| A waste of space? |
| Yes |
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50% |
[ 14 ] |
| No |
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50% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 28 |
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StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
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 Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:41 am Kes- A waste of space? |
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Voyager is the best ever Trek, but the only thing that got to me was putting up with Jennifer Lien's terrible acting! She didn't get to do anything except get captured, near-death accidents, to make Neelix fret, etc... Whenever she did get a good role- i.e warlord, she messes it up! Does anyone agree with me?
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 8:33 am |
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Not me. I thought Kes was a great character.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:29 am Re: Kes- A waste of space? |
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| StarfleetCommand74656 wrote: | | Whenever she did get a good role- i.e warlord, she messes it up! Does anyone agree with me? |
I don't agree that she messed up Warlord...that was good episode, and some really decent acting on her part...Totally out of character for her, and it showed that she definitely has potential, but it mostly wasn't used on Voyager...yes, I'd agree alot of her performances on Voyager weren't the greatest, but she wasn't totally horrible either...she had a few good parts, but I think the best one was "Warlord."
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:01 am |
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No, she did definitely not mess up the series. In fact, Kes was the best character Voyager had and Jennifer Lien is a great actress who really gave life to the character Kes.
If we look at Star Trek and all the Trek series, I could easily give you 10-15 characters who were a waste of space and some actors too who weren't that good either. Kes did not belong to that category. She was a great character who did a lot of good things for the ship and its crew. She saved it on several occasions. Without her, Voyager would have ended up as a trophy at the Bothans or being destroyed by Suspiria.
Kes personified the spirit of Star trek with her will to learn and explore.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:28 am |
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Do you ever have anything different to say? I mean, the whole point in different TOPICS is to talk about DIFFERENT things...you just keep repeating yourself over and over in different topics...and you always claim to have "10-15 people who were a waste of space" or other such claims yet you never provide...
Please, provide us with something new from your lips...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:10 pm |
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Well, figuring that this question follows the same line of conversation as the previous Kes topic, a similar response isn't entirely out of the realm of possibilities, now is it? Let's all get over ourselves and focus on our own posts and responses. Otherwise it's spam. Thanks in advance.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:28 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | Do you ever have anything different to say? I mean, the whole point in different TOPICS is to talk about DIFFERENT things...you just keep repeating yourself over and over in different topics...and you always claim to have "10-15 people who were a waste of space" or other such claims yet you never provide...
Please, provide us with something new from your lips... |
If I'm repeating myself, then I'm not the only one. Those who don't like Kes are coming up with the same tiresome comments over and over again.
As for providing you with 10-15 characters who were really tame and uninteresting, the reason for not doing that is that I actually like most of those characters, despite their tame appearance and therefore don't want to criticize them. But if you'll request that, I can give you a list and the reasons why I find them bland and in some cases rather bad.
If you really want something new, well then I can give you this:
Kes was so incredible good that they could have created a whole series about her, exploring space and helping people in difficult and dangerous situations.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:17 pm |
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I wouldn't watch it. What would it be? Touched by a Kes in space?
She had potential, but then it just went straight to hell. After Elogium I just couldn't take her character seriously anymore.
At first, she kind of reminded me of Troi. The sympathetic one, the one w/ advice. (Even though she was two). But even that failed.
So, I guess my vote would be a waste. Of space, probably not, but definitely a waste.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:23 pm |
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I feel the same, that episod was... ODD. I am just like 0o every time I see that episode I dont watch it often actually.
A waste of space? Naw.. A waste? yeah, def.
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:25 pm |
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Lynx? I'd like to see that list, if you don't mind. I bet that you can't name 10 legitimately wasteful characters.
-------signature-------
You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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nadia
cookie
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 8560
Location: Australia
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| Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:12 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Kes was so incredible good that they could have created a whole series about her, exploring space and helping people in difficult and dangerous situations. |
You make me laugh!
Yes, I think Kes was a 'waste of space', she was so boring and never did anything that good.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:42 am |
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| La Forge wrote: | | Lynx? I'd like to see that list, if you don't mind. I bet that you can't name 10 legitimately wasteful characters. |
Well I really don't want to do that because, as I've stated before, I actually like most of those characters and this will be way out of topic but here we go:
TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either.
A good advice: Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win! 
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:45 am |
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| nadia wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | Kes was so incredible good that they could have created a whole series about her, exploring space and helping people in difficult and dangerous situations. |
You make me laugh!
