange Co., NY
|
| Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:31 am |
|
Winn saw Sisko and knew that Sisko had the prophets behind him and would defeat Dukat. That's why she yelled to help him...she was merely choosing the winning side. I don't think that she knew she was going to die and was making an effort for redemption. If she knew she was gonna die, the kinda person she was, she probably would of just yelled out some expletives and cursed out everything.
-------signature-------
"Is there a John Luck Pickard here"?, -Q, Tapestry
|
|
|
JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
|
| Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:38 pm |
|
I personally didnt care much for any of the religiously important episodes of the show, nor for any of the aspects of it specific to Bajorans and their ways and prophets and devils or what-have-you.
Those aspects got a little too preachy for me and I dont generally care for religion mixed too deeply into my science fiction - I liked essentially every single other aspect and devleopment of character/plot throughout the rest of the series that didnt have anything to do with the Bajorans or their society being in the forefront of it - I sitill watched thos episodes, but FFWD through all those hokey parts to make sure I wasnt missing anything important to any other aspects of the show, and guess what? the series could have gotten along just fine without them, IMO
|
|
|
StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
|
| Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:06 pm |
|
Locked in with the Pah Wraiths. HAH!
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:29 pm |
|
| JupiterPrime wrote: | I personally didnt care much for any of the religiously important episodes of the show, nor for any of the aspects of it specific to Bajorans and their ways and prophets and devils or what-have-you.
Those aspects got a little too preachy for me and I dont generally care for religion mixed too deeply into my science fiction - I liked essentially every single other aspect and devleopment of character/plot throughout the rest of the series that didnt have anything to do with the Bajorans or their society being in the forefront of it - I sitill watched thos episodes, but FFWD through all those hokey parts to make sure I wasnt missing anything important to any other aspects of the show, and guess what? the series could have gotten along just fine without them, IMO |
I didn't ask if you liked religion or not.
I asked what was Kai Winn's fate in the final episode based off of her actions. Stay on topic.
|
|
|
neo_viral
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2668
Location: Deep Space South Africa
|
| Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:39 pm |
|
Founder : Im sorta curious about where you use the line "She disliked Sisko for being the Emissary, since he was a "non-believer".I Know in the beginning he was really sort of annoyed IIRC and not keen on all the belief in him and the bajoran religious duties and all,but do you think maybe it was also because he was the Emissary and also HUMAN that she felt that way about him ? Or do you mean it like one and the same there ?
I know that there were quite a few Bajorans who were anti-outsiders ("The circle" and to quote some slogan"Bajor for bajorans") So she seemed like one of those + always condescending and such,an old-know-it-all ? Yeah sure there were times i found her really annoying and felt like i wanted to strangle her (backstabbing,scheming,openly envious etc),BUT i also felt really sorry for her,seriously.I mean,come on,something had to happen wich MADE her that way ? No one`s just born like that.She seemed like,insecure.I mean,Imagine you serve these religious entities your whole life and not ONCE do they talk to you or show you a vision.Not even to admonish you.Yet they show it to "outsiders?".I guess that hurt her a lot and over time that sorta grew and made her more and more unpleasant.No One`s perfect.(Some just get a little mean in their imperfection imho).
(And yeah i agree Louise Fletcher is a really good actress)
For me i guess she just blinked out of existance because im not too clear on any Bajoran Afterlife.I Find it real interesting to see almost everyone voting that she`s in the fire caves with the Pah Wraiths like its some sort of punishment,cause we`re trying to imprint our own human ideas of heaven and hell on an alien religion ? Sorry,i dont see that as hell.Really.And i have trouble seeing them as pure evil,too.(you wanna see some evil,come & live in the country im living in for a while ;/).Its just two opposing forces,one more darker than the other,but in spite of what paramount or whoever might say,i wouldnt say Demonic imho.And i like to see it as the Millenium books part goes when Sisko is with the prophets "What is.What was.What will be".Ie Everyone have their own important role to play in life.Including people like Kai winn.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:05 pm |
|
| neo_viral wrote: | Founder : Im sorta curious about where you use the line "She disliked Sisko for being the Emissary, since he was a "non-believer".I Know in the beginning he was really sort of annoyed IIRC and not keen on all the belief in him and the bajoran religious duties and all,but do you think maybe it was also because he was the Emissary and also HUMAN that she felt that way about him ? Or do you mean it like one and the same there ?
