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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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 Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:10 pm Pope sparks fury with quote on Islam |
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| Quote: | Pope sparks fury with quote on Islam
Angry protests against Pope Benedict XVI erupted in the Islamic world today as the Vatican struggled to explain a reference by the Pontiff to the Prophet Mohammad�s �evil and inhuman� contribution to religion.
The Vatican has tried to defend the Pope after comments he made about Islam and jihad prompted anger in the Muslim world.
Read More: The Daily Telegraph |
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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:39 pm |
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Great news for West-Arab relations 
I hope he retracts the statement.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:00 pm |
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Jesus...what an idiot. I will respect the Church and position of the Pope, but what he said is ridiculus and is only strengthening the belief that Catholics and Muslims can't unite.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:52 pm |
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Link
| Quote: | | Pakistan's legislature unanimously condemned Pope Benedict XVI. Lebanon's top Shiite cleric demanded an apology. And in Turkey, the ruling party likened the pontiff to Hitler and Mussolini and accused him of reviving the mentality of the Crusades. |
Great...this is getting worse and worse.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:53 pm |
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I was quite surprised when I heard about these comments, to be honest, and quite shocked. I'm glad that the Vatican is at last taking a hard-line stance on Islamo-fascism, but this is a bit too extreme indeed. I'm not gonna brand the Pope an "idiot," though I typically find myself in defined disagreement with the Vatican on almost every issue that isn't social, because I don't think he is one, but this is definitely going to hurt relations between Islam and Catholocism and shine negative light on the faith, and that's not good.
Not the best of moves by the Pontiff.
For more info on the Pope's speech and actions, http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1534640-1,00.html
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:37 pm |
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Why did he do this...does he have mental issues?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:20 pm |
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Things are often said by world leaders that appear sick or outlandish to us. I doubt that everybody who says something you and I may disagree with has "mental issues."
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:21 pm |
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I doubt it as well. It wasn't a smart thing to say in the least, and I disagree with what he said, overall, but he did have context to his statements.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:12 am |
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There was nothing really wrong with his speech. The Pope is basically preaching against what half of the forums is saying is bad in the other topic in WN we are discussing religion in.
A short excerpt that summarizes it is:
| Quote: | Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death..."....
At this point, as far as understanding of God and thus the concrete practice of religion is concerned, we are faced with an unavoidable dilemma. Is the conviction that acting unreasonably contradicts God's nature merely a Greek idea, or is it always and intrinsically true? I believe that here we can see the profound harmony between what is Greek in the best sense of the word and the biblical understanding of faith in God. Modifying the first verse of the Book of Genesis, the first verse of the whole Bible, John began the prologue of his Gospel with the words: "In the beginning was the "logos". This is the very word used by the emperor: God acts, with logos. Logos means both reason and word - a reason which is creative and capable of self-communication, precisely as reason. |
ENTIRE SPEECH
There really was nothing wrong with it. Basically it just says that forcing people to convert through jihad and holy war is false not what God wants. Sure it may not make the Muslims happy, or it may not be PC the way he said it, but I don't find anything wrong with it.
And if Muslims want dialogue, then fine. Dialogue doesn't mean just saying we agree on this and ignoring the rest though. Dialogue is discussing what we find true, and what we find false in each other.
Last edited by Puck on Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:14 am |
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Thank you for the link and clarification. I'm inclined to agree with you with it put into complete context. It's not necessarily the right thing to say, but there's not much wrong with it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:15 am |
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| Quote: | | He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached'. |
Let's use entire quotes. I'd say it's a fairly accurate statement, and would defend it.
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Dirt
Exercise Boy
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 2086
Location: a tree
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:39 am |
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Hm, this is what you get when you put Germans and back-in-the-day hitler jugend in powerful positions!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:38 pm |
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| Dirt wrote: | | Hm, this is what you get when you put Germans and back-in-the-day hitler jugend in powerful positions! |
So now the leader of the Catholic church is Hitler? First my dad, and then the Pope? Who's next? Sean Hannity?
Anyways, this is no Hitler, not even close. You can talk about all his past with the Nazis, but the fact is, he had to participate in that. He had no choice. And these comments don't make him any more like Hitler. If anyone's like Hitler, it's the Islamo-Fascists he was primarily talking about.
Anyways, so the Pope has expressed his regret over his comments, which have spilled violent uproars, and yet despite these protests and uproars the pontiff has not apologized and I think shouldn't be expected to do so. What he needs to do is get out there and explain his statements--what he really meant--to clarify them and quell the situation.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:07 pm |
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Looks like Muslim community is dead-set on proving the Pope right... He claims that their religion preaches violence, so what do they do? Burn down churches. Attack Christian institutions. Committ acts of violence.