Yes, I think Kes was a 'waste of space', she was so boring and never did anything that good. |
For a fan of Kes to come to this board must be like ending up in hell. 
"Oh-Oh - my eyes they see but I can't believe,
Oh - my heart is heavy as I turn my back and leave."
"Sea Of Madness"
Iron Maiden
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | | La Forge wrote: | | Lynx? I'd like to see that list, if you don't mind. I bet that you can't name 10 legitimately wasteful characters. |
Was wondering when someone was going to say that, only a matter of time 
Well I really don't want to do that because, as I've stated before, I actually like most of those characters and this will be way out of topic but here we go:
Well, the point is of asking, if you can seemingly make such a big list, do so, instead of making claims and then looks like you cannot do so.
TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
A Russian Parody? really? Sorry, but I simply don't see it. aside from the fact that he was meant as some sort of comic relief. Your analogy makes no sense... (That's not even mentioning the severe budget problems...)
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
Bland? Hard to be better then bland when your barly allowed on camera due to..ta da! budget problems. Lets not forget that some eps that centered on him were good
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
Probably because he was a 15 year old little snot that was outsmarting an entire ship with actuall expeariences, that's not even counting Data, or the Enterprise's Computer.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
A weak copy? Hardly. I don't see Crusher runing around not respcting people due to their differnces, I don't see Crusher running around going "I'll save those people from dying a HORRIBLE death!...so long as I dont have to use the transporter.
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
To much of a Mr. Nice guy? averagly just around? I guess all of those episodes where he saved the day, or how about when the entire episode was about him, don't matter? Sorry, but La Forge is one of the better chars of TNG.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
Well, not everyone can look death in the face and laugh. Considaring he watched his mother get crushed by a support beam thanks to the borg, it's an amazment that he don't crawl to a corner and suck his thumb.
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
Second hand character? not much better here? I have to wonder if your just drawing names out of a hat to see what kind of reaction you will get out of people. O'Brien was a core char in DS9, he was the station's engineer and many, many episodes of the series if not centered on him had him heavily involved
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
Read the above part. Then.. Eye Candy? Every trek series had that... it is a part of trek.
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
Hmm... I don't know, it wasn't meant to be, but Terry Ferrell wanted out, so they replaced her with Jadzia. IF you meant the eye candy thing, again... all trek has that...
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
Yeah, he was weak, but I blame the writers for that, it's not like they didn't see that after seven years we still didn't know much about him /sarcasam
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
I will continue the Eye Candy part here, because Seven (And T'Pol of ENT) recive the biggest rip for their state of dress. Like I said, this has always been a part of trek, go watch episodes of TOS, there were some episodes, where the females had tops that covered just enough so the network censors weren't going "Oh my god! she's showing her(What ever goes here)"!!![it was the 60's, there was so much to show and get in trouble for] I also find it interesting that no one ever mentions Troi and her state of dress. She didn't always wear a Starfleet Uniform
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
All of them? Did you even give them a chance? one thing I can see almost everyone agree on: The actors and chars were good. They did better with their development then in Voyager
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either.
Wasn't the whole point about this list is to show the bland chars? I suppose only listing the main chars being as some of the characters you just mentioned were in maybe 10 episodes if that many
A good advice: Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win!
What's with the talking about your self in the third person view? rather silly, was even silly when it was the 'thing' to do. Besides, I really don't see a bet that you are 'sure to win' |
And for your comment towards nadia? what was that about? So she don't like Kes, and so you quote an Iron Maiden song?.....
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:27 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Kes was so incredible good that they could have created a whole series about her, exploring space and helping people in difficult and dangerous situations. |
Are you kidding me? The reason you get responses against Kes is for comments like this.
Thats like me saying they're going to make a show about Rom and Leeta, Ferengi Trek. A show with Kes would fail with the ratings so fast that it isn't even funny.
| Lynx wrote: | TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
There are no Russian people like Chekov today? Really? No Russian person that speaks English with a thick Russian accent? Yeah...because no one has accents in this day and age. Everyone has mastered every language perfectly....
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
You could say that for every crewmen on TOS except for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, but that is simply because they focused on them more.
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
Yeah, I don't dislike him either. Well...AFTER he went to the Academy.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
Meh...
She was semi-interesting in her own way.
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
What? Geordi? What exactly was wrong with him? He had some pretty good episode. Especially the one about his mother.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
You're kidding right? Jake Sisko and Nog were the only believable children in ALL of Star Trek. How is he bland? He was charming, funny, and yes, innocent. He was a civilian, not a Starfleet officer. Not to mention, an episode that revolved around him("The Visitor"), is ranked one of the best episode in all of TREK. How many Kes episodes have that title? None.
