| A waste of space? |
| Yes |
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50% |
[ 14 ] |
| No |
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[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 28 |
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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 Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:38 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | The Ocampa life-span was a mistake from the beginning. |
No, it wasn't. It was the one thing about the character that made her unique, offered a different perspective.
| Quote: | | But it wouldn't have been any problem to change that. The Ocampa on Suspiria's array could live until 20 years or more. Their technology could have been used to prolong Kes's lifespan. Or Q or The Doctor could have come up with something. |
To alter the lifespan is to say that what is normal for the Ocampa is bad, that Kes would be "better" if she were altered to fit human parameters.
This goes against *everything* that Trek has ever been about. In the world of science fiction--where aliens are metaphors for the minorities in our own culture--it says that you need to be like the majority. That it's *right* for, racial minorities to alter their features to look more like the majority.
Had they altered Kes's lifespan they would have altered a key part of who she was. And would be saying this was admirable. That's taking IDIC and smashing it to tiny little bits.
I would have turned off the television set right then and there and never watched Star Trek again. And I know a lot of long-time fans would have done the same.
| Quote: | | But the constant trashing of the character and the actress plus the happiness some people show over how she was kicked out from the show is a bit annoying. |
Who's trashing, Lynx? Who's happy?
| Quote: | | There have been characters I've found bland and sometimes annoying too. But I've always seen them as important parts of the Star Trek story and therefore I have accepted them and I've missed them when or if they have left for different reasons. |
I can think of at least one character you don't accept or see as an important part of the Star Trek story.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:12 pm |
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The Ocampa lifespan and that rubbish that they could only have one child was a mistake. Such a species would never have made it out of the caves and never survived for a longer period.
So changing Kes's lifespan would go against everything Trek stands for but turning her into a monster and that energy-being rubbish is not. The events in "Fury" was the worst violation to everything that Trek stands for that I have ever experienced but that's acceptable for those who are happy that she was kicked out of the show. Please spare me from that!
Not to mention Spock's resurrection in Star Trek III. If a prolonging of Kes's lifespan is a violation of everything Trek stands for, then what was that? It's obvious that there are different rules for different characters, at least on some forums.
As for turning ofv the television there and then, well that's exactly what I did when I watched "Fury". And it will take a very long time before I become the Trek fan I once was, if I ever will be it again.
As for being happy, it seems like most of the posters who are posting on this forum are extremely happy that Kes was kicked out in the first place and humiliated and destroyed later on. Otherwise they wouldn't try to come up with all those defendings for her being kickedf out and theories which supports the decision to wipe her out from the Voyager story.
As for characters who I accept and find important, I must admit that I do recognize Seven Of Nine as an important part of the Voyager story. Even if she isn't my favorite character, I wouldn't imagine erasing her from the Voyager storyline or from future Voyager stories in books, movies or fanfiction.
I might find Seven annoying sometimes for different reason but she was never bland and uninteresting.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:18 pm |
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| Admiral Dani�l wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | The Ocampa life-span was a mistake from the beginning. But it wouldn't have been any problem to change that. The Ocampa on Suspiria's array could live until 20 years or more. Their technology could have been used to prolong Kes's lifespan. Or Q or The Doctor could have come up with something. |
2 things about that: Can the doctor extend the life of a human to 200 years old? NO, so it would seem logical that Kes cant get twice as old. And if Q would do that, he would be messing with time and space by altering her. Not to mention the Q counsel wouldn't allow it. |
How do you know that? Have you talked to the Q counsel?
As for Q or The Doctor prolonging Kes's lifespan, it's more believable and realistic than Spock's resurrection or Seven bringing Neelix back to life. Not to mention all those "reset button" episodes.
The Ocampa could live until they were 20 or so. That was stated in "Cold Fire".
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:47 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | | The Ocampa on Suspiria's array could live until 20 years or more. |
No they can't. They said that there was an Ocampa that lived to be 20 years. Nothing was ever stated about an older Ocampan than that. So it's not very wise to assume something so great.
| lynx wrote: | | But the constant trashing of the character and the actress plus the happiness some people show over how she was kicked out from the show is a bit annoying. |
Who's trashing? Just because someone expresses that it was time for her to go, or she served her purpose, doesn't constitute as trashing. Choose your words carefully. And just because some people like Seven more than Kes, doesn't mean they were "happy" to see her go. Again, choose your words wisely.
| lynx wrote: | The Ocampa lifespan and that rubbish that they could only have one child was a mistake. Such a species would never have made it out of the caves and never survived for a longer period.
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Why was it a mistake? I don't think it was a mistake. It's interesting. I like the idea that they can only have one child. Have we seen a Trek race so far that can have only ONE child? I haven't. What about living less than a decade? I haven't. It's interesting. Unique.
| lynx wrote: | | So changing Kes's lifespan would go against everything Trek stands for but turning her into a monster and that energy-being rubbish is not. The events in "Fury" was the worst violation to everything that Trek stands for that I have ever experienced but that's acceptable for those who are happy that she was kicked out of the show. |
Well, seeing as to how you're the ONLY person here that thinks she was "turned into a monster..." She wasn't turned into a monster. It didn't "violate" the character, either. That was some of her best acting on Voyager. And "Fury" was not a violation to everything Trek stands for. How was it? Hmm? She got confused out in space, all by herself, and she went to seek revenge. Then was later reminded that she was confused...Definitely not a Violation of what Trek stands for.
| lynx wrote: | | As for being happy, it seems like most of the posters who are posting on this forum are extremely happy that Kes was kicked out in the first place and humiliated and destroyed later on. |
Nobody has ever said they're "happy." You just assume.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:18 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | The Ocampa lifespan and that rubbish that they could only have one child was a mistake. Such a species would never have made it out of the caves and never survived for a longer period.