And Dirt, your comments were WAY out of line.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:15 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | Looks like Muslim community is dead-set on proving the Pope right... He claims that their religion preaches violence, so what do they do? Burn down churches. Attack Christian institutions. Committ acts of violence.
And Dirt, your comments were WAY out of line. |
Well, the Pope didn't say that. He merely read a quote from that Byzantine emperor, not stating his perspective or anything, from what I understand of it.
But that is interesting, isn't it, how the Pontiff read a quote about Islam being a religion dealing in violence or something, and much of the response to it is, in fact, violence? They are indeed proving the point (not that I believe that Islam is a religion of violence).
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Dirt
Exercise Boy
Joined: 19 May 2003
Posts: 2086
Location: a tree
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:05 pm |
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Pft, I said your dad was hitler. The pope was with the hitler JUGEND, you gots to read homeboy! Obviously you can't have two of them, as I'm not too fond of cloning. Besides this is an actual fact and not something I made up!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html
There's a link in between here but it won't show up because of the color!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:10 pm |
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Again, as I said before, his ties with the Nazis were because he had to do it, not because he willfully wanted to. You need to get your facts straight.
And what you said is tantamount to calling him Hitler. It doesn't matter if you can only have "one Hitler"--you've basically called at least two people that aren't Hitler Hitler. Poor taste and way out of line, once again.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:25 pm |
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You cant blame the pope for what he said. A lot of negative things have come out of Islam thanks to the Radicalist. Someone has got to step up and say its time to "tell the truth" about someones beliefs.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:28 pm |
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| Dirt wrote: | Pft, I said your dad was hitler. The pope was with the hitler JUGEND, you gots to read homeboy! Obviously you can't have two of them, as I'm not too fond of cloning. Besides this is an actual fact and not something I made up!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html
There's a link in between here but it won't show up because of the color! |
I know it's a fact, but you know darned well what you were implying with your statement.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:39 pm |
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Yeah, Dirt. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't like the leader of my faith being called or implied to be a "Nazi." It's just sick and wrong.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:47 pm |
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I just came back from Mass and instead of giving a Homilie today, Father presented a Sermon on the Pope's comments, and from what he was telling us, if, as I touched on before, you put what he was saying into context (including the audience in from of which he was speaking), not only was what he was saying okay and not unreasonable, but it was right. I jumped the gun too soon on this, and I regret that. He was not condemning or attacking Islam in the least. The Sermon made it quite clear today, and reading parts of the speech myself I can see that as being so.
I intend on following through with Father's request to pray for the safety and longevity of the Pope, with all the threats made against his life. How easy rational comments can be taken out of context.
In news, though, the Pope has said he is "deeply sorry" for the reaction to his speech. I'm not so sure how warranted this is, but it should ease tensions. Unfortunately it seems to have been lost in the times, for the uproar continues.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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harrykims#1fan
Fan Girl Muskateer
Joined: 08 Feb 2002
Posts: 2916
Location: Leicester UK
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:52 pm |
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isnt the pope entitled to an opinion after all just because he holds a position of power doesnt mean he's not an ordinary individualwho's entitled to say what he likes
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:13 pm |
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| Quote: | Orthodox Church Archbishop attacks 'Islamic fanatism'
Johannesburg (AND) In yet another furore to grip the Christian community, the head of the Orthodox Church of Greece has joined the Pope controversy by attacking what he calls Islamic fanaticism in Africa. |
http://www.andnetwork.com/index?service=direct/0/Home/top.fullStory&sp=l51985
Apparently Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood had issued a statement accepting the Pope's apology that Muslims were offended, but then they retracted that and said he needed to further apologize. All of this violence though merely seems to be proving that what the Pope quoted in his speech is indeed true for much of the Islamic world.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:34 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | | Quote: | Orthodox Church Archbishop attacks 'Islamic fanatism'
Johannesburg (AND) In yet another furore to grip the Christian community, the head of the Orthodox Church of Greece has joined the Pope controversy by attacking what he calls Islamic fanaticism in Africa. |
http://www.andnetwork.com/index?service=direct/0/Home/top.fullStory&sp=l51985
Apparently Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood had issued a statement accepting the Pope's apology that Muslims were offended, but then they retracted that and said he needed to further apologize. All of this violence though merely seems to be proving that what the Pope quoted in his speech is indeed true for much of the Islamic world. |
What, would they like him to read an apology written by them? Puh-leeze. They're using it as an excuse, something to push their agenda, nothing more. He didn't even say anything wrong.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:03 am |
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I find it ironic how the Islamic extremists are destroying non-Catholic Christian churches. It both shows their abyssmal ignorance and proves the Pope's point.
On the flip side, the Catholic Church has used the sword to spread their faith as well, so this is "the pot calling the kettle black".
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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