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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:26 pm |
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No. The episode NEVER said the Borg were destroyed. Something as important as that would not be left so ambiguous. They pretty much left it to our personal imagination as to what truly happened to the Borg.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:35 pm |
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| JupiterPrime wrote: | Adm. Janeway infected the hive with an anti-borg (if you will) cyber-pathogen which propgated through the entire collective when the queen assimilated her.
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Yes. That's exactly what happened. The Pathogen, originally created by Icheb's people as seen in Season 6, was used on the Borg. It then proceeded to spread through the Collective.
| Admiral Daniel wrote: | | Wikipedia wrote: | | The virus quickly spreads throughout the collective |
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You clearly posted something that said that the Virus spread throughout the collective. It would have said MOST of the collective if it didn't mean ALL of the collective.
| Founder wrote: | | They pretty much left it to our personal imagination as to what truly happened to the Borg. |
And alot of our personal imaginations say that the Borg are done for...at least for the future. I mean, there's really no way that they weren't destroyed. It's all in the episode clearly. Yes, a tad vague, but by piecing together the events of the episode, and a little bit of common sense...we come to the conclusion that the Borg are essentially no more.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:00 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | No. The episode NEVER said the Borg were destroyed. Something as important as that would not be left so ambiguous. They pretty much left it to our personal imagination as to what truly happened to the Borg. |
They clearly said that it would spread throughout the collective. We saw the effects of the virus on the hub. Logically speaking, that's what would happen to the rest of the collective. It wasn't ambiguous.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:21 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | No. The episode NEVER said the Borg were destroyed. Something as important as that would not be left so ambiguous. They pretty much left it to our personal imagination as to what truly happened to the Borg. |
They clearly said that it would spread throughout the collective. We saw the effects of the virus on the hub. Logically speaking, that's what would happen to the rest of the collective. It wasn't ambiguous. |
No, it was never shown. Just because they THOUGHT it would spread through the Collective, doesn't mean it did as a fact. That could just be them being overconfident. The Borg have known to adapt. I'm sure some Borg survived. I'm not saying this wasn't a crippling blow but the end of the Borg? No. Again, they would have shown dozens of Cubes blowing up, other hubs blowing up, the destruction of the Borg Collective. They don't show that. They only imply that it PROBABLY would. That is ambiguous.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:08 am |
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I think it makes more sense to go by what was said in the episode (and previous episodes about the Borg), as well as what was shown than about what they "thought" and what could have happened. But whatever floats your boat.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Admiral Dani�l
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:57 am |
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| Wikipedia wrote: | | killing billions of Borg |
Is that ALL Borg... NO. And btw the Borg can start easily over by assimilating weak species then assimilate stronger then they will regain their strength as they were. The reason they cant be eliminated by other species is cause they adapt to them. So they can easily start over and the threat in the Delta Quadrant has returned. Dont tell me a single weak ship can kill all borg with one single virus... The Borg wouldve find a way to adapt to it. Or get rid of it.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:54 am |
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Not even the Borg can adapt that quickly. They didn't adapt to the torpedoes in time, nor the armor. And they had more than a few minutes. So would they be able to adapt to a virus within a few seconds?
And how exactly do you know how many Borg there are? As far as I know, it's never been stated. Perhaps there are only billions, not trillions. Billions is mroe likely, anyway. And ANYBODY can write a wikipedia article, it isn't a real source.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Admiral Dani�l
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:57 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | Not even the Borg can adapt that quickly. They didn't adapt to the torpedoes in time, nor the armor. And they had more than a few minutes. So would they be able to adapt to a virus within a few seconds?
And how exactly do you know how many Borg there are? As far as I know, it's never been stated. Perhaps there are only billions, not trillions. Billions is mroe likely, anyway. And ANYBODY can write a wikipedia article, it isn't a real source. |
... I have no words for that...
