| What was done with the future technology? |
| Starfleet kept it and applied it to all new ships |
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34% |
[ 9 ] |
| Starfleet kept it, but only study it, don't use it |
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15% |
[ 4 ] |
| S31 kept it and are prepared to unleash it if needed |
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30% |
[ 8 ] |
| They immediatly destroyed it, not wanting to pollute the timeline |
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11% |
[ 3 ] |
| Other |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:28 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | | Yeah, maybe the new ships, the stuff that was compatible. But... you'd think the flagship of the fleet would still get it... |
I agree. Even in the books, yes not canon, they don't mention it. I think everyone wants to forget that CRAP Endgame made. It is filled with flaws.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:29 pm |
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Yeah... It is, but that's what happens when you wait untill the last minute to write the episode (Which the writer did)
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:17 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | | Yeah, maybe the new ships, the stuff that was compatible. But... you'd think the flagship of the fleet would still get it... |
Not necessarily...wouldn't you want to test new technology on something other than the flagship? Make sure it works. Work out the flaws and bugs first...I mean, yes Voyager was successfully equipped with it, but as pointed out, it might not be very compatible with other ships of that era. So test it on just some random Sovereign class and NOT risk the life of their beloved captain and crew...makes sense to me...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:25 pm |
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Well, if it's over a year later and their still testing tech that they know works....
Besides, there's not that much differnce in the technology between an Intrepid Class ship, and a Soveriegn class ship.
It'd be smart to write that it was destroyed, but writers have a tendancy to do things that only piss fans off, so...
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:29 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | Well, if it's over a year later and their still testing tech that they know works....
Besides, there's not that much differnce in the technology between an Intrepid Class ship, and a Soveriegn class ship.
It'd be smart to write that it was destroyed, but writers have a tendancy to do things that only piss fans off, so... |
Just because you know something works doesn't mean you can replicate it safely.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Sam Kenobi
Not a Duke
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 10373
Location: The 'Verse
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| Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:56 pm |
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I hink... "thank god" for the almighty prime directive, the nerds probably thought they were doing society and the Federation a favor by destroying it. Wouldn't want to help humanity and the rest of the galaxy early, would we? No... that would be bad.... 
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:11 pm |
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| Sam Kenobi wrote: | | I hink... "thank god" for the almighty prime directive, the nerds probably thought they were doing society and the Federation a favor by destroying it. Wouldn't want to help humanity and the rest of the galaxy early, would we? No... that would be bad.... |
Or maybe...it would have BAD effects as I pointed out earlier. Again, it isn't as simplistic as you're making it out to be...
| Quote: | | Just because you know something works doesn't mean you can replicate it safely. |
True....
So is the general consensus that Starfleet kept it, but only to study it?
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:58 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Quote: | | Just because you know something works doesn't mean you can replicate it safely. |
True....
So is the general consensus that Starfleet kept it, but only to study it? |
I concur...but I must add to "only to study" that it would make sense to release the technology, much later in the timeline, at the approximate time of development in the first place...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Sam Kenobi
Not a Duke
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 10373
Location: The 'Verse
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:21 am |
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So what happens if say, hypothetically, we're living by Starfleet guidelines right now. The US, or the world, or whatever. Say some miracle happens and someone comes back in time with the cure for cancer? Starfleet and the prime directive dictate that because it would corrupt the timeline, we shouldn't use that technology. Now, maybe a captain or a single individual wouldn't do it, but sure as hell Starfleet as an organization and rule would have to get rid of it somehow. To them the future counts as "the many" and the present counts as "the few." Which in some respects is true, but when it comes down to something that could greatly benefit the present but might change a future that we don't even know about, it shouldn't hold true.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:27 am |
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| Sam Kenobi wrote: | | So what happens if say, hypothetically, we're living by Starfleet guidelines right now. The US, or the world, or whatever. Say some miracle happens and someone comes back in time with the cure for cancer? Starfleet and the prime directive dictate that because it would corrupt the timeline, we shouldn't use that technology. Now, maybe a captain or a single individual wouldn't do it, but sure as hell Starfleet as an organization and rule would have to get rid of it somehow. To them the future counts as "the many" and the present counts as "the few." Which in some respects is true, but when it comes down to something that could greatly benefit the present but might change a future that we don't even know about, it shouldn't hold true. |
It depends, what effect would it have? Would it ONLY cure cancer patients and thats that? Is time so simplistic?