I know that there were quite a few Bajorans who were anti-outsiders ("The circle" and to quote some slogan"Bajor for bajorans") So she seemed like one of those + always condescending and such,an old-know-it-all ? Yeah sure there were times i found her really annoying and felt like i wanted to strangle her (backstabbing,scheming,openly envious etc),BUT i also felt really sorry for her,seriously.I mean,come on,something had to happen wich MADE her that way ? No one`s just born like that.She seemed like,insecure.I mean,Imagine you serve these religious entities your whole life and not ONCE do they talk to you or show you a vision.Not even to admonish you.Yet they show it to "outsiders?".I guess that hurt her a lot and over time that sorta grew and made her more and more unpleasant.No One`s perfect.(Some just get a little mean in their imperfection imho).
(And yeah i agree Louise Fletcher is a really good actress)
For me i guess she just blinked out of existance because im not too clear on any Bajoran Afterlife.I Find it real interesting to see almost everyone voting that she`s in the fire caves with the Pah Wraiths like its some sort of punishment,cause we`re trying to imprint our own human ideas of heaven and hell on an alien religion ? Sorry,i dont see that as hell.Really.And i have trouble seeing them as pure evil,too.(you wanna see some evil,come & live in the country im living in for a while ;/).Its just two opposing forces,one more darker than the other,but in spite of what paramount or whoever might say,i wouldnt say Demonic imho.And i like to see it as the Millenium books part goes when Sisko is with the prophets "What is.What was.What will be".Ie Everyone have their own important role to play in life.Including people like Kai winn. |
First of all, that was a damn good post.
Second of all, Sisko was not only a non-Bajoran, but he also didn't believe in the Prophets or respected the role he was given(at first...). As you explained, Winn not only disliked him for that, but because he, a non believer was chosen to speak for the Prophets over her.
Your post made me question my knowledge and I went back to read about Kai Winns life in Memory Alpha. Apparently, she did have a deep belief of the Prophets. She was beaten during the Occupation for spreading the word about them. Then, she even paid off Cardassians for small acts of kindness to the Bajoran people.
I think she may have started off good, but later became ambitious and cared only for power. She's done a lot more evil then good. So, I do applaud you for your wonderful analysis of how she isn't a black and white evil person. The thing about her though, is while she may not be 100% evil, the bad things she did usually hurt people. So it is hard to pity her.
As for the after life, yes it is hard to say where one went. I did perhaps humanize it a bit by having the Celestial Temple=Heaven and the Fire Caves=Hell. But I do think it's hard to not call the Pah-Wraiths evil though. They want to destroy the Prophets, a rather semi-nice, if not naive species. They possessed Keiko's body and threatened to kill her if she was not obeyed. Dukat said they want to set the quadrant to flames. To me, that doesn't sound like misunderstood people...
This part of Memory Alpha gave me pause though....
| Quote: | | The restored Dukat killed Winn by engulfing her in flames when she attempted to give the Book to Captain Sisko, whom she finally aknowledged as the true Emmisary of the Prophets, in her final moments. |
Perhaps she didn't try to have Dukat killed out of revenge, but because she realized he did represent evil. As you said, perhaps she fulfilled the part the Prophets wanted her to play. After all, had she not been there, who would have told Benjamin to destroy the book?
|
|
|
neo_viral
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2668
Location: Deep Space South Africa
|
| Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:51 pm |
|
| Founder wrote: | and I went back to read about Kai Winns life in Memory Alpha. Apparently, she did have a deep belief of the Prophets. She was beaten during the Occupation for spreading the word about them. Then, she even paid off Cardassians for small acts of kindness to the Bajoran people.
I think she may have started off good, but later became ambitious and cared only for power. She's done a lot more evil then good. So, I do applaud you for your wonderful analysis of how she isn't a black and white evil person. The thing about her though, is while she may not be 100% evil, the bad things she did usually hurt people. So it is hard to pity her.