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
O'Brien was great. His comraderie with Bashir was funny and endearing. His relationship with his family was nice. He was never meant to be an action hero. But the lay man. The all around family man. Although, he did kick Garak's butt in "Empok Nor"
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
She had the Dax symbiont. She was beautiful and funny. Worf's foil. She also wasn't the standard Starfleet officer. She played games with Ferengi and dated guys with transperent heads. She was also the best friend of Sisko.
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
Thats more of a time issue. She came in and had only one season to develop...
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
Him being the weakest is an opinion. I don't believe he was the weakest at all. Harry had some good episodes, not to mention, he was meant to be the ever optomist. No matter what, he believed they would get home. In "Endgame", when Harry is tearful at the sight of Earth was a really nice scene.
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
Annoying?
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
What? What about Archer? He wasn't "weak, bland, or cowardly" and definitly one of the coolest captains.
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either. |
As for the topic question, no, Kes was not a waste of space. I think they did fine with her. They gave her closure in the CANON episode, "Fury". That was that. I thought it was all done well.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:36 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | here we go:
TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
Do you know why Chekov was added to the series? And do you also recall that Trek was in it's infancy at the time? I'm guessing no since you added him to your list. And he merely said that anything of importance was made in Russia, as an ongoing joke... (He was meant to be more like Davey Jones anyway,  )
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
Sulu was lame. I can agree that he was a waste, maybe even a waste of space. Until STVI, possibly.
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
In the beginning, Wes was very much like Kes. All wide eyed and gushing. It was sick. He got better in the later eps, though. Something Kes failed to do.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
Pulaski as a copy of Crusher? I suppose when you try to superimpose what you think the character should do/behave like, then yeah. But if you take her as written? No.
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
Geordi had some really cool eps. It's sad that he was forced to be Data's lackey so often, though. And I suppose maybe he should've had more of an edge. Again, he was "too nice", like Kes.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
Jake was pretty cool. Having to learn to live w/out his mother, and at the same time being relocated to the 'frontier' where there was danger constantly. He fit w/ DS9 very well, as it was more of a show for intellectuals. (which makes it clear why it was so unpopular w/ some Trek fans)
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
O'Brien was good except for when we had to see him naked. *PUKE* And his complete hatred for the Cardassians made for some good shows.
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
Did you even watch DS9?
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
I didn't really care for Ezri. Though I do think her character had potential if there'd been more time for her to evolve.
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
Harry was... ick? I'd put him and Kes in the same category, actually. But at least Harry had some grit to him.
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
Seven was a good replacement for Kes.
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
So you don't like ENT. That doesn't make the characters weak. It just makes you close minded, IMO.
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either.
"To your taste"... so? That wasn't the question posed... He asked you to name ten legitimately useless characters. You failed.
A good advice: Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win!
Really... |
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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jonathan95
Delta Prime
Joined: 29 Oct 2002
Posts: 1544
Location: UK Newcastle
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:22 pm |
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without posting a hudge copy of the last 3 posts, in which he was asked to say ten people from trek that were rubbish, I certainly agree YOU failed.
I agree mostly with both Founder & Theresa which is a bit strange since they raise differant points.
but yes you have failed to list 10 people who were useless, apart from what you see yourself in trek in your opinions you have one, but so far to everybody else you've failed.
but to the Question at hand I voted yes Kes was a waste of space, due to bad script writing, the good parts she had were good in there own aspect but she could have been so much more. from the outset she was badly written.
to bring up a point that was made about Ezri Dax, the biggest reason why she was unliked is simply, she was brought right into the end and was replacing a very very good character, its little wounder most people look at Ezri and expect a Jadzia and when they didnt get that they didnt like her,
personaly if she'd been brought inm sooner and we had more time to adjust I bet a lot of vews would have been differant,
Unlike Kes, who suffered a bad start and only got a chance to shine once or twice, where there couild have been a lot more times.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:32 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: |
And for your comment towards nadia? what was that about? So she don't like Kes, and so you quote an Iron Maiden song?..... |
I did quote that Iron Maiden song because those verses describes my feelings everytime I visit this forum.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:43 pm |
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| Founder wrote: |
As for the topic question, no, Kes was not a waste of space. I think they did fine with her. They gave her closure in the CANON episode, "Fury". That was that. I thought it was all done well. |
What a nice and friendly comment! I'm sure that you did enjoy "Fury", I guess that episode was perfect for your taste.
