| A waste of space? |
| Yes |
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[ 14 ] |
| No |
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[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 28 |
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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 Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:45 am |
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Dear teya your post above only confirms what I've stated before, that Kes is criticized for being Kes and not so much more. I must admit that I find it a bit strange that Kes s criticized for being some sort of superbeing, unaffected by everything, which she wasn't while her replacement, whose abilities to fix everything on the ship, from the warp engines to Janeway's malfunctioning hairdryer and whose alien knowledge saved the ship and some crewmembers from every possible danger including death itself is hailed as the best thing that ever happened to Star Trek. Talk about contradictions.
Your examples doesn't support TIIC:s stances. Not even TIIC:s most stupid propaganda fairy tales have stated that Kes was dumped because of being too perfect. According to TIIC, Kes was dumped "because they couldn't come up with stories about her", a statement which is contradicted by the fact that skilled writers such as Greg Cox and Christie Golden and even Jeri Taylor herself had no problems to come up with good Kes stories before and after she was dumped.
And simply quoting another post, adding some cheering is hardly constructive. It's not the first time it happens here.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:07 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Dear teya your post above only confirms what I've stated before, that Kes is criticized for being Kes and not so much more. |
No, Lynx, whether you want to admit it or not, I have given examples of how the character was written into a corner. I have backed up my opinion with examples.
You don't like 'em? Don't shoot the messenger. Come up with something to refute my points--give me examples where she misjudged, and how she grew as a result. Don't just whine that I'm a Kes Basher.
| Quote: | | I must admit that I find it a bit strange that Kes s criticized for being some sort of superbeing, unaffected by everything, which she wasn't while her replacement, whose abilities to fix everything on the ship, from the warp engines to Janeway's malfunctioning hairdryer and whose alien knowledge saved the ship and some crewmembers from every possible danger including death itself is hailed as the best thing that ever happened to Star Trek. Talk about contradictions. |
Well, by your own admission you've seen seasons 4 & 5 once. And you stopped watching altogether after "Fury."
Since you haven't explored that character, it doesn't surprise me that you repeat things that you can't prove--and are grossly exaggerated and fabricated.
As I said earlier, yes, they went for Seven providing the technobabble solution a bit too much. But it was far less than you make it out to be.
And Seven was far from a perfect character. Again, she was rude, stubborn, clueless, and a perfectionist. And she made mistakes, even well-intentioned mistakes.
| Quote: | | Your examples doesn't support TIIC:s stances. Not even TIIC:s most stupid propaganda fairy tales have stated that Kes was dumped because of being too perfect. According to TIIC, Kes was dumped "because they couldn't come up with stories about her", a statement which is contradicted by the fact that skilled writers such as Greg Cox and Christie Golden and even Jeri Taylor herself had no problems to come up with good Kes stories before and after she was dumped. |
Well, I've just outlined why I *don't* think those stories were good. Because  she was either a victim or always knew best.
They couldn't find compelling stories for her--stories in which her actions had consequences--because they'd written her into a corner. Her character was too nice, too sweet, too wise, too perfect--and thus, was incapable of growth.
That's a creative dead end. As the writers said.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:54 pm |
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Honestly, it's your criticizm of Kes which is exaggerated and fabricated.
All of a sudden, it's about how many flaws the character got. With that logic, the Bundy family must be the best posible characters ever because they have all possible flaws and somehow they learn from them (they learn that they are constant losers if nothing else).
You didn't like Kes and found her boring, that doesn't mean that she was boring or difficult to write for. And once again, the reasons you have mentioned here in this thread has never been stated as the reasons for getting rid of Kes. In fact, TIIC have never given us a reason for why Kes was dumped, only vague and lame excuses, such as "we couldn't come up with good stories for the character" which is not the truth, they did actually come up with some really good stories for the character in season 3.
Kes impossible to write for? Watch the episodes "Cold Fire", "Persistence Of Vision", "Warlord", "Before And After", "The Swarm", "Darkling", "Resolutions", "Caretaker", "Jetrel", "The Cloud", "Scorpion#1", Learning Curve" or read "The Black Shore", "Marooned", "Her Klingon Soul", "Mosaic" and "Chrysalis" where Kes is the main character or plays an important role.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:09 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Honestly, it's your criticizm of Kes which is exaggerated and fabricated. |
Yanno what, Lynx? This conversation ends right now. I've given you the benefit of the doubt. I've been nice and stuck to the arguments. I thought I made my arguments intelligently and calmly.