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Why was it a mistake? I don't think it was a mistake. It's interesting. I like the idea that they can only have one child. Have we seen a Trek race so far that can have only ONE child? I haven't. What about living less than a decade? I haven't. It's interesting. Unique. |
I agree with you on the lifespan. There's lots of potential material there.
But, Lynx is absolutely right on the one child rubbish. It's scientifically impossible. If every couple doesn't produce at least 2 offspring, there aren't enough people to replace them.
Ocampa's population would have died out within a few generations.
| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | | So changing Kes's lifespan would go against everything Trek stands for but turning her into a monster and that energy-being rubbish is not. The events in "Fury" was the worst violation to everything that Trek stands for that I have ever experienced but that's acceptable for those who are happy that she was kicked out of the show. |
Well, seeing as to how you're the ONLY person here that thinks she was "turned into a monster..." She wasn't turned into a monster. It didn't "violate" the character, either. That was some of her best acting on Voyager. And "Fury" was not a violation to everything Trek stands for. How was it? Hmm? She got confused out in space, all by herself, and she went to seek revenge. Then was later reminded that she was confused...Definitely not a Violation of what Trek stands for. |
Exactly.
I would have preferred that they not make Kes's mental abilities the defining feature of the character, because they were used more as plot devices--woo hoo! Kes alerts Voyager to Species 8472! woo hoo! Kes saves Voyager from the Borg!--than for character development, "Fury" was perfectly in character from the point Kes left. And it was the one and only example of that character making a mistake that had consequences.
She *wanted* to evolve. She wanted that badly. The explorer in her needed to see what was possible. But she was young and unprepared for the isolation. And she was hurt and angry that Janeway didn't try to protect her from herself--so she sought revenge. And then it was Janeway who enabled her to reconnect with the girl she had been, before loneliness had warped her, and that in turn enabled Kes to be able to return to her people and offer them a new beginning. Absolutely classic Star Trek.
And *terrific* character stuff. I can see why Jennifer liked it--it was an effort to go deeper with the character than she'd ever had the opportunity to on Voyager.
I wonder if she was hurt by the fans who ended up trashing the episode? Now *there* is a question for someone to ask her at her next con. 
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:20 am |
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Kes's mental abilities was never that strong before "The Gift" that she could wipe out The Borg or Species 8472 just with a wink of her eye. She could use her abilities in dangerous situations, like in "Cold Fire" and "Persistence Of Vision" but she didn't have the ability to take out a potential enemy totally. Personally I think that her abilities were perfectly used in that way storywise.
Compare that to later seasons of Voyager where every little problem they encountered could be solved by Seven's Borg technology, Borg knowledge or Borg connections.
Of course "Fury" was perfect because it was the loathed Kes who was pointed out as a monster and ruined as a character! There would have been another song to sing if it had been Janeway, Seven or some other beloved character who had been destroyed with no way to be brought back to what the character once was. Just imagine if poor Seven had been revealed as a traitor, ready to turn them over to The Borg and who finally had been killed off at the end of the episode (as TIIC originally planned to do with Kes). I would have loved to see how the forum would have looked like then. Storywise such an event would have been more believable than the rubbish in "The Gift" and "Fury".
As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was never stated that it was impossible to prolong it either. Tanis was 14, his father lived until he was 20 and the technology they used could be used on Kes as well.
As if Jennifer being hurt by the fans who are trashing the episode? I don't think so, she has never said anything about it. There's also another side of the coin, her fans were terribly hurt by that episode and many of us have questioned why she went back to those who ill-treated her in the first place, only to participate in that piece of crap. There are questions to ask there as well.
But at least she made them change the end of the episode, the sweet and gently beings who were in charge of the show originally planned to kill off Kes as a "gift" to her fans. No doubt that we love them, don't we?
As for fans and such, if I was some celebrity of some sort, I would be very careful to participate in something that would damage my reputation among the true, loyal fans I might have. Doing that can have a very bad impact on the career, of which there are many examples in the world of entertainment.
or like Ozzy Osbourne said: "Don't thread on people on your way up because you'll meet them again on your way down."
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Admiral Dani�l
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:03 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | Kes's mental abilities was never that strong before "The Gift" that she could wipe out The Borg or Species 8472 just with a wink of her eye. She could use her abilities in dangerous situations, like in "Cold Fire" and "Persistence Of Vision" but she didn't have the ability to take out a potential enemy totally. Personally I think that her abilities were perfectly used in that way storywise.
Noooo! That is just not fun anymore, someone warns them and a real solution to the situation is gone. If she didn't warned Voy then we could have a REAL solution. I'd rather have a technology Borg solution then that boring psychic stuff.
Compare that to later seasons of Voyager where every little problem they encountered could be solved by Seven's Borg technology, Borg knowledge or Borg connections.
Well at least they solved it in a way it was interesting, yes I agree it was too much and yes Kes had her good episodes, but the Borg technology was more... unknown, psychic is to predictable.
