| Should Kes have left? |
| Yes |
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46% |
[ 25 ] |
| NO |
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37% |
[ 20 ] |
| Either's fine |
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16% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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| Author |
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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 Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:56 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | And what would be even more funny, is if Star Trek does come back and comes back with a bang...what would be funny is if B&B are at the helm...or at least still involved...that would just light some people's fire if it comes back strong and they're still there... 
| prankishsmart wrote: | | because a lot of things changed in the show that I didn't approve of. |
At least they didn't need your approval then...  |
I'm confused. Are you saying B&B did a good job? Are you saying they made the right decisions for storylines?
Funny, because it's common knowledge as to the cause of star trek's demise.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:47 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | You should re-watch "Cold Fire" again.
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For your information, I have been doing my best to get my hands on "Cold Fire." So please don't tell me what to do... 
| lynx wrote: | | Which means that Suspiria wasn't limited to the place in normal space where the Ocampa Array was located. tereofre Suspiria could have encountered Voyager at another place. |
Well either way, she might have been able to encounter them again, but now the question is..."Why would she want to?"
| lynx wrote: | As for "the memory of Kes", I'm definitely not the one who is tarnishing it. Those who are doing that are the people who conatantly bash the character or the actress, who thought that it was good that she left and who liked the scenario made up in "Fury" where Kes was totally destroyed and humiliated.
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Keep telling yourself that. As long as you believe that you're doing good to her memory and stand up for her no matter what, then you're in the right. 
| lynx wrote: | I'm confused. Are you saying B&B did a good job? Are you saying they made the right decisions for storylines?
Funny, because it's common knowledge as to the cause of star trek's demise. |
It's not about what I believe, it's that I am saying that it's a good thing they didn't need your permission to do what they have done...
And since you're just so knowledgable about the demise of Star Trek, do enlighten the rest of us...and be ready to back it up with proof...otherwise it's just yours or someone else's own speculation...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:16 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | You should re-watch "Cold Fire" again.
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For your information, I have been doing my best to get my hands on "Cold Fire." So please don't tell me what to do... |
| Voyager2004 wrote: | | You totally need to re-watch these episodes before you remark about them... |
Slightly hypcritical, no?
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:31 am |
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As I said, I have been trying to get my hands on it...but to no avail...where as I will be happy to retract my statement about Suspiria "not" living in subspace since she supposedly does...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:32 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | And since you're just so knowledgable about the demise of Star Trek, do enlighten the rest of us...and be ready to back it up with proof...otherwise it's just yours or someone else's own speculation... |
BORG.
What more do I need to say?
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:18 am |
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An explanation would be nice. I don't see anything wrong with the Borg...
Now, as for Kes...
Now that I have had a chance to catch the highlights of, and later finish watching, "Cold Fire," I do retract my statements that Suspiria didn't use a technology to prolong the Ocampan lifespan. She apparently did, according to Tanis in the episode. But what irritates me, is that in a couple scenes before he says that, Kes says it's impossible, and he tells her that she helped to enhance their abilities...thereby leading us to believe that there was no technology. Then at the dinner table with a few of the staff and Neelix, he says that a few hundred years ago, she helped them to develop a technology. So it is very easy, especially since I have not seen this episode for some great length of time, to have forgotten that little part. So a ragging of "I told you so's" will definitely not be appreciated...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:05 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | An explanation would be nice. I don't see anything wrong with the Borg...
Now, as for Kes...
Now that I have had a chance to catch the highlights of, and later finish watching, "Cold Fire," I do retract my statements that Suspiria didn't use a technology to prolong the Ocampan lifespan. She apparently did, according to Tanis in the episode. But what irritates me, is that in a couple scenes before he says that, Kes says it's impossible, and he tells her that she helped to enhance their abilities...thereby leading us to believe that there was no technology. Then at the dinner table with a few of the staff and Neelix, he says that a few hundred years ago, she helped them to develop a technology. So it is very easy, especially since I have not seen this episode for some great length of time, to have forgotten that little part. So a ragging of "I told you so's" will definitely not be appreciated... |
No, I'm not gonna write anything like that. At least you're honest enough to admit your mistake and I appreciate that.
