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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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 Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:10 pm |
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Alright. I'm sorry. I know, I vowed not to post in this topic, again, however, I had to say I'm sorry. What are you, then? 'Cause, you're views sound Republican to me.
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You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:16 pm |
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Independent, I would say, but yeah...You're way off base, La Forge. To say that Republicans unconditionally support everything the President does is just ludicrous. I mean, look at illegal immigration, spending, Dubai Ports, and Harriet Miers, to name a few. I'm a Republican, and I've critiqued him one way or another on those issues. So, yeah. Such generalizations are extremely off base.
Secondly, never going to change the mind of a Republican? What? For a time I was quite unsupportive of Israel thanks to my friend, who changed my mind. Given I'm a supporter of them now, but I wasn't up until this past week. My opinions have also shifted on abortion, civil unions, and several other issues.
Anyways, you don't have to be sentient to be alive, human or not.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:18 pm |
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| La Forge wrote: | | Alright. I'm sorry. I know, I vowed not to post in this topic, again, however, I had to say I'm sorry. What are you, then? 'Cause, you're views sound Republican to me. |
I am independent...there are aspects of both the Democrat and Republican parties that I cannot agree with. I am admittedly conservative on issues like gay unions, abortion, embryonic stem cells, and other moral issues. But, on economic issues and foreign policy issues, I can tend to run more on what would be considered liberal....
Anyways, I better stop posting in here too before I get myself in trouble  .
Edit:
Let's allllll get back on topic also. RM, La Forge, and me.
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:24 pm |
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How can you justify putting a few dozen embryo's ahead of the millions of people who could be saved from their diesease or paralysis if we put money into this?
| Puck wrote: | | By killing 400,000 children (the estimated number of frozen embryos across the US) in order to help? |
You know they will never utilize every embryo. Some of the donors would refuse to give them up. They would share your beliefs. And I, like La Forge, am leaving this topic, as I will never be convinced by anyone else's arguement, and will most likely not convince any one else.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:57 pm |
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| WeAz wrote: | | How can you justify putting a few dozen embryo's ahead of the millions of people who could be saved from their diesease or paralysis if we put money into this? |
There are a lot more than a few dozen embryos there  And it has already been justified by the statement that embryos are human life. Justification has already been established by Puck and LightningBoy.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:08 am |
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Its an opinion that Embryo's are human life. Not a fact. I'm not gonna comment on that further, as I know we are not gonna be able to convince each other. And utilizing those embryo's for a good purpose is not murder.
I'll let Jon Stewart speak for me on this.
| Jon Stewart wrote: | | The President said, 'I do not condone the taking of innocent life, to save life'. But you can also say that that is the exact justification of the Iraqi war? |
Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRXN1AGFwbA&search=Jon%20Stewart
From 5:10 to 6:15. See my point?
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:18 am |
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| WeAz wrote: | Its an opinion that Embryo's are human life. Not a fact. I'm not gonna comment on that further, as I know we are not gonna be able to convince each other. And utilizing those embryo's for a good purpose is not murder.
I'll let Jon Stewart speak for me on this.
| Jon Stewart wrote: | | The President said, 'I do not condone the taking of innocent life, to save life'. But you can also say that that is the exact justification of the Iraqi war? |
Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRXN1AGFwbA&search=Jon%20Stewart
From 5:10 to 6:15. See my point? |
How is it an opinion an embryo is human life? What is it going to be when it grows, a puppy?
And the targets in Iraq were/are the soldiers and terrorists, not their children, so that was a very stupid thing for Stewart, who is usually a fairly funny man, to say. Apples and oranges.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
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And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:51 am |
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I believe life starts at birth. Not at conception. After conception, there is potential life.
I would like to use this post to say that I am leaving STV. This forum is getting too conservative for me. I feel alone, and you guys are just hostile to my opinions.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:54 am |
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Rebutting is hostility? Well, no, but I suppose you are entitled to your opinion.
And even the medical field disagrees w/ you about the start of "life".