Of course "Fury" was perfect because it was the loathed Kes who was pointed out as a monster and ruined as a character! There would have been another song to sing if it had been Janeway, Seven or some other beloved character who had been destroyed with no way to be brought back to what the character once was. Just imagine if poor Seven had been revealed as a traitor, ready to turn them over to The Borg and who finally had been killed off at the end of the episode (as TIIC originally planned to do with Kes). I would have loved to see how the forum would have looked like then. Storywise such an event would have been more believable than the rubbish in "The Gift" and "Fury".
You got it totally wrong here, Kes helped Voy, and we never say that Kes was not important for Voy, your example is that Seven would be bad, and that's because you are mad she took Kes her place at Voy. But you need to realise, that the psychic stuff was getting too easy to predict. If you would see the 1st part of Voy you knew how it ended in the last part...
As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was never stated that it was impossible to prolong it either. Tanis was 14, his father lived until he was 20 and the technology they used could be used on Kes as well.
And how would they get a caretaker being aboard Voy? Don't tell me that the dead one would be implanted on her... that's just sick... The other Ocampas could get that old cause that other caretaker used her power to let em live longer, now don't tell me the doctor is a higher lifeform...
As if Jennifer being hurt by the fans who are trashing the episode? I don't think so, she has never said anything about it. There's also another side of the coin, her fans were terribly hurt by that episode and many of us have questioned why she went back to those who ill-treated her in the first place, only to participate in that piece of crap. There are questions to ask there as well.
Man, it's just a show... a simple star trek show. No one is going to her and laugh whaha Seven is much better, your character sucked! Maybe she wanted to leave herself, or they wouldn't have her anymore cause she was getting boring... And with Seven rating were sure to rise, the fans that came for her, came also for Voy, me, I think Kes AND Seven would be a real nice combo!
But at least she made them change the end of the episode, the sweet and gently beings who were in charge of the show originally planned to kill off Kes as a "gift" to her fans. No doubt that we love them, don't we?
No comment
As for fans and such, if I was some celebrity of some sort, I would be very careful to participate in something that would damage my reputation among the true, loyal fans I might have. Doing that can have a very bad impact on the career, of which there are many examples in the world of entertainment.
Come on, get normal! Actors can't go to the cast and say, my char must be the best of all, I'm gonna write a new episode, cause otherwise I can't be the star of the show. The result would be: Kes would do everything on the ship, everyone is just sitting down and doing nothing, and she is the hero, Seven would immediately take the ship, Kes would put on a superhero costume with K on it and stop seven, and then she would go cause she was needed elsewhere...
or like Ozzy Osbourne said: "Don't thread on people on your way up because you'll meet them again on your way down."
What the hell does that have to make with this?! |
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:01 pm |
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One of the things I would like to comment in the post above is the comment that Kes and Seven would be a real nice combo. I totally agree that there would have been room for both of them in the show and that it could have been really interesting.
The other thing I would like to comment is your theory that Jennifer Lien did leave of her own free will. She didn't. She was fired to make room for Ryan and her character.
Otherwise you're just twisting my words and coming up with comments I've never written. I have stated several times how Kes's lifespan could be prolonged and that does not include any dead caretakers at all so please read my posts and try to understand what I mean before commenting on them.
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Admiral Dani�l
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:38 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | One of the things I would like to comment in the post above is the comment that Kes and Seven would be a real nice combo. I totally agree that there would have been room for both of them in the show and that it could have been really interesting.
The other thing I would like to comment is your theory that Jennifer Lien did leave of her own free will. She didn't. She was fired to make room for Ryan and her character.
Otherwise you're just twisting my words and coming up with comments I've never written. I have stated several times how Kes's lifespan could be prolonged and that does not include any dead caretakers at all so please read my posts and try to understand what I mean before commenting on them. |
Have you read my post good? NO! I say something of a theory that the a caretaker can only extend a ocampas lifespan. I said if they put the dead one maybe some of his "magic" would have the same effect as a alive one!
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:23 pm |
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Let's all settle down and remember this is a fictional TV show, k?
Awesome.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:09 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | She could use her abilities in dangerous situations, like in "Cold Fire" and "Persistence Of Vision" but she didn't have the ability to take out a potential enemy totally. Personally I think that her abilities were perfectly used in that way storywise. |
See, but in those episodes, she brought nothing new to the Trek universe. She used the abilities she had much as Troi had or Spock or Tuvok. They were useful bits of using established character traits to solve problems, but they didn't give us any new insight.
Contrast that with the episode where Troi lost her abilities, how lost she was without them. We could understand what it would be like to lose that sense if we'd always had it--that it would be like going blind. One would have to learn to navigate the world differently, to adapt. It gave us insight not only into Troi, but into what it would be to be an empath.
| Quote: | | Compare that to later seasons of Voyager where every little problem they encountered could be solved by Seven's Borg technology, Borg knowledge or Borg connections. |
Exaggeration lessens the impact of your argument. But, yeah, there were many times when I got irritated with them using the Borg solution. I also would have preferred it if they'd pointed out how Seven's physiology limits her--her need to regenerate precludes extended periods away from the ship. In a lot of ways, she's a "medically intensive" character--dependent on technology, much like a dialysis patient today. They could have done more with that, and I would have preferred that they did.