What is it cures a future Hitler who goes onto murder billions of people and takes over the world, reshaping it in his image, thus destroying the peachy future the Fed. captain came from? He could have been stopped by the cancer...
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:31 am |
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Haha...I like both of your approaches...
According to what Starfleet has set up, then no, the cure for cancer would and should not be distributed until it was time to be discovered...at which point it would be difficult to NOT distribute it because it would cure so many...
And I like Founder's approach, because it's very realistic. What if it does help save the life of another "Hitler?" And if not the life of the currently living "future Hitler," then it may save the life of his mother or someone...
I would have to say NO to distributing it. Only because of the timeline...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Sam Kenobi
Not a Duke
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 10373
Location: The 'Verse
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:57 am |
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tell that to ALL of the other tens of thousands of cancer patients. How are you going to get away with it by saying "hey, there's this chance that we might cure someone who will grow up to be bad." What? People turn out bad? And because it already happens we can't cure this disease that's eating up our world? I find Starfleet's approach ridiculous. We (they) need to be more concerned with the present and how they build their own future before taking so many precautions about what kind of sort of might or might not happen in the so so distant future. Deal with the now and the later will turn out how it was supposed to be.
Now, if that someone comes from the future, what will happen to their timeline if we do something different in our present/their past? First of all, if it's something so pressing as curing cancer or avoiding Borg invasion, the person probably came from their future with that intent in mind becaues there's something in our future/their present that needs to be changed from the past.
What if (again hypothetically) someone went back in time from now to the time before the Civil War and said "hey, we need to do something about this slavery thing, it's ruining our country and morals and people in the future?" I mean, it's a long shot, but it's the same kind of deal.
Now, I agree that Janeway shouldn't have gotten away with it. I think hers was a rather selfish reason for changing the timeline and she should have known that, especially being the person of upstanding morals that she put on the front of being. A hanging is a good idea.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:08 am |
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I said my reason for not giving the cure would be because of the timeline. I didn't say because he could have been stopped by the disease...I just said it made sense. But there's no way of possibly knowing that fact, so that's why I didn't factor that reason into my judgment.
Now, I'd pretty much be all for distributing the cure of cancer. But at the same time, some how or another that we don't understand, is that finding the cure, and discovering it on our own, but be a pivotal turning point in our world. But if that cure is just handed to us then that turning point will cease to be.
I understand that may sound stupid, but it's true. I think at least. Like I said, we obviously don't know or understand what that turning point would/could be, but what if it's there and it only happened if we DISCOVERED it...instead of having it handed to us...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Sam Kenobi
Not a Duke
Joined: 13 Jun 2003
Posts: 10373
Location: The 'Verse
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:13 am |
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No, I understand. We don't know if the cure came from some future live test subject laboratory or what. All I'm saying is, if I was handed that means to cure it, I would distribute it. Because of that, say we avoided having all those future test subjects tested on just by curing them in the past. I'm saying I wouldn't give up an opportunity like that just because there's a possibility something I haven't seen might change. I'd rather take the risk, but that's just a personal thing.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:37 am |
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| Sam Kenobi wrote: | tell that to ALL of the other tens of thousands of cancer patients. How are you going to get away with it by saying "hey, there's this chance that we might cure someone who will grow up to be bad." What? People turn out bad? And because it already happens we can't cure this disease that's eating up our world? I find Starfleet's approach ridiculous. We (they) need to be more concerned with the present and how they build their own future before taking so many precautions about what kind of sort of might or might not happen in the so so distant future. Deal with the now and the later will turn out how it was supposed to be.
Now, if that someone comes from the future, what will happen to their timeline if we do something different in our present/their past? First of all, if it's something so pressing as curing cancer or avoiding Borg invasion, the person probably came from their future with that intent in mind becaues there's something in our future/their present that needs to be changed from the past.
