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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:41 pm Conservatives say religion under attack |
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| Quote: | | Religious conservative leaders, sensing declining alarm over same-sex marriage, are warning that the debate over homosexuality has prompted attacks on religious freedom. |
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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:55 pm |
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Man do they like to over exaggerate things. Religion isn't under attack.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:34 pm |
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These new laws though are prompting an attack on religion. While not as bad in America, it is a growing problem in Canada and Europe. A Canadian Bishop last year was investigated by the Alberta Human Rights Commission after making a remark against same-sex unions. In Sweden, something similar happened to a Pentecostal pastor. While both of these people were eventually acquited, many experts see a time in the future when a pastor charged with hate speech, or something of the such will not be as lucky. Stephen Green was arrested, and right now is facing trial over handing out pamphelts to people arriving at a Mardi Gras event entitled, "Same-sex love, same-sex sex: What does the Bible say?" So, to think that the debate on homosexuality (as well as other things) has not prompted attacks on religion is dead wrong.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:24 pm |
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Homosexuality issues alone aren't attacking religion, but there is a war on faith in this country waged by the Secularist-Progressives and the farther-left, no doubt about it.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:29 pm |
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It's prompted attacks over religious intolerance...
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:41 pm |
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Using words that are popular with liberal relativists...ahem:
It's prompted intolerant attacks that attack my freedom of speech and attack my freedom of choice and attack my way of life.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:42 pm |
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And yet the intolerance of so many on the left attacks my, freedom of worship (Source: First Amendment, Free Exersize Clause).
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:44 pm |
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I think together, we have spotted the flaw of liberal, and relativist ideology  .
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:01 pm |
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If we're talking about reason why religion is under attack, it falls to two things; Religious intolerance and extremists on all sides.
And RM, everyone is intolerant in some way. It's not just us liberals whom you, and a few others here, love to generalize about.
If you want to go into things people are intolerant of, The Far right is intolerant about my quest for Knowledge through science.
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." President Thomas Jefferson
"A man's respect for law and order exists in precise relationship to the size of his paycheck." Adam Clayton Powell Jr.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:08 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | If we're talking about reason why religion is under attack, it falls to two things; Religious intolerance and extremists on all sides.
This is intolerance of any kind. Athiests can be quite intolerant from what I've seen.
And RM, everyone is intolerant in some way. It's not just us liberals whom you, and a few others here, love to generalize about.
Yes..EVERYONE is.
If you want to go into things people are intolerant of, The Far right is intolerant about my quest for Knowledge through science. |
What? I'm far right and I don't care about your "quest".
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:11 pm |
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Not at all is the far-right trying to stand in the way of your quest for knowledge through science. Not in the least. I don't know where you get that. I, for one, am not doing such a thing.
And I haven't really generalized about anyone here for some time now. For instance, in this topic I said:
| Quote: | | Homosexuality issues alone aren't attacking religion, but there is a war on faith in this country waged by the Secularist-Progressives and the farther-left, no doubt about it. |
The attack is being waged by Secularist-Progressives. That's no generalization, because it's fact. I also used the words "farther left" because it's not the left as a whole--it's elements on the farther left.