See, I don't think Seven was perfectly written as is. That's why I write fanfic.
| Quote: | | Of course "Fury" was perfect because it was the loathed Kes who was pointed out as a monster and ruined as a character! |
This is what gets you in trouble... Nowhere in my replies have I said that I "loathe" Kes. Yet you exaggerate the emotion. In turn, I get to the point where, after I'm told enough times that I loathe her, hate her, bash her, I figure, well, might as well loathe her--since it doesn't matter what I say, it will all be interpreted as hate.
What I said was that "Fury" was the dark side of Kes's instinct to explore coming back to bite her in the butt. It was a situation that grew out of her character and the choices her character had made. It gave us insight into Kes, and insight into the loneliness inherent in being a being with that much power, but isolated from interaction with others by her very nature.
She wasn't a monster--she was a person who'd made a mistake. For me, that makes her more likeable.
| Quote: | | There would have been another song to sing if it had been Janeway, Seven or some other beloved character who had been destroyed with no way to be brought back to what the character once was. |
After someone makes a mistake, they never go back to what they once were. Even if the situation is resolved positively (as at the end of "Fury" when Kes goes off to Ocampa), the character is changed by the experience. That's drama.
Without it, there is no story.
| Quote: | | As for the Ocampa lifespan, it was never stated that it was impossible to prolong it either. Tanis was 14, his father lived until he was 20 and the technology they used could be used on Kes as well. |
The technology came from Susperia. I didn't hear her offering it to Kes.
The thing is, when you give a character a trait, it's usually a good idea to use it, not simply write it off using technobabble. The short Ocampa lifespan was a character trait that could have spawned real drama. Too bad it didn't.
| Quote: | | As for fans and such, if I was some celebrity of some sort, I would be very careful to participate in something that would damage my reputation among the true, loyal fans I might have. |
Well, I guess if she was a celebrity of some sort, she might think that way. But she's an *actor*. It's an art, it's a craft, and actors like things that challenge them--the good ones do, anyway.
I know it might hurt fans, but really, actors don't think about pleasing us first--they think about the work and hope the fans follow. And that's as it should be. It's their job.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:01 pm |
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| teya wrote: | But, Lynx is absolutely right on the one child rubbish. It's scientifically impossible. If every couple doesn't produce at least 2 offspring, there aren't enough people to replace them.
Ocampa's population would have died out within a few generations. |
True. I never thought about the producing 2 offspring to compensate for their parents and such. You're right there. But at the same time, regardless of that fact, it still made the Ocampa interesting.
| Lynx wrote: | Of course "Fury" was perfect because it was the loathed Kes who was pointed out as a monster and ruined as a character! There would have been another song to sing if it had been Janeway, Seven or some other beloved character who had been destroyed with no way to be brought back to what the character once was. Just imagine if poor Seven had been revealed as a traitor, ready to turn them over to The Borg and who finally had been killed off at the end of the episode (as TIIC originally planned to do with Kes). I would have loved to see how the forum would have looked like then. Storywise such an event would have been more believable than the rubbish in "The Gift" and "Fury".
Of course there would have been some "singing" going on if it were Seven or Janeway that was "ruined." Wanna know why? Because they were MAIN characters. You have pointed out yourself, MANY times, that Kes was NOT a main character, and was never intended to be a main character. So DUH there would have been some singing if they "ruined" Janeway or Seven.
As if Jennifer being hurt by the fans who are trashing the episode? I don't think so, she has never said anything about it. Maybe because she tries to forget those that trashed it...hmm There's also another side of the coin, her fans were terribly hurt by that episode and many of us have questioned why she went back to those who ill-treated her in the first place, only to participate in that piece of crap. There are questions to ask there as well. Maybe it's because she LIKED the idea of Kes going back angered and seeking revenge. It gave her more freedom to show a dark side of Kes than she could show on the show before. Not to mention, it kind of gave a closure to Kes. They just "got rid" of her so quickly, as you say, and it gave Lien the chance to come back and give closure to her character. I don't think she would have gone back if she felt like it "ruined" her character. She probably in fact liked it...
But at least she made them change the end of the episode, the sweet and gently beings who were in charge of the show originally planned to kill off Kes as a "gift" to her fans. No doubt that we love them, don't we? Hey, a death is easier to close a character out than bringing them back. So no matter what, there's no pleasing you. You're upset and angry because they got rid of her and then brought her back and "ruined" her...yet if they just killed her off, making it more simple for Trek, you would still be uptight. So you're pretty much saying, that no matter what Trek would have done, there is no pleasing you.
As for fans and such, if I was some celebrity of some sort, I would be very careful to participate in something that would damage my reputation among the true, loyal fans I might have. Doing that can have a very bad impact on the career, of which there are many examples in the world of entertainment. Oh, I'd be careful too, but at the same time, I would do what's BEST for my career than satisfy my fans. And who's to say that she didn't like the episode "Fury?" I would do what's best for me, than those that are "truly" loyal. Because you know what? Fans come, and fans go. She when she loses one, she might gain 10. |
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:41 am |
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Let's take it from the start and begin with teya's points: First of all I consider Kes a more interesting telepathic character than Troi. Kes had more guts and more determination that Troi ever had 8no offense to Troi who I actually like). As I see it, there would be no problem to come up with good stories about Kes and her psychic abilities, maybe even better stories than those about Troi.