In fact, there can be problems to remember everything from episodes watched many years ago, especially when it's not one of the favorite episodes. I do have some problems with the season 4-7 episodes as well as I have only watched them once and that was some years ago.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:06 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | As I said, I have been trying to get my hands on it...but to no avail...where as I will be happy to retract my statement about Suspiria "not" living in subspace since she supposedly does... |
And what if Lynx has been "trying to get his/her hands" on the episodes you mentioned? You don't honestly expect everybody know whats going on in your life, so how is his/her statement any more rude than yours?
Why don't we all just not tell eachother what to do, and everything will be fine (notice the following lack of question mark). People are getting way too touchy in this topic over a rather moot point.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:13 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | And what if Lynx has been "trying to get his/her hands" on the episodes you mentioned? |
Ahh...very valid question...But most of the episodes that I have mentioned, except for "Cold Fire," obviously, he chooses NOT to go back and watch...now, that's his own decision...but the fact remains. I know for a fact, unless he has since changed his mind, that he won't go watch any episode from seasons 4-7 because he has stated clearly that "once was enough."
And I just want, for the record, to say that if I come across as rude, I do apologize, since that is not my intention. And to please not take anything that I may say personally. I am here for the sole reason of this entire site...debate.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
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| Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:38 pm Yes- get her out!! |
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Kes bought nothing to Voyager, except to get into scrapes and get rescued every second episode. She was a bore to watch, and whenever they put her in a good role- e.g Warlord, she had to go and mess it up. Seven of Nine was a much better character- she did something, for a start
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:56 pm Re: Yes- get her out!! |
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| StarfleetCommand74656 wrote: | | Kes bought nothing to Voyager, except to get into scrapes and get rescued every second episode. She was a bore to watch, and whenever they put her in a good role- e.g Warlord, she had to go and mess it up. Seven of Nine was a much better character- she did something, for a start |
Oh yes, she totally took over the series. As for character, she was a rather mediocre character in a nice package.
As for Kes, she saved the ship on more than one occasion and her will to learn and explore really personified the spirit of Star Trek. If Star Trek ever had a character which could be said representing what Star Trek stands for, then it was Kes. OK, I admit that characters like Kirk, Spock, Picard, Riker, Sisko and Janeway might be the "leading characters" in many aspects and the characters who represents Star Trek but the nice, simple Golden Lady of Voyager really personifies the spirit of the wonderful show itself and deserves better than to be thrown away as some piece of garbage or dismissed as something unimportant that just happened to be around in the first three seasons.
As long as there are fans of Startrek and fans of Star Trek Voyager, Kes will not be forgotten.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/
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69ofSeven
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
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| Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:00 am Absolutely YES she should have left |
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In fact she should never have joined the show in the first place.
Well that's a little harsh but what did Kes bring to the show? I can't help feeling that Kes was written in just to add another female crew member - then the writers just had no idea what to do with her.
Things the writers tried to make Kes interesting:
Put her in charge of hydroponics? Brilliant. And while you're at it, how about writing a few hydroponic vegetable-based episodes? Hmmmm, maybe not.
Invent some wanky telepathic ability, that'll make her interesting? BZZZZ!! WRONG!! It just makes her telepathically boring.
Make her a nurse? Right, because her sparkling wit will be a good match for the Doctor? WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN.
Well ok, here's a winning idea: make her an uber-telepathic psycho biatch who can bend concrete just by thinking about it? Then kill her off and bring her back from the future and turn her into an even more uber-telepathic psycho with a half-ass future-based back story (?), pretend she hates Voyager and then make her like everyone again?
If a writer put the script for Fury on my desk I'd punch his lights out. Then fire him. Then punch him again.
First post, hello people. I like Seven, she has a nice botty.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:35 am Re: Absolutely YES she should have left |
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| 69ofSeven wrote: | In fact she should never have joined the show in the first place.
Well that's a little harsh but what did Kes bring to the show? I can't help feeling that Kes was written in just to add another female crew member - then the writers just had no idea what to do with her.
Things the writers tried to make Kes interesting:
Put her in charge of hydroponics? Brilliant. And while you're at it, how about writing a few hydroponic vegetable-based episodes? Hmmmm, maybe not.
