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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
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Location: New York
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 Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:17 pm Bush: Without my plan, detainee questioning won't continue |
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| CNN wrote: | | WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Questioning of suspected terrorists "won't go forward" unless Congress clarifies a U.S. standard for the treatment and interrogation of detainees, President Bush warned on Friday. |
Source (CNN): http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/09/15/bush/index.html
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:38 pm |
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And let's hope Congress does the right thing.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:38 pm |
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Yeah. By setting the standards, as the same ones in the Geneva convention.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:38 pm |
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No. By doing as President Bush has asked them to.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:40 pm |
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So you want Congress to obey the president's whim?
I sense a debate...
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:54 pm |
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No. What the president is asking is what we need, and I hope the Congress will do as he asks on this issue.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:34 pm |
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So, you approve of torture. RM, the fact that we don't torture prisoners, is a big part of what set's us apart from who we are fighting. We don't want to stoop to the level.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:41 pm |
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Don't put words into my mouth. I do not support torture, and nor does the president--and this is not torture. You know it, I know it, Congress knows it, and, most of all, the terrorists know it. What it is is putting a terrorist in a prison cell and blaring Red Hot Chilli Peppers music. (I refer you to Bill O'Reilly's latest column for more info.)
America does not practice torture and the United States government does not endorse torture, not even close. All it is is support for cohorse interrogation, nothing more. There are some mild cases of abuse and maybe even torture, but those are rare and dealt with properly in the end.
The US, I reiterate once again, does not practice torture, and the president and his proposal are not endorsing torture in any way.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:43 pm |
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Oh, of course they don't. They're Amnesty International, the far-left "let's bash the Western world for everything" organization. As far as I'm concerned, they and Human Rights Watch have as much credibility as an 8-year-old. They complain about everything the US does but almost never about Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Iraq (in the past), and so forth.
They disagree with virtually every terrorist interrogation method that the US might take on, no matter what it is.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Seven of Nine
Sammie's Mammy
Joined: 16 Jun 2001
Posts: 7871
Location: North East England
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:23 pm |
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Only the ones that break international law.
If that happens to be most of them, then there's something wrong with the way the USA is operating.
BTW: You sure about them not complaining about Iran etc.?
Iran
North Korea
Cuba
Iraq
I know there isn't any recent information on North Korea, but it's a little hard to get information on a country that's pretty much cut off from the rest of the world.
China is one of the most criticised countries by AI. I didn't realise they were considered Western.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:32 pm |
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What I mean is, you don't see Amnesty International out there actively criticizing those countries in the media, etc. You see them bashing the United States, which does not violate international laws.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:25 pm |
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Ok...RM, one thing. We expect North Korea, Iran, Cuba, etc, to torture, and be brutal to Prisoners. It is not expected that the US will do it. Which is why, whenever we do, they argue actively against it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:55 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | Ok...RM, one thing. We expect North Korea, Iran, Cuba, etc, to torture, and be brutal to Prisoners. It is not expected that the US will do it. Which is why, whenever we do, they argue actively against it. |
But we don't, so it's a moot point. They always overexagerrate little things when it's the US or another Western country. It is irrelivant whether or not it is "expected" of them to torture.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:33 pm |
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So, what are these, non-tortuous interrogation procedures.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:45 pm |
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Basically mind torture. But hey, it's better than physical! Or so they want you to believe.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:57 pm |
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Putting them into cold rooms and blaring Red Hot Chilli Peppers, like they did that guy that gave up Khalid Sheik Muhammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attack. No joke. Read O'Reilly's latest column I posted.
The US doesn't torture, neither mentally nor physically. There is a difference between cohersive interrogation techniques to save lives and torture. And I'm not talking Abu Graihb here. That wasn't torture, but it was beyond the pale abuse that doesn't fit in which typically US cohersive measures.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:39 pm |
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RM, I doubt that thats all they do.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:43 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | RM, I doubt that thats all they do. |
Oh, of course they do more, but that's about as bad as it gets. Unless you're going to go on the record and accuse our country of torture, which they clearly aren't doing? Nothing's going to satisfy you people but name, rank, and Jihad number in interrogations.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:48 pm |
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Do you have any idea how a good interrogator can get so much out of a suspect, by just talking to him?
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At Least In Vietnam, Bush Had An Exit Strategy
It was Bush, not Clinton, who ignored the warning signs for 9/11.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:54 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | Do you have any idea how a good interrogator can get so much out of a suspect, by just talking to him? |
Yeah, it's called a little when you have a prisoner who hates you with a passion and is committed to kill you and your family in the name of his God and Jihad. Talking is all fine and dandy, but you need to break them first.
The other day I was watching the O'Reilly Factor and this one military guy was talking about interrogation methods and how indeed you can get information from having a chat, but you have to "break him" first and make him want to spill out information during the chat, not insinuating, though, that torture is by any stretch the way to go.
But there is no way that you can simply talk with this people. You can't just sit down with them in a dark room with a light over the table and ask them questions to try to get their name, rank, and Jihad number, where they were on July 28th, and so forth. That may work, with shouting included, in the criminal justice system, but it doesn't work with people who hate you with an incredible passion and want to see you, your family, and your country wiped off the map, no matter how liberal or conservative you are, or if you support the president.
So, then, if you think talking to these people, and only doing that, does work, you're the interrogator. You have a guy named Akmed, and you're assigned to interrogate him and find out what information he knows. He was caught on the battlefield in Afghanistan and brought to Gitmo, and you work at Gitmo.
So, interrogator WeAz, what do you do?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:05 pm |
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I talk. And Talk. And continue that. I try to coerce him, talk to him about his religion, how he's not following it. I might play Heavy Metal...but I won't...
- Dunk his head in water
- Deny him food
- Electroshock Therapy
- Sensory Deprivation
- Physical Beating
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:13 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | I talk. And Talk. And continue that. I try to coerce him, talk to him about his religion, how he's not following it. I might play Heavy Metal |
That's not enough. That's little more than puppying him. Akmed will express his hatred for you, how America will fall, how Allah is superior to your God (he's assuming, of course, that you're Christian), and this and that. Playing a little bit of Heavy Metal, while torterous to me, won't break him, and talking won't do enough.
| Quote: | ...but I won't...
- Dunk his head in water
- Deny him food
- Electroshock Therapy
- Sensory Deprivation
- Physical Beating |
1. Dunk his head in water. I assume you mean more along the lines of waterboarding? That was done a few times in the past, but it's been explicitly forbidden at this point.
2. Denial of food for a certain amount of time is not only not torture, but it is a perfectly wise tactic. Or give limited food and promise that if he spills information he will get a greater meal. But of course limited food and denial of food are only with a total lack of cooperation. Most prisoners at Gitmo get full meals, for instance.
3. Unsure about that.
4. What do you mean?
5. I concur wholeheartedly.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:35 pm |
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Sensory Deprivition is:
-Restrained
-In a sound-proof room
-Gagged
Basically, you can sense almost nothing.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:59 pm |
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Okay, I think I'm pretty much against that. Sounds like torture to me.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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