As for Kes, I do see some flaws here and there in the character but none of them are worse than for the other Voyager characters. But I write some fanfic too!  Unfortunately I don't always have the time for it because of other writing tasks but I hope that I can come up with something from time to time.
I have never seen anywhere that you have stated that you loathe Kes but some people on this forum seem to do that. On the other hand, you are very quick to come up with not so nice remarks about the character and the actress.
"Fury" turned Kes into a monster. The "reasons" (or whatever crazy crap TIIC might have come up with as "reasons") had nothing to do with it. They ruined the character and there was no way back. As for "drama", every other character in Star Trek who have been turned into something out of character (Kirk, Spock, Picard, LaForge, Paris) have been restored as if nothing had happened. Not Kes.
Tanis said that the technology for prolonging the Ocampa lifespan could be used on Kes as well.
As for actors and their job, there are actors who have convinced the so-called writers about other solutions when the original story haven't been what they wanted. In this case, its obvious that more and less all of the fans of the character Kes felt insulted by what happened in "Fury", something that both actors and so-called writes would have anticipated and therefore avoided if they want to keep the popularity. After all, we are paying their wages!
And now to Voyager 2004:
Kes was a main character, just like Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, Torres, Paris, Kim, Neelix, The Doctor and later on Seven. The most prominent main characters from the start were Janeway and Chakotay but all the others were main characters.
What I mean that there would have been a lot of whining among the current fans of Voyager if Janeway or Seven had been ruined and destroyed the same way as Kes was. I guess that most of the fans would have quit the series there and then and drowned TIIC:s hedquarters with hate mail. Not to mention this forum. Honestly, no one would dream about making Janeway, Seven, Chakotay or any other main character be ridiculed and ruined the same way as Kes was.
As for pleasing me, there was actually a way to please me in theis matter: To bring back Kes as a main character the way she was in seasons 1, 2 and 3! That was what the fans who participated in the letter campaign wanted. Instead, TIIC did choose too destroy the character and insult us. I'll tell you, if they hafd brought back Kes the way we wnted, then I should have forgiven them for "The Gift" and that kes was kicked out. Now I won't. It's like "spit in my face once and maybe I forgive you, do it twice and I strike back". But you are right in one thing, I'm upset and angry.
Participating in "Fury" haven't improved Jennifer Lien's career or boosted her popularity, on the other hand we are a bunch of die-hard fans who appreciate what she did in seasons 1,2 and 3 of Voyager and we are truly loyal. But even loyal fans might criticize what they think is wrong.
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StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:29 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | | La Forge wrote: | | Lynx? I'd like to see that list, if you don't mind. I bet that you can't name 10 legitimately wasteful characters. |
Well I really don't want to do that because, as I've stated before, I actually like most of those characters and this will be way out of topic but here we go:
TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either.
A good advice: Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win! |
How could you think Ezri was a bore but be a Kes fan. Their acting is so alike they could be twins!!
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StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:29 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | | La Forge wrote: | | Lynx? I'd like to see that list, if you don't mind. I bet that you can't name 10 legitimately wasteful characters. |
Well I really don't want to do that because, as I've stated before, I actually like most of those characters and this will be way out of topic but here we go:
TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either.
A good advice: Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win! |
How could you think Ezri was a bore but be a Kes fan. Their acting is so alike they could be twins!!
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StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:30 am |
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Sorrry, double post
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:47 am |
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Honestly, I like Ezri!
I actually like most of the characters on that list, even if I find some of them somewhat bland. I even liked Wesley Crusher and couldn't understand the hatred aimed at him. The only characters I have had some problems with are the "Enterprise" characters because I found the whole series very boring and lacking the quality of a Star Trek series and Seven Of Nine, mostly for how andwhy she was brougt in and the over-focus on the character.
As for Ezri, the only problem I have with the character is that she so blatantly replaced Jadzia. If she had been and "independent character" and maybe brought in from the start or earlier on in the series, she should have been one of my favorites. Now it felt a bit unnecessary to bring her in just for the last seasosn.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:29 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Let's take it from the start and begin with teya's points: First of all I consider Kes a more interesting telepathic character than Troi. Kes had more guts and more determination that Troi ever had 8no offense to Troi who I actually like). As I see it, there would be no problem to come up with good stories about Kes and her psychic abilities, maybe even better stories than those about Troi. |
I used Troi as an example. You're speaking in generalities. Please provide some specifics. What makes Kes more interesting than Troi? What good stories could they have come up with for Kes?
| Quote: | | As for Kes, I do see some flaws here and there in the character but none of them are worse than for the other Voyager characters. |
By all means, please tell me. Because for 6 years, you've been saying that Kes is sweet and determined and curious and resolute and brave.
These aren't flaws. And, frankly, I can't think of a single character flaw this character had until "Fury."
Which, IMO, makes her boring.
| Quote: | | I have never seen anywhere that you have stated that you loathe Kes but some people on this forum seem to do that. |
Then please, do not put their words in my mouth.
| Quote: | | On the other hand, you are very quick to come up with not so nice remarks about the character and the actress. |
Ah, so any criticism of the actress's performance or the character as presented is "not very nice."