Invent some wanky telepathic ability, that'll make her interesting? BZZZZ!! WRONG!! It just makes her telepathically boring.
Make her a nurse? Right, because her sparkling wit will be a good match for the Doctor? WRONG WRONG WRONG AGAIN.
Well ok, here's a winning idea: make her an uber-telepathic psycho biatch who can bend concrete just by thinking about it? Then kill her off and bring her back from the future and turn her into an even more uber-telepathic psycho with a half-ass future-based back story (?), pretend she hates Voyager and then make her like everyone again?
If a writer put the script for Fury on my desk I'd punch his lights out. Then fire him. Then punch him again.
First post, hello people. I like Seven, she has a nice botty. |
Most of what you've written is wrong but I do agree on the comments about "Fury". The guy who came up with that piece of crap should deserve to have his jaw broken and I would be very eager to breake it myself.
But your statemet that Kes was a wasted character is totally wrong.
I mean, here we have a character who really personifies the spirit of Star Trek with her will to learn and explore, who leaves her homeworld for good just to discover, explore and learn. She is also a character with interesting mental abilities, with nice and friendly manners but also determined and tough when it comes to it. A totally unique character compared to most of the cut-out, cardboard Starfleet stereotypes which have showed up in many Trek series and mind you, Voyager was the series with the interesting characters, both among the Starfleet personel and the Maquis.
The only mistake with Kes's character was the nine-year lifespan which seem a bit silly, something of a writers whim, just like "oh, we've never tried that".
I can agree that ptting her in charage of the Hydroponics bay and making her the Doc's assistant weren't the most brilliant moves from the writers but still she had a good piece of the action. She did save the ship on several occasions and her inter-action with the Doctor was sometimes brilliant and funny.
The sad thing is that there were hints of more important role for Kes in season 3. Episodes like "The Swarm", "Before and After", "Darkling" and "Scorpion#1" showed some possible angles how to develope the character further. Unfortunately, we never got the chance to see that because TIIC decide to dump her for very dubious reasons.
Doing that, they also lost one of the best actors they ever had, a brilliant actress who really gave life to the character Kes.
But Kes will not be forgotten.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/
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69ofSeven
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 5
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| Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:51 am Re: Absolutely YES she should have left |
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| Lynx wrote: | | But Kes will not be forgotten. |
Kes who? Just kidding.
| Lynx wrote: | | Most of what you've written is wrong |
It's my opinion. Your opinion is different. That doesn't make me - or you - wrong. I just believe that Voyager would have been no worse if Kes had never been in the show. She brought little or nothing to the storylines and the writers had no consistent ideas on how to use the character.
If I was captain of Voyager I'd send Kes, Harry Kim, Neelix and Commander Deadweight on an away mission then hightail it out of there at maximum warp.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:16 am |
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Attn: You Know Who You Are
It'd be really disappointing to have to lock this topic due to the fact that you all seem to be unable to stop with the personal attacks.
| Quote: | | And you must not know how to read...Or you have a bad memory or something |
Do you really think a comment like that helps further your argument? Hardly. Target the subject matter, and not each other, or the topic will be locked and you'll have to move on. That simple.
Thanks,
Theresa
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:07 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | who leaves her homeworld for good just to discover
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Actually, she really only left her homeworld because Neelix beamed to the surface of her planet with Janeway and the security team, and then called her over. Then they asked for "asylum," or rather the permission to go with them, and then they left. So she really was only following Neelix, and she was just willing to leave her planet. Not "I'm leaving my planet for good to discover," but more like "I'm leaving my planet for good to be with Neelix because I believe he knows what's right..."
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Za Za Zoom
Ensign
Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Britain, Britain
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| Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:24 pm |
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I was glad to see the back of Kes!
Don't get me wrong, Jennifer Lien was a compentent performer - far superior to dullards such as Garret Wang and Robert Beltran. But her character was so underwritten, so poorly conceived and uninspiring, not even a decent actress such as Lien could salvage a boring character like Kes. And Seven of Nine brought a lot more to the show than Kes (or most other characters) did in the first three seasons.