And what do I get in return from you? You tell people not to support my posts.
Then you turn around and tell me that I'm "fabricating" criticism. Since everything I cited comes from within the episodes themselves, I don't see how I made it up, but hey... whatever. I guess it's easier to call me a liar than to come up with solid arguments to the contrary.
| Quote: | | You didn't like Kes and found her boring, that doesn't mean that she was boring or difficult to write for. |
Lynx, the *writers*--the people who created the character--said that she was difficult to write for and that they'd run out of inspiration.
Yet, *I'm* fabricating criticism. Right...
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:40 pm |
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| teya wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | You didn't like Kes and found her boring, that doesn't mean that she was boring or difficult to write for. |
Lynx, the *writers*--the people who created the character--said that she was difficult to write for and that they'd run out of inspiration.
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As I've written before, that statement from the so-called writers is not the truth. They had no problem at all to come up with good Kes stories untile they were ordered to or decided that it was impossible to come up with good stories because Kes had been kicked out and they had to come up with something to defend that act.
If the writers was that lousy, then they should have been kicked out and replaced by people who could write.
Good writers like Greg Cox and Christie Golden have showed that they can come up with good Kes stories. Even Jeri Taylor herself could do that, shortly before she decided or was ordered not to be able to do it anymore.
As for supporting your posts, I haven't forbidden anyone to support your opinion in this case but I find it a bit annoying when people can't support it with something of their own.
As for fabricating criticizm, you did accuse me for doing that in a previous post. As I see it, my criticizm isn't more fabricated than yours.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:15 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | As for fabricating criticizm, you did accuse me for doing that in a previous post. As I see it, my criticizm isn't more fabricated than yours. |
Please provide link. I've scanned back through the posts and I don't see it.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:31 pm |
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| teya wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | As for fabricating criticizm, you did accuse me for doing that in a previous post. As I see it, my criticizm isn't more fabricated than yours. |
Please provide link. I've scanned back through the posts and I don't see it. |
| teya wrote: | Well, by your own admission you've seen seasons 4 & 5 once. And you stopped watching altogether after "Fury."
Since you haven't explored that character, it doesn't surprise me that you repeat things that you can't prove--and are grossly exaggerated and fabricated. |
Two posts above.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:43 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | | And Voyager 2004, try to come up with something of your own instead of playing cheerleader to others who criticizes Kes. |
I've come up with PLENTY of things on my own. But you, of all people, would find it redundant of myself to go ahead and post what was already posted. Heck, I would find it redundand if I would have posted what Teya had already posted. So, I saw no reason to RE-post what was already said. Therefore letting Teya know that they were not the only person ready to pounce on the other character's flaws...Think before you speak next time. 
| lynx wrote: | | As I've written before, that statement from the so-called writers is not the truth. |
And who are you to say that it's not true? Maybe, nobody important at Trek? Ya, maybe they DID have some good stories before saying good-bye, but who's to say that those weren't VERY difficult to come up with? Just because they had several good episodes before hand doesn't mean that they weren't VERY difficult to write and come up with.
| lynx wrote: | | As for supporting your posts, I haven't forbidden anyone to support your opinion in this case but I find it a bit annoying when people can't support it with something of their own. |
Oh, but lynx, I have supported Teya several times with stuff of my own. You're just upset that I decided not to write the same exact thing that Teya wrote, at which point you would probably accuse me of copy-catting Teya's post. As you almost accused me of doing to Founder some time ago.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:51 pm |
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This is gettng old. Everyone, stop jumping to conclusions, if you have a problem with a member, or think that perhaps they answered, or adressed you in a wrongful manner, Approch a Mod, or ignore it. We can have disccussion in a friendly manner, or not at all.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:44 pm |
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First of all, Lynx you REALLY need to calm down. You're talking down to people who's views are opposite of yours and thinking you can get away with it. Debate NICELY.
As for the constant comments I keep seeing, you really need to tone down the melodrama already. For months, you've been pushing that anyone who doesn't say they pretty much worship Kes as the best thing to happen to Trek is pretty much someone who HATES the character. That isn't true. I didn't hate Kes...well...before you I didn't hate her.