Honestly, it's refusing to accept legitimate criticism of performance and character, lumping it all into bashing of Jennifer Lien, that gets you into trouble.
| Quote: | | In this case, its obvious that more and less all of the fans of the character Kes felt insulted by what happened in "Fury", something that both actors and so-called writes would have anticipated and therefore avoided if they want to keep the popularity. After all, we are paying their wages! |
Um, no, we're not. In this case, Paramount was paying their wages.
| Quote: | | What I mean that there would have been a lot of whining among the current fans of Voyager if Janeway or Seven had been ruined and destroyed the same way as Kes was. I guess that most of the fans would have quit the series there and then and drowned TIIC:s hedquarters with hate mail. |
You know what? Braga *wanted* to kill Seven off in the finale, making the point that she would never be able to be "completely human"--that after 4 years of trying, she could never find redemption for what she'd done as Borg.
You're absolutely right. Had they done that, I would have shut the TV off in disgust and never looked back. I would never have discovered the online Trek community. I would never have discovered fanfiction. I certainly would never have written it.
But not because they killed off Seven. Because the manner in which they planned to do it went against the entire philosophy of Star Trek.
Just as I would have been disgusted if "Fury" had killed off Kes at the end as originally written. The death itself wouldn't be the issue. What that death meant in terms of Trek philosophy would have been.
Unlike you, I have absolutely no problem with character deaths if they're done well. It's realistic. People die. That's life--death is the *only* thing we're guaranteed when we're born. I don't need my television sanitized, I don't need an escape from reality.
They killed off Dr. Green on "ER" with a brain tumor, a three-season arc that was realistic, heartfelt, and gripping. Lucy, a med student, died of realistic complications (a pulmonary embolus) after being stabbed by a schizophrenic patient, something made possible by the carelessness of her colleagues. They killed off Dr. Gallant when his convoy hit a roadside bomb in Iraq.
Were they sad? You betcha. Did I, as I was watching and crying, wish that they didn't have to die? Did I root for them all the way, even though I already knew they were doomed? You betcha. Did I grieve with Lizzie, as she was left a widowed mother with a toddler? Yep. Did I feel the agony of the coworker whose carelessness inadvertantly led to Lucy's death? Did I feel the pain of the colleages who struggled in vain to save her? Yep. Did I sob through a box of Kleenex as Neela grieved her soldier husband--while still struggling with the knowledge that she didn't want him to go back, and the guilt for having told him so? Oh, gods, yes.
These were 3 characters I really liked, characters that had kept me tuning in week after week. Yet their deaths were realistic and in keeping with the philosophy of the show and the personalities of the characters as they'd been presented. Never once did I consider giving up on the show, never once did it cross my mind to condemn TPTB. I don't want characters leading a happy, no stakes life. I want them to struggle, just as we do in real life. That's drama. That's what storytelling is all about.
| Quote: | | on the other hand we are a bunch of die-hard fans who appreciate what she did in seasons 1,2 and 3 of Voyager and we are truly loyal. But even loyal fans might criticize what they think is wrong. |
Curious double-standard here. You "die hard" fans--so die-hard that you stopped watching after one character was removed from the show (not even killed) are permitted to criticize.
When I, a 40-year viewer who saw *every* *single* episode of Trek in first run from Sept 9, 1966 to the finale of Enterprise, criticize that character, I'm bashing.
Pray tell--how do I achieve the authority to criticize like you?
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:29 pm |
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Good stories for Kes? They could have made a lot of them where her wit, courage, telepathic abilities and her ability to stand up and fight for what she believe was right (as she did in "Caretaker"). They could have come up with as many stories for her as for Troi, Dax, Dr. Crusher and male charcters like Kim, O'Brien, Bashir, LaForge and many more.
As for flaws, well the lifespan is the one I can think of. But that was a writer error for the species, maybe not for the character. So I take back the comment about flaws. The difference between the Kes we see in the TV show and the stories I might come up with is that she' s more prominent in my stories, taking bold decisions and such, sometimes opposing friends and colleagues who want her to be more careful or stay in the background. I would have like to see more of that.
But I don't find her boring. As I've stated before, there are other characters who I find more boring or bland, however I still like them!
As for criticizm, I can only refer to how you react if and when Seven/Ryan is criticized. I think we have the same ways when it comes to dealing with criticizm in that matter. And people on this forum aren't always so nice to Kes.
As for paying wages, if we weren't supporting their shows by watching them and buying certain products, Paramount couldn't afford to pay the actors wages. So in a way, we are contributing to the welfare of the Star Trek actors, not to mention the hotshots at Paramount. Therefore they shouldshow respect to the fans, maybe keep a finger in the air to feel where the wind blows. I would do that if I was in charge.
As for Braga, he seem to have an affection for making the fans angry and honestly, I want him out for many reasons ("Fury" is one of them).
I can agree that deaths can have some purpose in some series but what happened to Kes in "Fury" was totally unnecessary. I would have liked it better if they had never brought her back at all.
As for ER, well it don't look like it would become my favorite series. Not exactly what I want when I want to relax from the daily pains.
As for the comment on "die-hard fans", that's exactly what it was. As a die hard fan of Kes, when I found out about the reasons why "The Gift" was the last episode (as you know, the episoed was aired a lot earlier in the US than in my home country so I did know all about the real reasons then), I didn't see any purpose in watching Voyager anymore because my favorite character was no longer there. So why waste time?