It's funny really. I'm actually the nice guy around here!
I was very reluctant to publish the list of what I consider the weak Star Trek characters becuase I actually like them in a way, well maybe not the Enterprise crew but most of the others.
But when it comes to Kes, it's perfectly all right to bash the character and come up with provoking comments and when I reply, I'm criticized for disturbing the peace. It's a funny world..... 
As for the list, I was asked to provide a list of ca 10 more and less wasted characters.........which I did and my statement is as good as those who claim that Kes was a waste.
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Scapegoat Bob
Commodore
Joined: 02 Sep 2001
Posts: 1198
Location: The Barn
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:07 pm |
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Lynx, heeeeeeeeeere kitty kitty kitty!
Kes was great! Her hair was fantastic for napping on! And maybe leaving a few presents in?
-------signature-------
Here, kitty kitty kitty!
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Za Za Zoom
Ensign
Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Britain, Britain
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:31 pm |
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Hmmmm, Kes the character was certainly a waste of space but I don't think Jennifer Lien was a waste of space since she did OK when given the chance ("Warlord" being an good example) but I feel Ms. Lien was always wasted by the writers. It was not her fault that Kes was such an uninspired and underwhelming character. And O'Brian was cool, Lynx, with Colm Meany being one of the better actors in Trek (he's cool in dozens of other movies as well).
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:52 pm |
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| Za Za Zoom wrote: | | Hmmmm, Kes the character was certainly a waste of space but I don't think Jennifer Lien was a waste of space since she did OK when given the chance ("Warlord" being an good example) but I feel Ms. Lien was always wasted by the writers. It was not her fault that Kes was such an uninspired and underwhelming character. And O'Brian was cool, Lynx, with Colm Meany being one of the better actors in Trek (he's cool in dozens of other movies as well). |
I agree that Kes could have been better used but there were several real good episodes with Kes as the main character or one of the main characters, such as "Cold Fire", "Persistence Of Vision", "The Swarm", "Darkling" and "Tuvix".
The "writers" were sloppy in many ways but that affected all characters and the whole series.
O'Brian is cool, I do actually like him even if I consider him one of Trek's weaker characters and I agree that Colm Meaney is a very good actor. I've seen him in other movies as well.
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:01 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | La Forge wrote: | | Lynx? I'd like to see that list, if you don't mind. I bet that you can't name 10 legitimately wasteful characters. |
Well I really don't want to do that because, as I've stated before, I actually like most of those characters and this will be way out of topic but here we go:
TOS:
Chekov. A horrible character to say the least. Actually a Russian parody, As insulting to the Russians as German marching round on the bridge and screaming in bad English about the grrreatness of the federrration would have been to the Germans. I mean, you don't find such people in Russia today and definitely not in the 22th century. But walter Koenig is a good actor and Chekov did become better in the movies.
I thought Chekov was great. As mentioned before, it was the '60s. Whaddya expect? Chekov is probably my favorite TOS character.
Sulu. Pretty bland in the series, absolutely better in the movies.
Sulu was decent. As mentioned before. TOS was more of the Kirk/Spock/McCoy show. You can't expect for Sulu to be in the spotlight all of the time. Plus, George Takei was busy with other projects all of the time. "The Green Berets" anyone?
TNG:
Poor Wesley Crusher gets the vote here even if I must admit that I didn' dislike him and didn't understand the hatred to the character that many fans showed.
I disliked his character until AFTER he left for the Academy. After that, he became a decent character, especially in the episode "The First Duty". Great episode.
Pulaski. A weak copy of Dr.Crusher
While I disliked Pulaski, I wouldn't say that she is a copy of Crusher. Crusher and Pulaski were completely different doctors, as LB pointed out.
LaForge. Not so bad but too much of Mr. Nice Guy. rather average, he was just around.
*ahem* Look at the username. I don't need to say anything.
DS9:
Jake Sisko. Well, talk about a bland character. Wesley Crusher did at least have some guts.
Jake Sisko was featured in two of some of my ALL-TIME favorite Trek episodes. "The Visitor" (one of Trek's best emotional episodes ever) and "Nor the Battle to the Strong" (a gritty look at the psyche of a soldier and of the effects of war on civilians). Jake and Nog, as Founder pointed out, were some of Trek's best young adult characters, if not THE best young adult characters.
O'Brien. Second-hand character in TNG and didn't get much better here. Most of the time he was just there, looking worried.