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:17 pm |
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Well there is always the possibility of that sub-collective that Chakotay was stranded with for a few days that hotwired him to them briefly in order to "collectively" heal him. They were outside the normal collective so it would stand to reason that they would have been untouched by the cyber-pathogen, and if the borg ever needed to be brought back, they could use them as a basis - but it would be a weak basis at best.
As for the ongoing discussion, I would have to say no....the borg collective would not have been able to react quickly enough to adapt - they receive their orders from the queen hive mind and they carry it out upon receipt - it was dispersed by the queen and would the be equivalent of simultaneous order to all borg everywhere to self destruct....just as when a single borg encounters a new attack to his person, he transmits the data to the hive and hive analyzes it and comes up with a way to adapt to it and then that information is sent out to ALL borg everywhere simultaneously thorugh subspace - much in the same way if the Picard algorhythm were given to Hugh, it would have caused a system wide overload and shut down in a matter of days or whatever timeframe was mentioned.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:14 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I think it makes more sense to go by what was said in the episode (and previous episodes about the Borg), as well as what was shown than about what they "thought" and what could have happened. But whatever floats your boat. |
No where in the episode did they say that the Borg are destroyed. So there is nothing to go from. Memory Alpha says this...
| Quote: | | It is unknown, at this time, whether the destruction went further then that particular transwarp hub. The Queen apparently issued a destruct order to stop the spread of the pathogen. Hence, the effects may have been limited successfully to that single facility. |
Source: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Neurolytic_pathogen
Memory Alpha takes in only canon information. If something as important as the Borg's destruction happened, it would not have been left to some line in the episode.
Also...isn't this topic about the new movie? I just realized that when I clicked it. 
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:48 am |
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| Admiral Daniel wrote: | And btw the Borg can start easily over by assimilating weak species then assimilate stronger then they will regain their strength as they were. The reason they cant be eliminated by other species is cause they adapt to them. So they can easily start over and the threat in the Delta Quadrant has returned. Dont tell me a single weak ship can kill all borg with one single virus... The Borg wouldve find a way to adapt to it. Or get rid of it.
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They can't start over if they're destroyed... 
Not to mention that the borg were first introduced to the virus by Icheb's people long before season six took place, because that's when we got the borg kids, and that's the same season that we learned of the Virus. So if the Borg couldn't adapt to the virus in more than 2 years, then they CERTAINLY couldn't have adapted to the virus in a few seconds... 
| Founder wrote: | Memory Alpha takes in only canon information. If something as important as the Borg's destruction happened, it would not have been left to some line in the episode.
Also...isn't this topic about the new movie? I just realized that when I clicked it. |
While I would believe that Memory-Alpha does only take canon info, where did they get it? Why isn't it posted on startrek.com, the official Star Trek Site? And as the producers have put it, "if it's seen on screen, it's canon...all other possiblities unless told otherwise is speculation."
Now, after reading what Memory Alpha says, I could understand that the Queen would order the self destruct, because the camera after all did focus on her before showing the Unicomplex's destruction. But she did after all say "Sphere 634. They can still hear my thoughts." That, to me, implies that she lost alot of communication with other vessels, and that sphere was far from the Unicomplex. So that still tells me that the spread was rapid and uncontrollable, and the resulting destruction of the Unicomplex/collective altogether, was the mere inoperability of the ship's functions and such and a contamination into their perfect "society."
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Admiral Dani�l
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:44 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | Admiral Daniel wrote: | And btw the Borg can start easily over by assimilating weak species then assimilate stronger then they will regain their strength as they were. The reason they cant be eliminated by other species is cause they adapt to them. So they can easily start over and the threat in the Delta Quadrant has returned. Dont tell me a single weak ship can kill all borg with one single virus... The Borg wouldve find a way to adapt to it. Or get rid of it.
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They can't start over if they're destroyed...
Not to mention that the borg were first introduced to the virus by Icheb's people long before season six took place, because that's when we got the borg kids, and that's the same season that we learned of the Virus. So if the Borg couldn't adapt to the virus in more than 2 years, then they CERTAINLY couldn't have adapted to the virus in a few seconds...
| Founder wrote: | Memory Alpha takes in only canon information. If something as important as the Borg's destruction happened, it would not have been left to some line in the episode.