And I have no time for Trekkies who thought Seasons One to Three were Voyager's better seasons; I think malcontent fans who thought all seven seasons of Voyager were mediocre are more honest and unbiased than Kes fans, in my book (however my favourite seasons are Seasons One, Two, Four and Five).
Anyway my overall opinion of Kes and Seven:
Kes - 
Seven of Nine -
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:12 am |
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| Za Za Zoom wrote: | I was glad to see the back of Kes!
Don't get me wrong, Jennifer Lien was a compentent performer - far superior to dullards such as Garret Wang and Robert Beltran. But her character was so underwritten, so poorly conceived and uninspiring, not even a decent actress such as Lien could salvage a boring character like Kes. And Seven of Nine brought a lot more to the show than Kes (or most other characters) did in the first three seasons.
And I have no time for Trekkies who thought Seasons One to Three were Voyager's better seasons; I think malcontent fans who thought all seven seasons of Voyager were mediocre are more honest and unbiased than Kes fans, in my book (however my favourite seasons are Seasons One, Two, Four and Five).
Anyway my overall opinion of Kes and Seven:
Kes -
Seven of Nine - |
"Sigh!"
It looks like I've ended up in the hell for Kes fans!
"Sigh"
Is there no one here except me who likes Kes? 
Never mind, surrender is not an option has never been anoption and will never be an option for The Lynx.
"Never surrender
when you're up against the wall
Never surrender
stand up-fight them all"
"Never Surrender"
Saxon
And I don't have time for those who think seasons 4-7 were the better seasons of Voyager. In fact, it wasn't Voyager anymore but the Seven Of Nine show, a new series where the former favorites from Voyager were reduced to moving images in the background or backup characters for The Star.
As for Seven herself, I have never understood the "greatness" of the character. A rather average character in a nice package. Would she have gotten all that attention if she had looked and dressed like Seska, Dr.Crusher or Ro Laren? (Three good characters who never got the same attention and media hype).
No offence to Jeri Ryan who is a good actress.
As for Kes, I find her definitely more complex and interesting than Seven. It's really sad that she's been shoved aside the way she was by TIIC and don't get the credit she deserves. I can actually stand some of the hype around Seven but I don't like that Kes is so totally neglected.
My overall opinion about those characters
Kes 
Seven
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:34 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | "Sigh!"
It looks like I've ended up in the hell for Kes fans!
"Sigh"
Is there no one here except me who likes Kes? |
I actually didn't mind Kes, before you. Now, I do kind of hate the character. You don't make a very convincing argument, you called those who "hurt Kes" TIIC, not really mature, you get a little too snappy and have this "my opinion is the best" attitude, and that is all off-putting. Perhaps if you tried to argue the point a little better, without the confrontations, you'd make more Kes fans then enemies.
How about we all find common ground? I think we're all in agreement that Jennifer Lien was fantastic, minus a few episodes.
But I honestly can't say that VOY would survive without Seven of Nine.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:12 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | "Sigh!"
It looks like I've ended up in the hell for Kes fans!
"Sigh"
Is there no one here except me who likes Kes? |
I actually didn't mind Kes, before you. Now, I do kind of hate the character. You don't make a very convincing argument, you called those who "hurt Kes" TIIC, not really mature, you get a little too snappy and have this "my opinion is the best" attitude, and that is all off-putting. Perhaps if you tried to argue the point a little better, without the confrontations, you'd make more Kes fans then enemies.
How about we all find common ground? I think we're all in agreement that Jennifer Lien was fantastic, minus a few episodes.
But I honestly can't say that VOY would survive without Seven of Nine. |
You are a bit touchy here, aren't you?
To be honest, I don't dislike DS9 even if some of the fans of that show (not you, take no offense please) are very rude in their comments about Voyager on some forums.
As for me, it's a bit different to be polite when I'm always confronted with argument such as: "Kes was worthless, I was happy to see her go, Jennifer Lien is a lousy actress and similar not so nice comments, spiced with "logical explanations" why it was necessary to kick out Kes and on top of that the constant praising of the "changes in season 4". After trying to come up with logical arguments myself for some time and still facing the constant down-putting attitude to my favorite character, then finally my bad temper makes me explode and I pay back with similar phrasings and then I'm the one who is accused of being rude. 