| Quote: | | so many on the left |
Another phrase I used in my last post. No generalization of the left there, just a fact about it being many on the left.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:35 pm |
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There is a general feeling of intolerance from religion. Heck, I was on that side, I know it personally. Now I'm on the other side, and I can feel the anger and the distaste for how I live my life, even from my parents, and I do nothing wrong. At least, nothing hurtful to me, and nothing hurtful to other people, if I can help it. I think that's the best anyone can be expected to do. It's a very unpleasant feeling, to be secretly feared or hated by a large number of people, and have to remain silent on some subjects because of what they might do to try and destroy who I am. I don't hate religion... people are free to it, I have my own "religious" (more "philosophical") beliefs. Doesn't mean I have to agree, or like it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:38 pm |
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It's not lack of faith of subscription to beliefs that most Christian Conservatives dislike, though. Or is that not what you're saying?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:45 pm |
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Oh, yes, it is. What am I but a collection of my moral beliefs? Such beliefs that make conservative christians--and many other religions--very uncomfortable, even spiteful, in some cases. In a family, an extreme outlook on conformity to Christian beliefs is not just unkind, it's painful, and in my opinion, it's wrong. These aren't isolated cases, either. By trying to convert people--especially people like me--religions do their own beliefs a disservice. And I take it as an offense.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:48 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | There is a general feeling of intolerance from religion. Heck, I was on that side, I know it personally. Now I'm on the other side, and I can feel the anger and the distaste for how I live my life, even from my parents, and I do nothing wrong. At least, nothing hurtful to me, and nothing hurtful to other people, if I can help it. I think that's the best anyone can be expected to do. It's a very unpleasant feeling, to be secretly feared or hated by a large number of people, and have to remain silent on some subjects because of what they might do to try and destroy who I am. I don't hate religion... people are free to it, I have my own "religious" (more "philosophical") beliefs. Doesn't mean I have to agree, or like it. |
That's not really fair to say. Intolerance is not a religious thing.
This notion that non-religious people can do no wrong is ridiculous(I'm not saying that you said it.  I'm just commenting on it.) I won't even state how many people died because of athiesm and "science", and a great many did. Does that mean Religion is better? No. It proves that intolerane is a HUMAN thing, not religious. We have to find it in ourselves to improve that about ourselves. Hacking away at people's spiritual beliefs won't change intolerance.
That is like us operating on a person who has a bullet wound in his leg. The bullet wound is the pain and "intolerance". While I'm saying, lets pull the bullet out, heal the wound(lets focus on Religion and try to fix what it's doing wrong), (some, hardcore) atheists are saying "Take the leg."(get rid of religion all together). In the medical world, that would not be a GOOD thing to do would it?
As for your situtation, there are many self proclaimed Christians, who are NOT Christians. If they fear or hate your way of life, well guess what? They aren't true Christians.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:55 pm |
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Intolerance isn't a religious thing, that's correct. I didn't say it was. I said there's a general feeling of intolerance--that's a perceived message, not the intended one. I have "religious" beliefs, I mentioned that, and they are very tolerant. And there are very tolerant Christians! Thank goodness. There are a lot of very intolerant ones, too, who use religion to back them up. Whether rightly or not. Like I said, I don't care what your beliefs are, more power to you, and at least you have beliefs. It only crosses a line when beliefs are forced upon me, or I am attacked. It happens. And, by the way, I find very few true Christians, but those who are I like very much. I consider myself a true Christian, but most people would probably say I'm not a Christian at all. That's not my problem. 
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:58 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | Intolerance isn't a religious thing, that's correct. I have "religious" beliefs, I mentioned that, and they are very tolerant. And there are very tolerant Christians! Thank goodness. There are a lot of very intolerant ones, too, who use religion to back them up. Whether rightly or not. Like I said, I don't care what your beliefs are, more power to you, and at least you have beliefs. It only crosses a line when beliefs are forced upon me, or I am attacked. It happens. And, by the way, I find very few true Christians, but those who are I like very much. I consider myself a true Christian, but most people would probably say I'm not a Christian at all. That's not my problem. |
Exactly. If someone "forces it on you", not to be too vulgar but you tell them to...."something off". It's as simple as that. Not to mention, the looks on their faces are priceless.
Just because these "Christians" use religion to back them up, that doesn't mean they're right. They certainly aren't following Jesus' beliefs.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:59 pm |
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| Arellia wrote: | | At least, nothing hurtful to me, and nothing hurtful to other people, if I can help it. I think that's the best anyone can be expected to do. |
This relativist thinking is exactly the problem. You can't just tell people that there is no true absolute in this world, but to just do their best to be good. That doesn't work. There is an absolute truth that will only be found in God. For those who have come to recognize it, we cannot sit aside and condone behavior that goes against this truth. The behavior will by virtue of itself cause more pain to the individual and society than would be if it was not acted on. Condoning what is wrong to make life "easy" is a disservice to everyone, whether they see it this way or not is another matter. We are responsible for ourselves, and our brothers, and if we see them failing, we cannot stand idly by while they continue towards a path that leads to death.
