| Am I right or wrong? |
| You're right |
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45% |
[ 5 ] |
| You're wrong |
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36% |
[ 4 ] |
| Some kind of inbetween... |
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18% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 11 |
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:47 am Why is the Federation so stupid, cowardly, and selfish? |
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Ok, maybe I'm being a little rough on them, but lets be honest, they really are all the above.
Earth's Defense Means Nothing: The Earth was threatened by an alien probe, seeking communications from the extinct whales. The Earth had been NEARLY attacked by the Borg in TNG episode "Best of Both Worlds". Then in Star Trek: First Contact, the Borg nearly assimilated Earth(They did in ALTERNATE timeline). Then finally, through the Breen, the Dominion attacked Stafleet HQ! Why doesn't Starfleet stop and think "Hey...Earth is a tempting target as it is the head of the Federation AND it's defenseless. Maybe...just maybe...we should make some form of defense?" Speaking of defense, what happened to the Earth space dock? That would make a great defense, but it was no where near Earth in Star Trek: First Contact. Wouldn't that have helped? I noticed in "Endgame" there was a fleet ready to attack the Borg, but I believe they were taken off other duties as usual. What is the deal with Earth's defense?
The Federation Don't Care About Others: We all know the story of the Maquis, either from DS9 or VOY. The Federation, apparently to avoid a war with the Cardassians, screwed over a bunch of people, forcing them to relocate. If they didn't relocate, they had to stay under the Cardassian's rule, which was not a good thing. How much did the Federation do to work with the settlers? Very little it seemed. Do I have to mention what happened in Star Trek: Insurrection? The brass in Starfleet didn't seem to mind...
"Jean Luc, it's only 600 people..."
What about the Founders? They knew what S31 did was WRONG, but they didn't care. They wanted to end the war in their favor and if it mean a little genocide? Go for it... Before you say "They were at war and LOSING! Its the desperate act of a desperate people!" Would you really advocate the genocide of all Arabs due to the current war going on today? I would hope not...
The Federation Sure Is Dumb...: If it wasn't for the ingenuity of some of the crews, Starfleet would have died out a long time ago. They're constantly getting in fights with various powers. Over what? SPACE. I thought they were not an expasionist power, but a group of explorers? I can understand it isn't their fault with the Borg, but everyone else? The Dominion? All they had to do was stop sending ships to the other side, but they STILL did it. As if the Alpha and Beta quadrants aren't enough to explore, they need to explore the Gamma? Right now, at this minute?
"You keep telling me that space is this big place, filled with infinite wonders and beauty. Well if it's so big, then why can't we share it?"
Since the Federation is so bent on starting crap. Why don't they fight with the Klingons and Romulans? How many times have those govnerments hatched plans to hurt the Federation, enacted on them, only to be thwarted by a random crew, and then...nothing changes?
I'm just trying to understand what the deal is with the Federation...
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:25 am |
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"Being a little rough on them, arn't you Sheriff"*
There is a defense force in Sol, it had been mentioned seveal times, but then again, they were tiny one man craft. There is where ENT (Yeah yeah, grip all you want ENT haters...) did yet ANOTHER thing right. They had STARSHIPS (Intrepid at LEAST) to Patrol/Defend Sol/Earth.
It wouldn't have done much good anyways, as the Prob killed power to everything (That Space Dock, the ships inside it anyone?). It is curious as to WHERE that spacedock is in the aftermentioned episodes/events as it is supposedly in earth orbit.
Not much could have been seemengly done for the borg efforts in 'Best of Both worlds' but yeah, a few starships being there like in ENT could have bolstered the attack force that had been fighting sense the typhon sector or what ever in 'First Contact.'
The Xindi Probe appeared RIGHT next to earth, Intrepid and the other ships simply could not have gotton to it in time from the other side of the sector (They did like warp 3 or what ever)
I think it's a naive thing more then anything but after 300 odd years, you'd THINK they would learn by now. Let's sumerize what should teach them. (NOTE: this is CANON events)
Xindi Probe (seven Million dead!) March, 2153
Second Xindi Probe. (About 40 dead) Feburary, 2154
[Again, I wan't to stress, the ships assinged there were not fast enough at the time period, although it is curious as to how no one EVENTUALLY arrived to the battle site]
Alien Whale Probe 2286
Borg Invasion 2366/67
Second Borg Invasion 2373
Breen Raid of Earth 2375
Maybe your right, Andy. In the course of about a decade, about THREE times Earth it self was a target... (probably a couple more or what ever...)
