| Should Kes have left? |
| Yes |
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46% |
[ 25 ] |
| NO |
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37% |
[ 20 ] |
| Either's fine |
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16% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 54 |
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| Author |
Message |
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:13 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | Have you watched the episodes "Warlord", "The Swarm", "Before And After","Darkling" and the first part of "Scorpion"?
I did and only three were memorable. The Swarm? Memorable thanks to the Doctor. Darkling? Memorable thanks to the doctor. The first part of Scorpion? Species 8472 and the Borg fighting. None were good because of Kes.
How do you know that Kes is hard to write about? Have you ever tried to write a story about her? Skilled writers like Greg Cox and Christie Golden had no problems in coming up with excellent Kes stories, writing good Kes stories wasn't any problems for Madame Taylor either before she and her colleagues decided that it was soooooooo difficult to come up with Kes stories.
How do I know? Because I asked you to write me a short summary on a future episode about her. Any and you didn't do it.
As for the nine-year lifespan, don't use it as a bad excuse to get rid of her if you don't have anything else to come up with. It wouldn't have been any problems to prolong her lifespan because, as it was stated in the excellent episode "Cold Fire", the Ocampa on Suspiria's array could live untile they were 20 or more and that the technology could have been used on Kes too. Otherwise Suspiria herself, Q or the good old Voyager Doc could have come up with something. After all, Spock died and was resurrected and that was more unbelievable than a prolonging of Kes's lifespan. |
Don't use it if I don't have anything else? How about I do what I want, because you don't control me? 
Second of all, the lifespan was a factor. She would be dead before they reached home and knowing you, you would have complained about that. The scenarios you listed are ridiculous BTW.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:18 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | The scenarios you listed are ridiculous BTW. |
At least I'm not alone in that...
| Founder wrote: | | Second of all, the lifespan was a factor. She would be dead before they reached home and knowing you, you would have complained about that. |
This is true as well...I didn't think about that...Now, granted, if the crew would have gotten home EXACTLY at the same time as they did if Kes were still on board, she would have still been alive...BUT on the verge of dying, so it really doesn't matter...Because all the excitement of reaching Earth and the new people causing excitement in her would likely have killed her...LOL 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:06 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | Have you watched the episodes "Warlord", "The Swarm", "Before And After","Darkling" and the first part of "Scorpion"?
I did and only three were memorable. The Swarm? Memorable thanks to the Doctor. Darkling? Memorable thanks to the doctor. The first part of Scorpion? Species 8472 and the Borg fighting. None were good because of Kes.
How do you know that Kes is hard to write about? Have you ever tried to write a story about her? Skilled writers like Greg Cox and Christie Golden had no problems in coming up with excellent Kes stories, writing good Kes stories wasn't any problems for Madame Taylor either before she and her colleagues decided that it was soooooooo difficult to come up with Kes stories.
How do I know? Because I asked you to write me a short summary on a future episode about her. Any and you didn't do it.
As for the nine-year lifespan, don't use it as a bad excuse to get rid of her if you don't have anything else to come up with. It wouldn't have been any problems to prolong her lifespan because, as it was stated in the excellent episode "Cold Fire", the Ocampa on Suspiria's array could live untile they were 20 or more and that the technology could have been used on Kes too. Otherwise Suspiria herself, Q or the good old Voyager Doc could have come up with something. After all, Spock died and was resurrected and that was more unbelievable than a prolonging of Kes's lifespan. |
Don't use it if I don't have anything else? How about I do what I want, because you don't control me?
Second of all, the lifespan was a factor. She would be dead before they reached home and knowing you, you would have complained about that. The scenarios you listed are ridiculous BTW. |
No, my scenarios are not ridiculous.
At least I'm using my imagination to come up with constructive ideas for Kes, ideas that are adapted to what's been already stated in different episodes of Star Trek Voyager. The only thing you got is your loathing and dislike of the character Kes, therefore it's very easy for you to put down, question and criticize everything I can come up with.
If there's anything ridiculous, then it is TIIC:s bad habit to dress some of the main characters in catsuits and high heels. Then there's always the possibility to discuss some rather unrealistic aspects of the series, like a walking, talking computer-generated image like The Doc, or the Pah-Wraits and that whole scenario, Spocks resurrection and people being turned to lizards and transformed back again. To be honest, those things doesn't bother me as I see it as part of the charm of Star Trek but they are more unrealistic than a prolonging of Kes's lifespan.
I have no problem to come up with future scenarios and future stories about Kes, in fact I have already written two such stories. My only problem when it comes to writing Voyager stories is the damage made to some of the other Voyager characters. Paris-Torres "married with children" which makes two of the best action characters obsolete, C/7, Neelix's leaving, the split up of the crew after "Endgame" and the further scenario in the "Voyager Relaunch" books. Therefore, my future stories will only be about Kes, maybe some of the old favorite characters who are not baby-sitters, teachers, laboratory rats or stranded on asteroids might show up.