What if (again hypothetically) someone went back in time from now to the time before the Civil War and said "hey, we need to do something about this slavery thing, it's ruining our country and morals and people in the future?" I mean, it's a long shot, but it's the same kind of deal.
Now, I agree that Janeway shouldn't have gotten away with it. I think hers was a rather selfish reason for changing the timeline and she should have known that, especially being the person of upstanding morals that she put on the front of being. A hanging is a good idea. |
Again, you're simplifying it.
First of all, NO I would not stop slavery or the Civil War. We came out of it ok didn't we? Stopping it might mess up what we currently have.
As for the "Hey everyone, we can't cure cancer victims now cause one person might be evil". It's not a simple matter of one person being evil. It's a matter of our very future being put into jeapordy. Hello? Did you hear what I said the repurcussions might be? I do feel for the people who have cancer, my uncle does. Which is why this is such a hard choice to make. I'm fine with distrubuting the cure, but a lot of precautions MUST be made.
As for the future technology...
At this point, the Federation is recovering from the Dominion war. They cant afford another war. What if the Romulans saw them arming thier ships with this technology? They'd be like "WTF? They're arming themselves with WEAPONRY from the future. If they decided to eliminate any "threats" they'd annihilate us." So the Rommies attack Earth and we're plunged into another war. ALL because we didn't excercise caution with the timeline.
OR
How about a starship captain was meant to die which would lead to a better future for the Federation? Like the Enterprise-C was? What if she lived and the entire history changed as a result? She survived because her ship had suped up tech...
Janeway selfishly changed the timeline and who knows? Maybe she wiped out tons of people. What about the people in the Delta quadrant that Janeway was supposed to help later on? Screw them I guess...
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:48 am |
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ENDGAME really makes a mess of things and violates its issues with the "Grandfather Paradox"...the one that states "what would happen if I went back in time, found my Grandfather, and killed him? then I couldnt possibly be born to go back in time to kill him, which means he lives, and I get born and CAN go back, and etc, etc..."
Old Janeway which made it back to Earth on their proper schedule 10 years later, goes back to give yound Janeway the tech she needs to get home sooner. So now they are home sooner, meaning that when young Janeway gets old, Old Janeway has no reason to go back to help Young Janeway, which means Young Janeway and crew return home in 10 years time WITHOUT the future tech...which Starfleet MUST now invent in order for this old Janeway to steal and HAVE TO GO BACK in order to ensure that they do make it back early....meaning that Starfleet took what Young Janeway brought back from the future and reverse-engineered it and it took them up to 20 years to do so
Janeway has obliterated her and her ship and crew's own causality and are effectively stuck in a loop, all going under the assumption that time is linear, and not divergent into alternate temporal realities, in which case a new alternate temporal reality begins the moment Old Janeway went back.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:57 am |
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Wrong jupiterprime.
The star trek universe is a multiverse. Which mean there are different dimensions. Whenever someone goes back in time another dimension is formed, their own(with the universe just continueing only without them) and a new one that has the "original" timeline untill the point the person arrives. The original timeline without the timetravelling taking place would still exist as well.
Same goes for future travel.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:14 am |
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| lionhead wrote: | Wrong jupiterprime.
The star trek universe is a multiverse. Which mean there are different dimensions. Whenever someone goes back in time another dimension is formed, their own(with the universe just continueing only without them) and a new one that has the "original" timeline untill the point the person arrives. The original timeline without the timetravelling taking place would still exist as well.
Same goes for future travel. |
Very accurate. I agree with you. I was about to put the same thing, but you described it a little better than I could have... 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:16 am |
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I only said that it was an ASSUMPTION that time is linear, and NOT divergent....until such time as we can time travel, there is really no way to know.