They claim to care, but it would be one of those things where '600 is a small price for 600 MILLION' (Don't agree, but what ever)
From the federation's standpoint, they were given a chance to leave, they didn't. Though I fail to understand why it HAD to be certain territories thus the DMZ was made....
All is fine and dandy untill paradise is threatened...
I don't know about "dumb" more like Naive, or perhaps a "Pfft, not while I have this firepower your not..." So maybe they are dumb, it is a valid point.
"Space is VAST, Captain..." (Sub-Commander T'Pol to Captain Archer, ENT- Fight or Flight)
Tons of areas to expand in (One can look at the 'map' and realize the Alpha quadrant is HARDLY touched.) and they choose areas where other major politcal powers exsist, and already reasonibly have a claim there (Or had planned on it) Yet, when someone else does this it's "Oh, no you don't! you BETTER back off if you know what's good for you!"
Overall? The federation is another power that THRIVES on conflict, no matter how deadly. With out it, what is there to work for to better?
I uh... hope this was a good response....
*Al Bundy, to the Dump water (don't ask) Sheriff. MWC-'Poppy's by the tree' [This was a joke Andy   ]
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:29 pm |
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*gasp*
I'm ashamed that I missed this thread, at first. After all, I am the "anti-Fed." person of DSG, am I not?
Anyhoo...I concur (don't you just love that word?) with what you said Founder. I agree that the Federation can be stupid at times (oh, alright, more than "at times". Quite frequently, in fact.) and seem to be war-mongerers (or so it seems. After all, how many wars have they been involved in?).
Also, you might not want to leave out one, quite embarassing, chapter in Federation history. The events of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost". Quite embarassing. Asides from the fact that changelings had infiltrated Earth and killed over twenty people (and got away with it!!!), members of Starfleet, themselves, managed to knock out the entire power relay for the entire planet (using cadets; albeit, Red Squad cadets, as the pawns in their insidious plot) and almost "de-throne" the President of the UFP. Thanks to Captain Sisko and Odo, however (another point that you made; random captains and their crew always saving the day), managed to stop the plot...Man, I loved those episodes...
-------signature-------
You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:41 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | [It wouldn't have done much good anyways, as the Prob killed power to everything (That Space Dock, the ships inside it anyone?). It is curious as to WHERE that spacedock is in the aftermentioned episodes/events as it is supposedly in earth orbit.
Exactly. The space dock still existed according to VOY BTW. just in case anyone thought that it may simply have been destroyed or something.
Not much could have been seemengly done for the borg efforts in 'Best of Both worlds' but yeah, a few starships being there like in ENT could have bolstered the attack force that had been fighting sense the typhon sector or what ever in 'First Contact.
The Xindi Probe appeared RIGHT next to earth, Intrepid and the other ships simply could not have gotton to it in time from the other side of the sector (They did like warp 3 or what ever)
Yeah, but I didnt JUST mean the Xindi. If an attack force could have been there to begin with, it may have helped for the Borg and Breen).
I think it's a naive thing more then anything but after 300 odd years, you'd THINK they would learn by now. Let's sumerize what should teach them. (NOTE: this is CANON events)
Xindi Probe (seven Million dead!) March, 2153
Second Xindi Probe. (About 40 dead) Feburary, 2154
[Again, I wan't to stress, the ships assinged there were not fast enough at the time period, although it is curious as to how no one EVENTUALLY arrived to the battle site]
Alien Whale Probe 2286
Borg Invasion 2366/67
Second Borg Invasion 2373
Breen Raid of Earth 2375
Maybe your right, Andy. In the course of about a decade, about THREE times Earth it self was a target... (probably a couple more or what ever...)
They claim to care, but it would be one of those things where '600 is a small price for 600 MILLION' (Don't agree, but what ever)
From the federation's standpoint, they were given a chance to leave, they didn't. Though I fail to understand why it HAD to be certain territories thus the DMZ was made....
All is fine and dandy untill paradise is threatened...
I don't know about "dumb" more like Naive, or perhaps a "Pfft, not while I have this firepower your not..." So maybe they are dumb, it is a valid point.