Just because I don't think she is the epitome of the Trek spirit, doesn't mean I hate her. I didn't mind her character. She didn't add much, but she was alright and (when she grew her hair out and stopped looking like a boy) she was nice to look at. I'm sure she could have done better in later seasons. All the ST shows seem to have the actors unsure of themselves in the beginning seasons. Did she have the potential to be better as the show went along? Yes, definitly. Did someone have to get axed and it was her chosen? YEP.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 5:49 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | First of all, Lynx you REALLY need to calm down. You're talking down to people who's views are opposite of yours and thinking you can get away with it. Debate NICELY.
As for the constant comments I keep seeing, you really need to tone down the melodrama already. For months, you've been pushing that anyone who doesn't say they pretty much worship Kes as the best thing to happen to Trek is pretty much someone who HATES the character. That isn't true. I didn't hate Kes...well...before you I didn't hate her.
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I think this issue was addressed once in the post right before yours. No need to cover it again?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:01 pm |
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Anyways, I think for those who critcize Kes, they don't understand that the acting in the earlier seasons of all the Trek shows, seems to always be poor. It happened in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps the actors find it difficult getting into the roles, I'm not sure. But this could be one of the reasons that Kes gets a lot of flak. I don't even know if the rumors are true if it came down between Harry Kim and Kes, but someone had to go, I'm not sure why she was chosen. But I certainly don't agree that there was some insidious conspiracy to destroy her. As for...was she a waste of space? Nope. She served her purpose and left. Nothing more.
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:20 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Anyways, I think for those who critcize Kes, they don't understand that the acting in the earlier seasons of all the Trek shows, seems to always be poor. It happened in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY. I'm not sure why that is. Perhaps the actors find it difficult getting into the roles, I'm not sure. But this could be one of the reasons that Kes gets a lot of flak. I don't even know if the rumors are true if it came down between Harry Kim and Kes, but someone had to go, I'm not sure why she was chosen. But I certainly don't agree that there was some insidious conspiracy to destroy her. As for...was she a waste of space? Nope. She served her purpose and left. Nothing more. |
I agree and very well said by the way.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:40 am |
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| Founder wrote: | First of all, Lynx you REALLY need to calm down. You're talking down to people who's views are opposite of yours and thinking you can get away with it. Debate NICELY.
As for the constant comments I keep seeing, you really need to tone down the melodrama already. For months, you've been pushing that anyone who doesn't say they pretty much worship Kes as the best thing to happen to Trek is pretty much someone who HATES the character. That isn't true. I didn't hate Kes...well...before you I didn't hate her.
Just because I don't think she is the epitome of the Trek spirit, doesn't mean I hate her. I didn't mind her character. She didn't add much, but she was alright and (when she grew her hair out and stopped looking like a boy) she was nice to look at. I'm sure she could have done better in later seasons. All the ST shows seem to have the actors unsure of themselves in the beginning seasons. Did she have the potential to be better as the show went along? Yes, definitly. Did someone have to get axed and it was her chosen? YEP. |
Why am I the one who shuld calm down? I'm rather calm as I am despite that I'm constantly attacked from every direction.
As for melodrama, I haven't stated that everyone should worship Kes, that's a somewhat melodramatic exaggeration from your side. But I have a feeling that some posters really dislike her for some strange reasons and are trying to come up with theories and excuses for the way TIIC treated the character. Since those theories aren't always so close to the truth, I feel that I have to contradict those theories. I think that is called debating and so far I think we have handled that thing pretty well.
As for someone being axed, I must state that Kes had more potential than Kim and therefore shuld have stayed in the show but I do think that none of the original main characters should have been kicked out because they were too good for that. Not to mention the diabolic insult to the fans of Kes that "Fury" was.
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:47 pm |
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Wow.
you guys are still aggrevating your carpel tunnels over this.
Please stop feeding the Kes trolls
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:43 pm |
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Why even argue about this? It is over! The show is over, get over it already , no offense.  I know this is a discussion board , but this is getting ridlicous(Excuse the spelling.) Kes was good in some ways. The writers just simply couldn't write for her. If I can accept, you can too Lynx.
[Locked - Puck:
I locked it because it is clear that after being publicly warned, some people can still not handle this topic rationally. Also I now have users coming in to make posts that make no apparent contribution to the discussion, but only to tell a user to be quiet (aka: spam).]
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