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:27 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | | And even the medical field disagrees w/ you about the start of "life". |
depends on who's article you're reading. There are plenty that state that an embryo is not life, but a collection of cells that could be potential life.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:42 am |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Theresa wrote: | | And even the medical field disagrees w/ you about the start of "life". |
depends on who's article you're reading. There are plenty that state that an embryo is not life, but a collection of cells that could be potential life. |
Really. A single cell organism is classified as life. That's merely textbook, not an article. Like a piece of tissue, etc...
| Quote: | The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
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dictionary.com
The opposite of life is death. Life has the ability to grow. Death doesn't. An embryo has the ability to grow.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:51 am |
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Exactly. It's simple science. Cells are classified as life, so why can't an embryo be considered life?
It may technically be a group of cells, but it's a group of human cells becoming a full-fledged human. It is life, and it is human life--human life which you are denying the first of the three inalienable rights: the right to life. You are also denying it the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Personally, I don't like doing that to an innocent human.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:41 pm |
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My main issue with it is that I'm not as optimistic about the research. *shrug* I think there are other outlets for the government to fund in drug/cure research, besides stem cells, that could work as well or better. I don't particularly mind what they're using to research. A culture is a culture. However, that's not where I want to place my argument. It's the science of it I would debate. But of course, you're not supposed to find "cures" in medicine anyway, it's bad for business don't ya' know.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:17 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: |
So the pain of thousands of people means nothing to you? Nice. |
THIS is the kind of post i've come to expect from you.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:51 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: |
Really. A single cell organism is classified as life. That's merely textbook, not an article. Like a piece of tissue, etc...
| Quote: | The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
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dictionary.com
The opposite of life is death. Life has the ability to grow. Death doesn't. An embryo has the ability to grow. |
Arguing semantics will not further this debate any.
Why?
Because I can just fire back that a embryo's closest relative is a virus. It replicates while feeding off the host (the mother), and cannot live outside the body.
Lets see some evidence that an embryo is truly alive and not a virus feeding off its host.
| Lightningboy wrote: | | THIS is the kind of post i've come to expect from you. |
I guess the truth hurts.
[edit]
I should probably clarify before I get tossed out of WN.
Your claims basically put the rights of these embryos before that of people. People with severly debilitating diseases, genetic disorders, etc. that could be helped by stem cells. People who are in constant pain.
Now many of these people are middle aged, but there are plenty of children out there, younger then either you or I. Is it fair or just to throw their lives away? To make them suffer rather then try to find a way to help them?
Stem Cells could.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:32 am |
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Let me clarify this for you. It is not right to take a human life to improve another. As stated before, it is not potential human life, it is human life with potential. If you don't see it the same way, fine; we're obviously not going to change what eachother's definition of an embryo really is.
If our definitions of human life were the same, we'd probably see eye to eye. Obviously they aren't.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:00 am |
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| Quote: | Because I can just fire back that a embryo's closest relative is a virus. It replicates while feeding off the host (the mother), and cannot live outside the body.
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That's not exactly true. Many "embryos" have been sustained by artificial means.
Embryo, fetus, etc.. were just names made for different periods of gestation. It wasn't meant to be used as an excuse to kill the life.
I could quote dictionary.com, but I'm sure that would be redundant.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:18 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | Cells are classified as life, so why can't an embryo be considered life?
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I consider embryo's life, but not human life.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:29 pm |
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But is it not a human embryo, therby making it human life?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:06 pm |
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I mean human as in it breathes, feels, and is intelligent, and sentient.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:08 pm |
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That's more of a definition of life, not humanity.
Nice to see you didn't leave, btw.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:23 pm |
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Couldn't find another forum with such good debaters. 
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:08 am |
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| Quote: | sen�tient (sĕn'shənt, -shē-ənt) pronunciation
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious |
http://www.answers.com/sentient
I am not conscious when I am sleeping, but I am pretty sure I am still human.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:10 am |
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Excellent point, Puck. If I'm knocked unconcious, does that make me any less human or alive? No, it doesn't, not one bit.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:38 pm |
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Embryo's don't feel pain. You still do if you are asleep.
And sleeping is not the same state that embryo's are in.
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