Naive is the Xindi threat. Maybe even Borg, but after that? Hell no. Especially during the Dominion war. Earth was targetted by the Founders. They should have prepared. Especially with the fall of Betazed.
"Space is VAST, Captain..." (Sub-Commander T'Pol to Captain Archer, ENT- Fight or Flight)
Tons of areas to expand in (One can look at the 'map' and realize the Alpha quadrant is HARDLY touched.) and they choose areas where other major politcal powers exsist, and already reasonibly have a claim there (Or had planned on it) Yet, when someone else does this it's "Oh, no you don't! you BETTER back off if you know what's good for you!"
Overall? The federation is another power that THRIVES on conflict, no matter how deadly. With out it, what is there to work for to better?
I uh... hope this was a good response....
*Al Bundy, to the Dump water (don't ask) Sheriff. MWC-'Poppy's by the tree' [This was a joke Andy ] |
| Quote: | Anyhoo...I concur (don't you just love that word?) with what you said Founder. I agree that the Federation can be stupid at times (oh, alright, more than "at times". Quite frequently, in fact.) and seem to be war-mongerers (or so it seems. After all, how many wars have they been involved in?).
Also, you might not want to leave out one, quite embarassing, chapter in Federation history. The events of "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost". Quite embarassing. Asides from the fact that changelings had infiltrated Earth and killed over twenty people (and got away with it!!!), members of Starfleet, themselves, managed to knock out the entire power relay for the entire planet (using cadets; albeit, Red Squad cadets, as the pawns in their insidious plot) and almost "de-throne" the President of the UFP. Thanks to Captain Sisko and Odo, however (another point that you made; random captains and their crew always saving the day), managed to stop the plot...Man, I loved those episodes... |
This is ANOTHER good point and since you posted, I think of the Bajorans. Is no one else disturbed at how the Federation is USING the Bajorans? Before the wormhole, they didn't really care about them and helped them out of pity. When the wormhole opened? They kissed the Bajoran's a** as much as possible...
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:50 pm |
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Hmmmn, I just realized, I read MA's BReen attack on Earth. The damage was minor for it to have been larger ships (They compare this to the fact that other species larger ships doese MASSICE damage), but to the point, it said that perhaps some sort of system defense stoped the larger ships but... from the dialoug it makes it sound like that wasn't really so...
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:53 pm |
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Heh...Cool! I'm the Bajoran person now. 
Anyhoo...Yeah...The Bajoran issue. The Fed. was using the Bajorans, eh? I don't remember which episode ("By Inferno's Light", I believe), but, Martok (I think) says this line (or something along the lines of this line).
"Five years ago, no one had ever heard of Bajor or Deep Space Nine. Who would have thought that, now, the entire Alpha Quadrant's fates would revolve around it."
Something like that. Using the Bajorans was horrible...It angers me, the Bajoran-loving, anti-Federation person!
-------signature-------
You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:55 pm |
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I dont know if they really "used them" yes, their interest in protection increased massivly when the wormhole was discovered, but look what happend, the Dominion came in:P If it was klingons or romulans controling the area, it would have been ALOT worst.
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:02 am |
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Eh...No matter what, the Federation was using the Bajorans. Would they have been that nice to them if there was no Wormhole? Most likely not. The Federation wanted Bajor to join them badly. You should see "Rapture", again. One of the Admirals threatened to take away Sisko's commission when he screwed everything up (for the better, it turns out). If Bajor was a part of the Federation, the Federation would do what they wanted, concerning the Wormhole, whether the Bajorans liked it or not. The Federation, in my opinion, at least, are a sort of opportunists. If there is something to gain out of the deal (Bajor/Cardassian treaty and the subsequent DMZ), they'll do it...(attempted Founder genocide).
-------signature-------
You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:52 am |
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| Quote: | | Why is the Federation so stupid, cowardly, and selfish? |
I think it's called "lack of balls"
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neo_viral
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jan 2003
Posts: 2668
Location: Deep Space South Africa
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| Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:28 am |
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| madlilnerd wrote: | | Quote: | | Why is the Federation so stupid, cowardly, and selfish? |
I think it's called "lack of balls" |
I guess that would make them like today`s United nations,yeah ?
Founder : Great topic.Caught a little by surprise,i was under the impression EVERYONE here is pro-federation.Shows how wrong i was.Totally agree with you.