It's not always that simple to fight in a defensive position, knowing that nothing can be done to correct what happened in episodes like "The Gift" and "Fury". There will always be someone who smacks me in the head with "canon" followed by things like "those in charge did what was best".
There are other aspects too. For example, you as a DS9 fan have 7 seasons of DS9 episodes. If you want a continuing story of your favorites, then there's the DS9 Relaunch books which are well-written and popular among the fans. What do I got? Three seasons of Voyager, a couple of old books and no relaunch worth to read. If I want a new story where Kes is involved, I have to write it myself! And then I still have to stand things like: "Ah, your story is not canon, in "Fury" it was stated that bla, bla, bla and so on".
Things like that can make a person a bit edgy.
As for character criticizm, I could easily point out 10-15 characters from all Star Trek series who I find bland, uninteresting and in some cases rather bad but I don't smack the heads of those characters on different forums just for the sake of it and thus annoying those who like the characters. I mean, I totally avoid the "enterprise" forum! The only character I've sometimes come up with some critical remarks about is Seven Of Nine and that's because:
1. She replaced Kes and was an indirect reason for Kes being kicked out.
2. She is somewhat over-rated (even if I do accept and understand that some fans really like her, I don't think that she was the best thing that ever happened to Star Trek and I don't think she saved Voyager).
3. The catsuit and the way she was marketed.
4. Some of her fans aren't the nicest, to say the least.
When it comes to the statement "my opinion is the best", then I'm definitely not alone here. The problem is that I'm a fan of a character who was kicked out for very dubious reasons and who not seem to be so popular on this forum for reasons I don't understand. Some people don't like that I come up with another opinion and another facts or theories than the official and accepted.
"TIIC" is another word for the more used "TPTB". I found it on another forum some years ago (so I didn't invent it) and found the phrase very appropriate considering the not so wise actions of those people in charge in the recent years. I don't find the phrase immature, more close to the truth. You can't possibly expect me to worship them after what happened in the beginning of season 4 and "Fury", can you?
But I do agree that we should strive to find a common ground. I mean, I haven't been the greatest Seven Of Nine fan but thanks to some of her ardent fans who have made me see the character from another angle, I have at least accepted the character as a part of the Voyager story and also realized that people like her and I'm trying to respect that.
I think that the same could be achieved for the rest of our favorites too.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:53 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | You are a bit touchy here, aren't you?
Excuse me, what? I'm touchy. A bit hypocritical of you to say. Me and VOY2004 have had nothing but infinite patience with you. Even though, we don't need to. We refute your claims over and over and all you say is "TIIC sucks! Kes=the spirit of Trek!" See? Thats what I'm talking about. Instead of nicely replying, you say im touchy. Thus, I have no differnet opinion. Kes=not a good a character.
To be honest, I don't dislike DS9 even if some of the fans of that show (not you, take no offense please) are very rude in their comments about Voyager on some forums.
We're only rude because the VOY fans are a bit obsessive and annoying. "VOY could beat ANY ship!" That gets irritating real fast. VOY is not the ship to end all ships. FAR from it.
As for me, it's a bit different to be polite when I'm always confronted with argument such as: "Kes was worthless, I was happy to see her go, Jennifer Lien is a lousy actress and similar not so nice comments, spiced with "logical explanations" why it was necessary to kick out Kes and on top of that the constant praising of the "changes in season 4". After trying to come up with logical arguments myself for some time and still facing the constant down-putting attitude to my favorite character, then finally my bad temper makes me explode and I pay back with similar phrasings and then I'm the one who is accused of being rude.
Well, again, me or Voyager2004 were not rude when this all began. I simply said that Kes wasn't that great and should have left. Your rebuttel was FAR from being nice and calm.
It's not always that simple to fight in a defensive position, knowing that nothing can be done to correct what happened in episodes like "The Gift" and "Fury". There will always be someone who smacks me in the head with "canon" followed by things like "those in charge did what was best".