But the comment in my post was more about Jennifer Lien than Star Trek. What I meant was that I do admire her excellent acting in Voyager and the way she gave life to the charcter Kes and I do consider myself a fan but I can also criticize what I don't like which was her decision to do "Fury".
As for Star Trek, the fact that I'm living in a country where Star Trek is more cult than commonly popular have made it difficult to watch every, single episode thanks to our stupid TV stations. As a matter of fact, the channel who bought DS9 abandoned the show after one season so I have only watched episodes here and there after that, borrowing video tapes and such. But I have actually seen all TOS episodes plus all movies, all TNG episodes and movies, all Voyager episodes up to "Fury" plus "Endgame" and the four first episodes of "Enterprise" (I just couldn't stand more of it). I do think that gives me some right to criticize what I don't like.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:51 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Good stories for Kes? They could have made a lot of them where her wit, courage, telepathic abilities and her ability to stand up and fight for what she believe was right (as she did in "Caretaker"). |
So, what you wanted was heroic stories for Kes where she never made a mistake.
Sorry, there is nothing compelling in that--perfect characters get annoying after awhile. People can't relate to them.
| Quote: | | As for flaws, well the lifespan is the one I can think of. But that was a writer error for the species, maybe not for the character. So I take back the comment about flaws. |
And that's exactly my point. The character has no flaws. Flaws are what makes a character "human"--and interesting.
| Quote: | | As for criticizm, I can only refer to how you react if and when Seven/Ryan is criticized. |
If someone has legitimate criticism of Seven or Ryan, I'm perfectly fine with it. I'll debate them, but I won't call 'em a basher.
The *only* time you'll see me losing my mind and calling someone a basher is if someone spreads lies--like saying she got her start in *beep* films. And then I will gladly take the warning for calling them on it.
| Quote: | | I do think that gives me some right to criticize what I don't like. |
Yep, it does. But you implied that as a "die hard fan," you had more right to criticize than I. My question was, if watching the show faithfully for 40 years *doesn't* make me a "die hard fan" and give me the right to criticize, then what will?
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:10 pm |
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Oh, I could probably come up with a story where Kes makes mistakes too. But if we look at it from the other direction, most of the characters in Star Trek are flawless in the same way you described Kes. They never make mistakes and the rules and regulations of the Federation are more than often the right thing. Look at Picard. Did he ever make a mistake? or The Doctor?
As for criticizing, I don't think I've ever questioned your status as a die-hard fan and I haven't questioned your right to criticize.
What I might react on is the constant downgrading of the character Kes from many fans here. Some of that criticizm is exaggerated as I see it and as a fan of the character, I take the right to come up with some sort of reply. I guess that what is called debating.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:05 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Oh, I could probably come up with a story where Kes makes mistakes too. But if we look at it from the other direction, most of the characters in Star Trek are flawless in the same way you described Kes. They never make mistakes and the rules and regulations of the Federation are more than often the right thing. Look at Picard. Did he ever make a mistake? or The Doctor? |
Surely you jest!
Picard? His Ahab complex regarding the Borg comes to mind.
And the Doctor? Yeesh, where to start? "Darkling"? "Retrospect"? "Flesh and Blood"? "Author, Author"? "Renaissance Man"?
Thing is, these mistakes grew from either the character's experience (Picard and his guilt over his actions as Locutus) or character flaws (the Doctor's uncontrolled ego).
All of the Voyager characters have character flaws that affect their judgement...
Janeway's guilt over stranding her crew in the DQ leads her to plan a suicide mission in both "The Omega Directive" and "Night." Chakotay's humiliation at the hands of Seska leads him on a suicide mission of his own in "Maneuvers" and he is easily baited by her in "Basics." Torres' temper gets her into trouble on more than one occasion. Kim's survivor's guilt in "Timeless" alters history. The Doctor's ego is a thing of wonder. Neelix reverts to criminal behavior so as not to feel useless in "Fair Trade." And Seven, well, she's stubborn and rude and socially inept.
Even more interesting are positive traits taken to the extreme...
Janeway's belief in Starfleet ideals leads her on a vendetta--and compromises those ideals--in "Equinox." Seven's loyalty to her new "collective" leads her to offer herself as sacrifice in "Dark Frontier," her overconfidence in her own abilities ends up with her almost losing her mind in "The Voyager Conspiracy," and her desire for redemption unleashes a long-dormant threat into the Delta Quadrant in "Dragon's Teeth." The Doctor's sense of guilt over saving the life of a friend over another officer almost destroys him in "Latent Image." Tom's passionate embrace of things that intrigue him gives him tunnel vision, which comes back to bite him in the butt in "Threshold," "Alice," "Vis a Vis," and "30 Days." Neelix's care for Naomi leads him to lie to her in "Once Upon a Time" and his trusting nature makes him an obvious dupe in "Live Fast and Prosper." Chakotay's passion for history almost strands himself and an away team in "One Small Step."
The only time before "Fury" that I can think of a personality trait of Kes's causing some kind of negative reaction (thus leading to drama) is in "Cold Fire." Her curiosity and her trust of Tanis led her astray and put Voyager in danger. Not to mention she almost killed Tuvok.
If you can find some other examples, I'm all ears.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:05 am |
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| teya wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | Oh, I could probably come up with a story where Kes makes mistakes too. But if we look at it from the other direction, most of the characters in Star Trek are flawless in the same way you described Kes. They never make mistakes and the rules and regulations of the Federation are more than often the right thing. Look at Picard. Did he ever make a mistake? or The Doctor? |
Surely you jest!