The above is only ONE possibility and is an easy way of explaining it all and tidying everything up, however it still eaves the issue that Voyager is now home early with technology from the future which makes a new causaility for FUTURE events from that point forward....IF time is linear, Starfleet MUST now "invent" this technology
If not, then there really was no need for episodes such as "The Year of Hell" which basically proved the point of the paradox....an event occurred and no amount of change to history could possibly alter it - apparently and especially if you were the reason that event occurred in the first place, because you are no longer in the same "dimension" as the orginal target event, once you instigate the first change
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:30 am |
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And further, how does that explain Kirk and Spock correcting the damage done by the heavilly medicated McCoy that went to the past in City on teh Edge of Forever? He went back, altered an event, changed history, which means there is a new "dimension". Kirk and Spock went back and managed to set everything right again - by all accounts of the temporal mechanics that allow ENDGAME to function, Kirk and Spock should not have been able to succeed in City on the Edge of Forever, as they would have been derailed into another dimensional reality the moment McCoy went back alone.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:07 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | Wrong jupiterprime.
The star trek universe is a multiverse. Which mean there are different dimensions. Whenever someone goes back in time another dimension is formed, their own(with the universe just continueing only without them) and a new one that has the "original" timeline untill the point the person arrives. The original timeline without the timetravelling taking place would still exist as well.
Same goes for future travel. |
No...THATS wrong.
It was never established that multiverses are created. When Admiral Janeway went back in time and helped captain Janeway. The moment the VOY got back to Earth that early, the original timeline ceases to exist. Hello? If the original timeline would always exist, why would the Federation freak out about affecting the timeline? If all it did was allow them to STILL exist and form another universe, then what would be the problem? NO, it ERASES their timeline. The other universes that exist are not a result of people making them. They simply exist just like "our" universe does and run's it's own course.
As for JupiterPrime....
There is no real paradox here. Admiral Janeway went back int time. Gave future technology to Janeway. Janeway makes it back home. Thats it. There are going to be repurcussions, but not in the way you think. the new Admiral Janeway doesn't have to go back in time and give herself the future technology. It's already been done. It doesn't have to be done repeatedly.
As for the ridiculous grandfather paradox, that's complete crap. Has anyone gone back in time and tested it? NOPE. Thus, that is a mere theory. What could happen with that is, you go back, kill your grandfather and both HE dies and you blink out of existance. That's it.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:15 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | It was never established that multiverses are created. When Admiral Janeway went back in time and helped captain Janeway. The moment the VOY got back to Earth that early, the original timeline ceases to exist. Hello? If the original timeline would always exist, why would the Federation freak out about affecting the timeline? If all it did was allow them to STILL exist and form another universe, then what would be the problem? NO, it ERASES their timeline. The other universes that exist are not a result of people making them. They simply exist just like "our" universe does and run's it's own course. |
Hmm...I agree...I mean the multiverse idea makes sense, but as I read your post it makes sense...why WOULD the Federation freak out if they just created another timeline? You're right. Because, (as pointed out by Stargate SG-1) there are an infinite number of dimensions. Each more or less different than the one that we're experiencing. And when Janeway went back in time to help the younger crew, she couldn't have created another one. She just altered her own timeline...her own dimension. But according to Stargate, there is another dimension, not so much timeline, where Admiral Janeway did NOT go back in time to save the crew...
I was getting lionhead's idea of Multiverse and the "dimensions" confused...I think I've got it now...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:05 am |
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| JupiterPrime wrote: | | And further, how does that explain Kirk and Spock correcting the damage done by the heavilly medicated McCoy that went to the past in City on teh Edge of Forever? He went back, altered an event, changed history, which means there is a new "dimension". Kirk and Spock went back and managed to set everything right again - by all accounts of the temporal mechanics that allow ENDGAME to function, Kirk and Spock should not have been able to succeed in City on the Edge of Forever, as they would have been derailed into another dimensional reality the moment McCoy went back alone. |
who says they didn't create a third dimension with that action? Considdering the fatc that once you time travelled you make a different dimension evey timetravelling action that is performed afterwards just makes another one.