Well it is one thing to say I don't like the canon story line, it is another to call the people TIIC, again, rather immature. Maybe funny the first time, but not anymore. The FACT is, canon is what is REAL. We may dislike what people did, we may dislike someone dying, we may dislike etc, but it DID happen. Trust me, I have to tell myself this about ENT, all the time.
There are other aspects too. For example, you as a DS9 fan have 7 seasons of DS9 episodes. If you want a continuing story of your favorites, then there's the DS9 Relaunch books which are well-written and popular among the fans. What do I got? Three seasons of Voyager, a couple of old books and no relaunch worth to read. If I want a new story where Kes is involved, I have to write it myself! And then I still have to stand things like: "Ah, your story is not canon, in "Fury" it was stated that bla, bla, bla and so on".
No...
There are 7 season of VOY. YOU choose to reject the other four. Thats like me hating the season that brings in the USS Defiant, stating that it takes away from the station. Then I only watch season I and II from then on, claiming that the other shows don't exist and that TIIC ruined DS9. Its one thing to hate the Defiant, but if I did that, then I would hate DS9. You are a KES fan, not a VOY fan. If you were a VOY fan, you would get past Kes leaving. That doesn't mean you'd like it, but you would get past it. Again, just because you feel the books aren't worthy enough to read, that doesn't mean they aren't there.
Besides, fan fiction is fun. As for the canon. People probably want to read fan fiction about what happened to Kes after Fury. So they assault your stories, because you offer them an alternate universe kind of thing.
Things like that can make a person a bit edgy.
Edgy? Perhaps. I do get annoyed when psycho VOY fans rant about how the Borg would tear through the Dominion and back it up with little facts. I know the feeling of not being listened to, but you won't be as long as you continue to push your comments that way you do.
As for character criticizm, I could easily point out 10-15 characters from all Star Trek series who I find bland, uninteresting and in some cases rather bad but I don't smack the heads of those characters on different forums just for the sake of it and thus annoying those who like the characters. I mean, I totally avoid the "enterprise" forum! The only character I've sometimes come up with some critical remarks about is Seven Of Nine and that's because:
Yes, I understand that. But this topic wasn't called "We hate Kes, so lets talk about how much she sucks". The person was simply asking about an important decision on a main cast member of the show. Her leaving was a big thing, because she was one of the main characters. You miscontrsued this as the said topic above.
1. She replaced Kes and was an indirect reason for Kes being kicked out.
2. She is somewhat over-rated (even if I do accept and understand that some fans really like her, I don't think that she was the best thing that ever happened to Star Trek and I don't think she saved Voyager).
3. The catsuit and the way she was marketed.
4. Some of her fans aren't the nicest, to say the least.
When it comes to the statement "my opinion is the best", then I'm definitely not alone here. The problem is that I'm a fan of a character who was kicked out for very dubious reasons and who not seem to be so popular on this forum for reasons I don't understand. Some people don't like that I come up with another opinion and another facts or theories than the official and accepted.
In the words of Torres to Seven of Nine, "Its not WHAT you say, its HOW you say it."
"TIIC" is another word for the more used "TPTB". I found it on another forum some years ago (so I didn't invent it) and found the phrase very appropriate considering the not so wise actions of those people in charge in the recent years. I don't find the phrase immature, more close to the truth. You can't possibly expect me to worship them after what happened in the beginning of season 4 and "Fury", can you?
So for you, its either "Worship" them or hate them? Well if you're going to limit yourself like that, then I guess that is your only option.
But I do agree that we should strive to find a common ground. I mean, I haven't been the greatest Seven Of Nine fan but thanks to some of her ardent fans who have made me see the character from another angle, I have at least accepted the character as a part of the Voyager story and also realized that people like her and I'm trying to respect that.
I think that the same could be achieved for the rest of our favorites too. |
Yep.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:19 pm |
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Well, so much for being nice.
My personal opinion is that TIIC sucks and Kes personified the spirit of Star Trek just as some posters on the forum thinks that kes was worthless and her "leaving" was the best thing that ever happened.
Are my opinions of a lesser value and am I the bad guy because my opinions go against the opinions of a certain majority of this forum?
When it comes to "who screwed up this thread" I guess we are all more and less guilty, not only me.