Picard? His Ahab complex regarding the Borg comes to mind.
And the Doctor? Yeesh, where to start? "Darkling"? "Retrospect"? "Flesh and Blood"? "Author, Author"? "Renaissance Man"?
Thing is, these mistakes grew from either the character's experience (Picard and his guilt over his actions as Locutus) or character flaws (the Doctor's uncontrolled ego).
All of the Voyager characters have character flaws that affect their judgement...
Janeway's guilt over stranding her crew in the DQ leads her to plan a suicide mission in both "The Omega Directive" and "Night." Chakotay's humiliation at the hands of Seska leads him on a suicide mission of his own in "Maneuvers" and he is easily baited by her in "Basics." Torres' temper gets her into trouble on more than one occasion. Kim's survivor's guilt in "Timeless" alters history. The Doctor's ego is a thing of wonder. Neelix reverts to criminal behavior so as not to feel useless in "Fair Trade." And Seven, well, she's stubborn and rude and socially inept.
Even more interesting are positive traits taken to the extreme...
Janeway's belief in Starfleet ideals leads her on a vendetta--and compromises those ideals--in "Equinox." Seven's loyalty to her new "collective" leads her to offer herself as sacrifice in "Dark Frontier," her overconfidence in her own abilities ends up with her almost losing her mind in "The Voyager Conspiracy," and her desire for redemption unleashes a long-dormant threat into the Delta Quadrant in "Dragon's Teeth." The Doctor's sense of guilt over saving the life of a friend over another officer almost destroys him in "Latent Image." Tom's passionate embrace of things that intrigue him gives him tunnel vision, which comes back to bite him in the butt in "Threshold," "Alice," "Vis a Vis," and "30 Days." Neelix's care for Naomi leads him to lie to her in "Once Upon a Time" and his trusting nature makes him an obvious dupe in "Live Fast and Prosper." Chakotay's passion for history almost strands himself and an away team in "One Small Step."
The only time before "Fury" that I can think of a personality trait of Kes's causing some kind of negative reaction (thus leading to drama) is in "Cold Fire." Her curiosity and her trust of Tanis led her astray and put Voyager in danger. Not to mention she almost killed Tuvok.
If you can find some other examples, I'm all ears. |
Ya, you pretty much covered all the "flaws" of the main characters...Beat me to it...Oh well, very well said though! Kudos!!!
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:17 am |
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Well, Kes did get into trouble when she left the Ocampa underground city which lead her to be captured by the Kazon, she had this romance with Zahir in "Darkling" which made her be late for work and she did run into that forcefield without thinking in "Sacred Ground" if we now should nit-pick all her faults and mistakes.
But I see no point in doing so because it wouldn't convince those who already have made up their minds that Kes was a bad character. If Kes have had some of the flaws which are mentioned about some of the other characters, then she would surely be criticized for that, for how irresponsible she acted there and how her mistake lead to this and that and she would be criticized for that too. Whatever she had did during her three years on Voyager it would be criticized because it's necssary to find reasons for why she was being "annihilated" from the show. And if there are no reasons to find for the character, then the actress is criticized.
On this forum, Kes will lose whatsoever.
And Voyager 2004, try to come up with something of your own instead of playing cheerleader to others who criticizes Kes.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:15 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Well, Kes did get into trouble when she left the Ocampa underground city which lead her to be captured by the Kazon, |
Background only. The only evidence we saw was her with a bruise on her face. She was remarkably unscarred by the abuse.
| Quote: | | she had this romance with Zahir in "Darkling" which made her be late for work |
Well, if there'd been some repercussions from that for herself or someone else, it might be worth including. But there weren't. Let's face it, being late for work once doesn't exactly rank up there with the Doc's blunder in "Retrospect" in terms of actions and consequences.
| Quote: | | and she did run into that forcefield without thinking in "Sacred Ground" |
A perfect example of a character trait being used as a plot device with no consequences for Kes. She was curious, she got zapped--but it was *Janeway* who grew as a character. Kes was simply a victim who got rescued by the captain. It was Janeway who had to put aside her preconceived notions and go on faith.
| Quote: | | if we now should nit-pick all her faults and mistakes. |
*sigh* It's the faults and mistakes that drive the plot and make a character interesting. It's what they learn that leads them to grow.
| Quote: | | If Kes have had some of the flaws which are mentioned about some of the other characters, then she would surely be criticized for that, for how irresponsible she acted there and how her mistake lead to this and that and she would be criticized for that too. |
Her actions would be criticized and debated, yes. The same way we debate Janeway's actions in "Tuvix" or Chakotay's in "One Small Step." We debate because there's two sides to the story, and we see both perspectives.
| Quote: | | Whatever she had did during her three years on Voyager it would be criticized because it's necssary to find reasons for why she was being "annihilated" from the show. |
What my examples have proven does support TPTB's stance, yes. Kes was too perfect, there were no repercussions to her in the rare event she did make a mistake. They had nowhere to go with her character.
| Quote: | | And Voyager 2004, try to come up with something of your own instead of playing cheerleader to others who criticizes Kes. |
So, it's okay for you to cheer someone who makes a post you agree with, but not for the rest of us?
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