The "original" timeline is the one without any timetravelling involved. I agree you don't know i it doesn't still exist. But there is just as much chance it stilll exist as it doesn't.
| Quote: | | It was never established that multiverses are created. When Admiral Janeway went back in time and helped captain Janeway. The moment the VOY got back to Earth that early, the original timeline ceases to exist. Hello? If the original timeline would always exist, why would the Federation freak out about affecting the timeline? If all it did was allow them to STILL exist and form another universe, then what would be the problem? NO, it ERASES their timeline. The other universes that exist are not a result of people making them. They simply exist just like "our" universe does and run's it's own course. |
Indeed yuo are right, Starfleet wouldn't have to freak out if they still existed, but they are scared of it becasue events changed could destroy the timeline so much that a dimesnion could be formed where the universe is lie a living hell.
A Linear timeline to my opinion is impossible, since then JupiterPrimes explanation is correct, if you travel back in time and the future will be erased then you don't exist anymore and you stopped yourself from timetravelling thus deleting you from existance.
Considdering certain events the universe we ar watching in Voyager is far beyond the "original" timeline. With that i mean the time travelling of TOS, TNG, the doctors new mobile emitter, One(that advanced borg drone)
Its strange though, the movie First Contact and the ENT temporal cold war totally contradict eahother.
In the movie First contact the star trek universe IS linear, as the borgs actions overwrite that of the original timeline. But in TNG i don�t remember them saying anything about what cochrane says about the "Cybernetic organisms". However in ENT they do, as if the ENT universe was formed as a result of the events in First Contact.
In the temporal cold war yuo definitly see signs of new dimensions formed and in one universe the Germans got all the way into the US(with help of time travelling aliens) while the other stays the same(as that guy who warns Archer all the time still exists and the enterprise itself does too).
It could be so that the Enterprise went back into the future without knowing that they where actually travelling towards another dimension, a dimension where the events of ENT happened.... Or did they?
You see, the fact Enterprises interference in the future doesn't have any impact on the future is just amazing since so much as happened that it almost impossible to believe everybody was born as they supposed to, even though things on earth have changed(those buildings that where destroyed by the Borg, don't know if people died.)
I remember 1 epiode from TNG where Enterprise was introduced to a whole fleet of enterprises all from other dimensions.... Does anyone recall?
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:42 am |
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| lionhead wrote: | | but they are scared of it becasue events changed could destroy the timeline so much that a dimesnion could be formed where the universe is lie a living hell. |
But a dimension wouldn't be formed. They are afraid of the events in THEIR timeline being changed. Not that of another timeline (aka, alternate dimension). They don't want THEIR timeline altered. Now, yes, with every small decision made by every individual in the universe, it branches off into alternate realities where the same person in a different reality made the opposite decision and such. And it just branches off infinitily changing everything about that alternate reality's universe.
But the Federation isn't worried about that. They're worried about keeping THEIR timeline in tact. The ONE and ONLY that we've been watching (with the exception of the couple of mirror universe episodes...but that's different. Just episode ideas and plot fillers...)
| Quote: | It could be so that the Enterprise went back into the future without knowing that they where actually travelling towards another dimension, a dimension where the events of ENT happened.... Or did they?
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I'm all for reading into Star Trek, but that's just reading too far. Everything we've seen on Trek thus far, from TOS to Voyager, and then back around to Enterprise, all takes place in ONE reality. One timeline... It's just easier that way. Otherwise you have to think about what reality did this, and what dimension did that. Trek has a hard enough time keeping the timeline true to itself, let alone different realities, and whether or not a ship and crew returned to the proper reality. It's best assumed that the crew always returns to the SAME reality, but with a changed/different FUTURE timeline, which is still in the works of being created because it's not completely clear or written out...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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JupiterPrime
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:07 am |
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| Founder wrote: |
As for the ridiculous grandfather paradox, that's complete crap. Has anyone gone back in time and tested it? NOPE. Thus, that is a mere theory. What could happen with that is, you go back, kill your grandfather and both HE dies and you blink out of existance. That's it. |
Well of course its a theory, because at present there is no way to test it. Actually I should have elaborated a little bit more on it and said "Went back to before he was married and sired my father..."
but thats the key....if I blink out of existence, meaning I would have never existed, my G-Pop wouldnt have died then becasue I never went back to kill him.....so he lives, and ultimately I am born.....
aahh screw it - this all gives me a headache
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