As for the after life, yes it is hard to say where one went. I did perhaps humanize it a bit by having the Celestial Temple=Heaven and the Fire Caves=Hell. But I do think it's hard to not call the Pah-Wraiths evil though. They want to destroy the Prophets, a rather semi-nice, if not naive species. They possessed Keiko's body and threatened to kill her if she was not obeyed. Dukat said they want to set the quadrant to flames. To me, that doesn't sound like misunderstood people...
This part of Memory Alpha gave me pause though....
| Quote: | | The restored Dukat killed Winn by engulfing her in flames when she attempted to give the Book to Captain Sisko, whom she finally aknowledged as the true Emmisary of the Prophets, in her final moments. |
Perhaps she didn't try to have Dukat killed out of revenge, but because she realized he did represent evil. As you said, perhaps she fulfilled the part the Prophets wanted her to play. After all, had she not been there, who would have told Benjamin to destroy the book? |
I sorta remotely remembered (my memory sucks)a bit about her being beaten too for spreading her beliefs but i was never sure wether it was canon (ever mentioned in an episode) or just fanfic/fanon.(Anyway,after what Paramount did,playing with the Franchise the way they did in creating Enterprise and the prequel movie,i vote for canon= w/e the hell we as fans WANT it to equal,so there) .Thx for clearing that up!
Yes she HAS hurt a lot of people,directly or through instigating others.I`d still like to see the person who has NOT hurt anyone else in their life though (ok its probably stupid of me to say this because no one`s done it on the scale of Kai Winn ) *shrugs* Its just my crazy point of view ,that i still sorta feel sorry for her *flees anti Kai Winn Lynch mob *
As for the Pah wraiths and Dukat being representations of evil...well....*shrugs again* Imho,yes,as you said,they did want to destroy the prophets,and went around posessing people to do their will,and threatened,and in the books the bringing together of their three orbs is supposed to cause the end of all creation.Ntm That the book,the Kosst Amojan can only be read once exposed to blood and such so all of that makes them seem like these purely destructive demonic forces.BUT their followers are for the MOST part of what one sees and reads passive,(members of the covenants)they talk about "Feel our love" (when last did demons we`re familiar with talk about LOVE ?) .
Isnt existance all about LIFE and DEATH and CREATION and DESTRUCTION anyway and that for each side there must be an opposite ? Why WERE they banished to the fire caves anyway ? Its never clear,the prophets inform people about that,but remember the saying that "History is written by the victors" ? As for Dukat being pure evil...i remember Sisko saying something like that at the end of Waltz,and i remember i didnt know wether to laugh or cry then.What i remembered of the guy was yeah sure,being majorly annoying at times that one`d want to strangle him (Like Kai winn) But i also remember episodes and earlier seasons like "Return to Grace".If he was so purely evil wouldnt he have shown it from the start,way more ? Yes i was furious at Jadzia`s death,but was it just me,or did he show some regret ? I guess that,from first wanting to use them as a tool of revenge and source of power,for one thing he did actually start to believe IN the Pah wraiths.Also i dont see evil,i see someone with some badass-ness combined with serious psychotic issues (After losing his daughter and stuff) Wich enhanced the scheming ,unpleasant side but..yeah.Pure Evil ? Nah.I guess i`ll stop rambling (and going off topic maybe,sorry! ) and just say and sum up how i feel,ie
Everyone had their role to play and i appreciate those roles no matter wich side
|
|
|
chaotica
Ensign
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 51
Location: Earth's Surface
|
| Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:58 pm |
|
We're accepting the Prophets in religious terms far too easily, maybe. They function as gods for the Bajorans but don't necessarily have heaven and hell and all the trappings we associate with gods.
I think Winn is probably doing the vacuuming in the Celestial Temple, or maybe they make her clean Sisko's celestial toilet without a brush. I can see her coming around with her janitorial pushcart and everything. "Emissary? I'm supposed to keep this place spotless and white! Got anything to clean that you don't want to touch with your sacred hands?"
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Star Trek �, in all its various forms, are trademarks & copyrights of Paramount Pictures
This site has no official connection with Star Trek or Paramount Pictures
Site content/Site design elements owned by Morphy and is meant to only be an archive/Tribute to STV.com
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