There might be 7 seasons of Voyager but I only have 3 to watch because I can't stand the other 4. The same for the books written after Kes's "leaving". I consider myself a Voyager fan because I like all the main characters, Janeway, Chakotay and the others, I like the premise of the show and the show itself before TIIC screwed it up. But if I have to choose betwen being a Voyager fan or a Kes fan, then I'm definitely a fan of Kes.
As for getting past things, I will never accept the events in "Fury" or the storyline there. Never! That episode was downright insulting to the fans of the character Kes who had hoped that she would return permanently in season 6 or 7. There's just no way to get past it. That would be a total surrender and surrender has never been an option for me.
No one has assaulted me for writing stories about Kes which corrects the damage to the character made in "Fury". On the contrary, there are many fans of the character Kes who likes the stories. So far no one has complained, at least not the fans of the character Kes.
As for writing a story based on "Fury", that would be the last thing I would ever do. I rather slit my throat.
As for TIIC, well once upon the time I saw them as rather beneficial people who gave us the best series ever (and I won't take away the credit from them for creating TNG, DS9 and Voyager). But the "changes in Voyager's season 4, the way they handled the whole thing and their way of presenting the whole thing to the fans and most of all the downright insult to the Kes fans that "Fury" was have made me lose my faith and trust in those people. They simply don't have my respect anymore.
As for Star Trek itself, I still like the concept for the whole thing and I have no complaints about TOS, TNG and DS9. There are some small things I dislike here and there in all of them but it don't affect my total liking of those series.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:04 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | | As for getting past things, I will never accept the events in "Fury" or the storyline there. Never! |
well, then by all means, never accept them...But just remember, you'll always be missing a piece of the TRUE and CANON storyline...
| lynx wrote: | | That would be a total surrender and surrender has never been an option for me. |
And, what exactly are you surrendering?
| lynx wrote: | | They simply don't have my respect anymore. |
Well, then I guess it's good that they can just move on without it...
Anyway, sorry, I've just been observing quietly in the background for the last couple of days...haven't felt the need to post.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Za Za Zoom
Ensign
Joined: 25 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Britain, Britain
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| Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:23 am |
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Sorry Lynx, but Kes never really interested me and Voyager was the mediocre tripe it always was before Seven of Nine arrived. And since Jeri Ryan was one of the more talented performers and her character was half decent, she was bound to get more screentime than the other underwritten (and in Beltran's case) badly acted characters.
And people who suggest that Jeri Ryan and her Seven of Nine character ruined Voyager are morons: Voyager ruined itself and Jeri Ryan merely hitched a ride halfway through that mess.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:12 pm |
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| Za Za Zoom wrote: | Sorry Lynx, but Kes never really interested me and Voyager was the mediocre tripe it always was before Seven of Nine arrived. And since Jeri Ryan was one of the more talented performers and her character was half decent, she was bound to get more screentime than the other underwritten (and in Beltran's case) badly acted characters.
And people who suggest that Jeri Ryan and her Seven of Nine character ruined Voyager are morons: Voyager ruined itself and Jeri Ryan merely hitched a ride halfway through that mess. |
Do you call me a moron?
I don't agree about "Voyager ruining itself". It was a grat show in seasons 1-3 and not even TIIC have come up with such a blatant statement as Voyager in any way was "ruining itself".
I agree that Ryan is a good actress. But I don't find her any better than Lien, Mulgrew, Beltran, Picardo, McNeill, Dawson, Russ, Phillips and Wang. As for Seven Of Nine, I don't see her as the Great Gift as some people think she is. The over-focus on her character was rather exaggerated considering the fact that the show wasn't supposed to be about a Borg searching for humanity but a ship with a mixed Starflet and Maquis crew lost in the Delta Quadrant.
The original premise went out of the window in season 4 when Voyager was transformed into The Seven of Nine Show. Instead of the lost ship premise we got the endless repeating of the concept "Seven search for her humanity", a concept which would have fitted better in TNG or in a new series.
But the main point isn't about Voyager's original premise or Seven's importance. The main point is that a great character was unnecessarily "annihilated" and an excellent actress fired for no acceptable reason at all.
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