Now, it is fair indeed to say that many religious approach this matter wrong, or in a hateful way. They too need to be corrected. Whenever someone is not shown dignity, or is treated with hate or malice, that itself is impure religion. While the ends they wish to achieve may be fine, the means by which they go to achieve it may not be. One must remember in these cases, that you cannot justify the means by the end to which they are meant to achieve. It is important to always remember that every single person must be treated with their God-given dignity and must receive justice to the best that we can offer.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:05 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | | Arellia wrote: | | At least, nothing hurtful to me, and nothing hurtful to other people, if I can help it. I think that's the best anyone can be expected to do. |
This relativist thinking is exactly the problem. You can't just tell people that there is no true absolute in this world, but to just do their best to be good. That doesn't work. There is an absolute truth that will only be found in God. For those who have come to recognize it, we cannot sit aside and condone behavior that goes against this truth. The behavior will by virtue of itself cause more pain to the individual and society than would be if it was not acted on. Condoning what is wrong to make life "easy" is a disservice to everyone, whether they see it this way or not is another matter. We are responsible for ourselves, and our brothers, and if we see them failing, we cannot stand idly by while they continue towards a path that leads to death. |
You found your truth. I've found mine. I see everything under the light of relativism, and I mean everything. I believe some things are wrong, and I will act accordingly. That's not what you perceive to be "wrong," so it is not wrong to you. Choices, choices, always choices, what I do, and how you respond. If I'm travelling a "path to death," then thank you for trying to help me, but if my path leads to death, then God's not worth loving. And I think He is, and He hasn't any trouble with me. Of course, I have a very extended belief on right, wrong, and how it effect eternity. That would be too long to explain. My statement stands. I had 15 years of being advised one way, and I made my own choices, taking what I truly believed and discarding what I didn't. I've had the class in the path to the light, and I found my own path. Why not leave it at that, in any sane adult's case?
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:12 pm |
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Figuring that same-sex marriage doesn't have to have anything to do with religion, I don't quite see how this matters. Marriage is a state institution, whether anybody likes it or not. If you get married in the church yet don't get a marriage license (from the state) are you legally married? Not really.
Last edited by IntrepidIsMe on Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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-Wuthering Heights
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:23 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | | Arellia wrote: | | At least, nothing hurtful to me, and nothing hurtful to other people, if I can help it. I think that's the best anyone can be expected to do. |
This relativist thinking is exactly the problem. You can't just tell people that there is no true absolute in this world, but to just do their best to be good. That doesn't work. There is an absolute truth that will only be found in God. For those who have come to recognize it, we cannot sit aside and condone behavior that goes against this truth. The behavior will by virtue of itself cause more pain to the individual and society than would be if it was not acted on. Condoning what is wrong to make life "easy" is a disservice to everyone, whether they see it this way or not is another matter. We are responsible for ourselves, and our brothers, and if we see them failing, we cannot stand idly by while they continue towards a path that leads to death. |
That's the kind of attitude that sparks many of the atheists to make comments in the first place, in my opinion. This is that intolerance to simply just accept it. There is a lot of intolerance in the religious community. I'll use some fairly extreme (and less common) cases to get my point across. Religious terrorists kidnapping people and forcing them to convert? Killing people for being corrupt and impure by their own beliefs? etc, etc. Less common (more prevalent in the news) but it still is there.
That's not to say there isn't intolerance in the atheist community, either. I know many people who try to force science on religious people. It goes both ways. Although, I don't carry a ceremonial testtube that can only be replaced in it's holder if I fill it with a blood sample, nor do I bypass dress-codes with my lab-coat, pocket protector, and oft deshelved hair, .
I have some friends who are deeply religious, some who are moderate, and others who are atheist. I treat them all the same. You want to believe something, go right ahead. That's your right and I won't try to stop you, nor will I try to force what I believe on someone. I will, however, defend my own stance from someone who is attacking it. I don't laugh at anyone wearing religious garb, nor do I care (except in the instance where someone doesn't have to wear the traditional RCMP uniform because of a head dress. That's the uniform; you knew that when you applied. Wear it).