I used to love the federation.Growing up with TOS,TNG & Ds9 on tv i got all starry eyed whenever i saw a starfleet vessel ,just that wide eyed sense of wonder & exploration.Then i saw some other sides of the federation,and it hit me,that for the most part,imho,its one big FAKE.It sort of hurt,to realise i was in love with a lie,and that not ALL captains were gonna be like Kirk,Picard or Sisko,and willing to bend some rules (damn that prime directive),or like their crews,always willing to do the right thing.
Man,Q was SO right in Encounter at farpoint.Humanity hadnt changed at ALL in a sense.
Taking the dominion war as an example,ive heard people say that they think the federation started the war.I guess in a sense they`re right.Because the federation always talks the talk,but a lot of times,they arent willing to walk the walk.Just in that section of space,everyone knows how they screwed up.With the maquis,they just dropped their own colonists,cause im sure it was like,deep inside,with the admirals & people who make the decision`s behinds safe on earth etc,who cares about a few colonists ? Like boxers in round 12,they threw in the towel first,not wanting another war,when im SURE there was other ways they could have sorted it.Like berlin at the end of ww2,wich was in russian terr. but they had a uk/us forces sector in Berlin itself,joint occupation.Why couldnt they for example have said,ok,we have colonists in their space,maybe they have colonists in ours,lets have a sort of...floating,patchy border.
With Bajor,they just sat back and did NOTHING,because,gee,it was in cardassian territory .(spineless.I bet theres 100s of Bajors out there,same thing happening,federation turning away)Then,after the latter ends,they sort of belatedly step in,and of course,show a peak in interest after the wormhole discovery (i wonder why ....).Then when the klingons basically got bored fighting with the romulans & turned on the cardassians the federation didnt exactly do anything to stop them either,i mean,wouldnt want to offend an ally,right,anyway,im sure for all their pretenses a lot of federation people,having come out of a war with the cardassians,were cheering the klingons secretly on anyway.So all this stuff was like,causing bad vibes in that sector and then when the dominion came along...like in that one ep,basically,where Eddington said to Sisko" We were winning,we had them on the run !" and Sisko replied "Yeah,right into the arms of the dominion!".They let the situation simmer in that sector for far too long :/
Prejudice : gee,i thought the Federation had gotten all over that,according to people like Picard anyway,but one could still clearly see it.Remember that TNG ep where they were facing the romulans with a fleet and Data had command of a ship and the crew werent too nice with him cause they thought,meh,what could an android do to command US ? And oh yes.Just make ONE mistake in starfleet,and you are so doomed.Esp if people die.What the hell happened to peace and giving people second chances and some forgiveness and the stuff they SAY they`re all about? Look at how people like Tom Paris were treated by some starfleet crew (that doctor etc),and Ro larren,by Geordi,and Ensign Sito when she`s telling Picard that after that incident she didnt have any friends at the academy,in "Lower decks".
Elitism : Red squad.Oh boy,did THEY ever rub me the wrong way.Smug in their "hey,we`re the best,we`re red squad!" getting the best training,the best quarters,etc.I thought in starfleet,not counting rank,everyone was equal.So much for that.I guess my anti-federation sentiments just came to a boil with them and that ds9 ep,"The valiant".Just the way they treated Jake cause he was a "civilian".Man.When that Dominion battlecruiser pwnzed them and starting taking out escape pods,i was SO not cheering for the federation anymore,but the dominion.
Srry if i went on a bit but just had to get it off my chest,happy to see more anti-federation people ;/
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lifeguide
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 132
Location: AUSTRALIA
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| Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:50 pm |
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I totally understand where everyone here is coming from and agree to certain point.
I think we have to distinguish Earth from the Federation.
It is like today saying that because Australia is a part of the UN all Australians agree with, think like and behave as the UN does, which of course is wrong.
I also think we need to examine each specific incident quoted here in an individual role and not as federation law.
The Prime Directive is the number one law/regulation a starfleet officer must uphold but as some characters have said in episodes and movies, I would rather think of them as guidelines and I would rather a captian or a admiral take every situation as it comes.
Stupid, cowardly and selfish is an apt description but to say that all of starfleet is corrupt or immoral is like me saying all Americans agree with the Iraq Invasion or someone else saying all Australians agree with our government in supporting this action, both statements are wrong and so they fall into the stereotyping or prejudicial reputations some races on Earth have.
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