Also...isn't this topic about the new movie? I just realized that when I clicked it. |
While I would believe that Memory-Alpha does only take canon info, where did they get it? Why isn't it posted on startrek.com, the official Star Trek Site? And as the producers have put it, "if it's seen on screen, it's canon...all other possiblities unless told otherwise is speculation."
Now, after reading what Memory Alpha says, I could understand that the Queen would order the self destruct, because the camera after all did focus on her before showing the Unicomplex's destruction. But she did after all say "Sphere 634. They can still hear my thoughts." That, to me, implies that she lost alot of communication with other vessels, and that sphere was far from the Unicomplex. So that still tells me that the spread was rapid and uncontrollable, and the resulting destruction of the Unicomplex/collective altogether, was the mere inoperability of the ship's functions and such and a contamination into their perfect "society." |
You just want your weak Voyager to be safe for the Borg 
-------signature-------
We are the Borg
You will be assimilated
Your Technological and Biological distinctiveness will be added to ours.
Resistance is Futile
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"Resistance is and always will be FUTILE"
-Locutus, Star Trek Armada.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:22 pm |
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^Thanks, I was meaning to do that...
Anyways, I don't really know what to think of this yet, My problem is, is that He admits that dispite having all the treks on DVD, he has really only watched TOS and TNG, didnt care for the rest... so what will that mean? ENT/DS9/VOY Ignored?
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Admiral Dani�l
Dutch Admiral
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2177
Location: Borg Cube 31572 - Join us now!
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| Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:47 am |
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How rude  those give a better view of Starfleet in whole, only TOS and TNG and ignore the others... that's just sick
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Untitled
Commander
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 396
Location: abandoned
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:46 am |
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Can't they let ST breathe for a bit before going on to the next project. You see this is why I think Enterprise died (partically), too much exposure. We've had ST for 20 some odd years straight...wait a few years...then try again.
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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:38 pm |
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| Untitled wrote: | | Can't they let ST breathe for a bit before going on to the next project. You see this is why I think Enterprise died (partically), too much exposure. We've had ST for 20 some odd years straight...wait a few years...then try again. |
I 100% agree with you there. Also one of the reasons Nemesis bombed at the box office
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:31 pm |
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Well, that and expectations. People went in to Nemesis expecting the Wrath of Kahn, only with Romulans, instead we get a showdown between clones. Don't get me wrong, good movie, but I can see why people were upset. Not to mention the Minor (Yes, Minor) violations (Picard having a Cadet picture with no hair? TNG showed he had hair then. How about crusher knowing him then? She was like...3?)
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:12 pm |
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Indeed there are some inconsistencies in Nemesis, but I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed it and continue to enjoy it every time I see it. It's one of my personal favorites, though that could be because it was the only one I ever saw in theatres and there could be some sort of tie to that, I don't know. But I liked it.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:15 pm |
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I was really happy with Nemesis, "inconsistencies" and all. I hated ENT. I still hate ENT. And I would hate a Kirk/Spock film more. But by the look of the artwork, that's where it's going. If they really make that movie, then it's just the last nail in the coffin... trek will be dead.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:21 pm |
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Nemesis was good, so was ENT syd! /pokes. This annoys me about ENT, really. I researched many 'inconsistancies' about ENT, and there were some (Hell, VOY did it, DS9 did it, TNG did it), but many of the Major ones? pfft, all stuff from books, which Production said before TNG started that books don't matter. People don't seem to get that.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:57 pm |
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Just great. It's now been confirmed that the movie will be taking place during and about the younger days of Kirk and Spock, and it's now scheduled for a Christmas release. I'm excited for a new Trek movie, but I'm really disappointed in this.
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/news/article/45415.html
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:01 pm |
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Not to sound rude, I made a new topic and stickied it, as this is old, some of those things I believe are already discussed in that topic. Please continue there, thanks.
Locked.
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