O'Brien was a great character in both TNG and DS9. O'Brien only got better in DS9. A family-man, as Founder pointed out. O'Brien and Bashir's relationship was great, especially in the scene where the two were drunk and singing "Jerusalem".
Jadzia Dax. Now we talk about eye-candy. Not that bad but the same goes for her as for LaForge. Nice and smiling but not so much more.
Eye candy, yes. LB pointed out that every Trek series had attractive women. DS9 just had three (Jadzia, Kira, and Ezri). However...Jadzia Dax was a SUPER important character. Have you seen the show?
Ezri Dax. What did she do in the series more than replace Jadzia?
I am not the biggest Ezri fan, however, she just needed more time to develop, is all. A decent character, however, I would agree with you that she was just put in to replace Jadzia. Still, the two were completely different characters.
Voyager:
Harry Kim. The weakest of Voyager's characters. he was best when he was Paris's back-up in some episodes. Otherwise he was like an over-aged Wesley Crusher (he is much better in the Voyager books where he's actually doing something).
Yes. I'll agree with you on that one.
(No, I'm not gonna come up with Seven here. She was annoying but not bland).
Seven, huh? No.
Enterprise:
All of them, except Porthos. OK, Trip wasn't that bad but the rest......oh dear.
ENT had great characters. I've just recently started to watch the show and I think that the characters are great. Almost as good as the characters of DS9. Archer, Reed, Trip, Porthos, etc. Awesome cast.
In this list I've only listed main characters. I haven't mentioned characters like Lwxana Troi, Worf's son Alexander, Naomi Wildman, Icheb or Vorik which weren't actually my taste either.
A good advice: Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win! |
You lose.
However, I don't agree that Kes was a waste of space. Happy?
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You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:01 pm |
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Ok people... scared of an all out Kes war happening here... well, happening here without me!
Kes, Kes, Kes...
Good things about Kes:
- sometimes she actually did something in sick bay
- sometimes she saved the day with a revelation
- she showed us that even complete freaks like Neelix can have a blonde of their own
- she had super powers
- her hair changed to long and wavy after a while
- she looked cool with bruises
- she was calm, mild, peaceful and stable
- the episode when she went evil due to possesion ROCKED. I'm presuming that was called Warlord.
- she was ornamental in sick bay
Bad things about Kes:
- a lot of the time the stuff she did in sickbay could've easily been done by the EMH and was done better by Tom Paris
- Her relationship with Neelix seemed... undeveloped. Were they in love? Were they just friends? What was going on between them? Why did their relationship (even as friends) never really go anywhere?
- She hardly ever used the super powers she had. So, extreme boredom there. Is she psychic? Is she not? Telekenisis? Not?
- the bruises went away and then she just looked... tame and average
- she was a bit too mild. She never seemed to feel anything except this sort of satisfiedness. She never got worked up about things or got angry or had tantrums
- She went back to "normal" after that ep
- A statue of her would've been just as ornamental
- her ears were just crap vulcan ears. They should've been jazzed up with a few rebellious piercings or summat
- Her wardrobe was BLAND. Ok, so Neelix's was like some hideous 80s nightmare, but hers was just like... YAWN
- She had few expressions- her normal contentment (lightly smiling), brows lowered (confused), laughing.
- Might as well have been a talking parrot
Good filler material... but that's about it.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:14 am |
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| lynx wrote: | | Never make a bet with The Lynx. He only make a bet when he's absolutely sure to win! |
Really? It sure looks like you lost to me...and I don't even need to put my two-cents in on what I believe of the characters...
Harry was stronger than Kes as a character...
Jake was a good teenage character that DIDN'T follow in his father's footsteps...
Jadzia was an intellectual character
Ezri was a good character, but due to the fact that she came in on the LAST season, she was left under-developed...but by no fault of the actress...
Seven, more eye candy, just like the two listed above, but as pointed out several times already, "TREK IS FULL OF IT!"
Kes was a piece of eye candy herself until she left...she didn't wear the MOST revealing clothing, but she was eye candy...just not as obviously as Seven.
| lynx wrote: | | As for the list, I was asked to provide a list of ca 10 more and less wasted characters.........which I did and my statement is as good as those who claim that Kes was a waste. |
And you did exactly what was asked...and La Forge "bet" you that you couldn't come up with 10 legitimately lame characters...and then he, as well as several others, came up with legitimate reasons as to why they're NOT lame, therefore allowing you to lose the bet...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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