How do you know God is the absolute truth? You have no factual evidence to back it up. That's why it's called faith. It's your own personal belief. Gallivanting around trying to spread your "absolute truth" to those who have their own beliefs in what's true or false is the real disservice to society, (see Crusades, or simply 1 currently disgruntled Canadian).
Once again, what's to say that the bible is the truth? Afterall, it's just a book that was written a long time ago. How do we know the people who wrote it weren't just completely off their rocker? How is the book, the bible, any more credible than L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology, which comes from his fictional novel? Apparently not much, as he's got quite a following, now!
What is wrong with simply accepting the fact that some people have different beliefs and letting them go about their own lives. Afterall, that's what it is; their own life. If I want to burn in a fiery abysse for all eternity, then that's my (apparent) God-given right.
Now, there could very well be absolute truths in the world; and IMO science has just yet to figure them out! Eventually our brains will evolve, if you will, and our ability to comprehend shall expand. Science may one day provide a good, solid theory with proof that God exists. Will I believe in him then? I might with the presentation of a strong enough argument.
So, why is it many people feel the need to rag on the homosexuals due to religion? It's against the bible, sure, but that's not what they believe, so leave them alone to go about their lives in the manner they see fit, be it religiously ignorant or not. They're servicing each other quite well enough, I'd assume, (oh no! A subtle funny!). They aren't hurting anyone, are they? You don't find gay groups running the streets beating on religious people, do you? Most of them aren't even attacking religion; they just want to marry and be accepted. What happened to God's "Love the sinner, hate the sin"? There are a lot of things that are legal that are sins, is there not? Mainly in the sexual aspect, I think, but legal and a sin. You don't go around saying "Ban X-rated film stars from marrying!"
So if you want to do a service to society, then stop trying service us and let us go about our lives as we please.
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Jeff Miller
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:47 pm |
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It's about time. Religon can't keep bullying their way without expecting some kind of backlash. Glad to see people aren't taking anymore.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:56 pm |
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| Jeff Miller wrote: | | It's about time. Religon can't keep bullying their way without expecting some kind of backlash. Glad to see people aren't taking anymore. |
I see it the other way. I want Christians to "take up arms," so to speak, and win the secular war. We've been far too submissive for too long, and it's about time we stand up and fight back for America's history, culture, and tradition.
That's my belief, at least. I see this war at its culmination during the Christmas season, when religion is attacked relentlessly across the country. There is a war on religion--particularly Christianity--in this country, and we're losing it to the Secular-Progressives.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:02 pm |
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Addressing the main issue which seem to appear in two posts, the issue of "Why can't you just let people go live there own lives?" (Basically)
In truth, I can, but only after I have done as much as I think could be helpful in at least trying to reveal that God is truth. I cannot force someone to realize that, and I should not even do so. God gave everyone free will. Free will has its consequences though, depending on how we use it. This is why He also gave us each other though to help one another. I can only speak for myself, but I only speak as much as I think it could be helpful, because too much speaking can just turn people away from God. After that though, I continue to pray for people. Also, I made very clear that religious people can go very wrong in their attempts to lead people to God, as you clearly realize.
It is your right to turn away from God, and I was assuming that I had made it clear that forcing people to love God was wrong.
This being said, I (and I may or may not be speaking for others) cannot condone behavior that I know is wrong. You may not think that it hurts others, but it does, and it hurts the people who participate in it. I will not condone sin. It is not just homosexuality, though it may appear that way because that is a frequent topic of discussion. I wouldn't condone pornography, sex before marriage, or birth control either. You may think I just ignorantly rag on either people about these things, but believe me, I have to live with them too. No one said it would be easy or pleasant all the time, but just the opposite.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:51 am |
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By this, you mean you would see fit to outlaw sex before marriage? And you seriously don't support birth control? ...that really scares me.
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