There's no doubt that I'm the constructive guy here and being constructive and coming up with constructive ideas is not ridiculous.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:13 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | The scenarios you listed are ridiculous BTW. |
At least I'm not alone in that...
| Founder wrote: | | Second of all, the lifespan was a factor. She would be dead before they reached home and knowing you, you would have complained about that. |
This is true as well...I didn't think about that...Now, granted, if the crew would have gotten home EXACTLY at the same time as they did if Kes were still on board, she would have still been alive...BUT on the verge of dying, so it really doesn't matter...Because all the excitement of reaching Earth and the new people causing excitement in her would likely have killed her...LOL |
So someone dying is something to laugh about? I don't think so, even if it happen to be a fictional character. I don't find it funny either when someone is fired for no reason at all and people applauds it. In fact, people without any compassion annoys me. Fortunately, I don't have such persons in my neighborhood and I'm happy for that.
Besides that, I do find your made-up scenario a bit exaggerated and silly, definitely more ridiculous than my constructive suggestions for a prolonging of Kes's lifespan.
"Out in the street somebody's crying,
Out in the night the fires burn,
Maybe tonight somebody's crying,
Reached the point of no return.
Oh - my eyes they see but I can't believe,
Oh - my heart is heavy as I turn my back and leave."
"Sea Of Madness"
Iron Maiden
Last edited by Lynx on Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:19 pm |
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Hmmm... Three posts in a row? Try not to do that from now on 
Everyone: This is a DISCUSSION forum, we are all allowed to present ideas and thoughts and opinions. Also, posting "Well that's stupid, and my idea is better" is also not something we encourage . Let's try to be nice from now on peopl.
Also no one was "laughing" at the joke of someone Dying. And NO ONE was acing with out compassion, Lynx, you shouldn't make such acuassations...
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:42 am |
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| lynx wrote: | The only thing you got is your loathing and dislike of the character Kes, therefore it's very easy for you to put down, question and criticize everything I can come up with.
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And you must not know how to read...Or you have a bad memory or something, because I distinctly recall Founder saying in previous posts that he doesn't loath Kes, or hate her...You've just been putting such words in all of our mouths...
| lynx wrote: | | So someone dying is something to laugh about? I don't think so, even if it happen to be a fictional character. |
Hmm...definitely not a real person.
| lynx wrote: |
I don't find it funny either when someone is fired for no reason at all and people applauds it. |
And again, she was fired without compassion? I mean, what has brought you to these conclusions? The character wasn't going in the direction that they wanted her to go, THEY decided that there weren't enough stories that could take the character where THEY wanted her to go...so the alternative is to leave her on as a character, but just never show her but every so often...OR get rid of her because she would be taking up space just sitting there doing nothing...They obviously chose the latter...
It was a difficult choice. They all said so. And nobody here has applauded anybody getting fired without compassion...especially since nobody was fired for no good reason...or without compassion.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:25 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | The only thing you got is your loathing and dislike of the character Kes, therefore it's very easy for you to put down, question and criticize everything I can come up with.
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And you must not know how to read...Or you have a bad memory or something, because I distinctly recall Founder saying in previous posts that he doesn't loath Kes, or hate her...You've just been putting such words in all of our mouths...
| lynx wrote: | | So someone dying is something to laugh about? I don't think so, even if it happen to be a fictional character. |
Hmm...definitely not a real person.
| lynx wrote: |
I don't find it funny either when someone is fired for no reason at all and people applauds it. |
And again, she was fired without compassion? I mean, what has brought you to these conclusions? The character wasn't going in the direction that they wanted her to go, THEY decided that there weren't enough stories that could take the character where THEY wanted her to go...so the alternative is to leave her on as a character, but just never show her but every so often...OR get rid of her because she would be taking up space just sitting there doing nothing...They obviously chose the latter...
It was a difficult choice. They all said so. And nobody here has applauded anybody getting fired without compassion...especially since nobody was fired for no good reason...or without compassion. |
Well, neither "Founder", nor you have much sympathy for the character Kes, otherwise you wouldn't twist youself inside-out in coming up with excuses for TIIC:s rude behavior.
This link http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/3939/lien.htm tells the story of how and why Jennifer Lien was fired, her feelings about it and the other cast members too.
Of course, TIIC fired her without compassion. They only care about their wallets and the people who are very close to them. She was kicked out like a piece of garbage after three years of excellent work. And you and "Founder" don't seem to have any compassion for her either. Correct me if I'm wrong but you were and still are perfectly happy that she was booted out and think that TIIC did the right thing.
They could have done something else than "letting her sit around and taking up space". They could have written some good stories about her! After all, they had no problem coming up with stories and episodes for weak second-hand characters as Naomi Wildman, Icheb and Vorik (I wonder why Vorik did get so much screen time  ). That wouldn't have been so diificult for such skilled writers or..........
And if they "couldn't come up with stories" as they claim in their silly propaganda tales, then the writers should have been fired and replaced by people who could write. As a matter of fact, tjhey didn't have any problems coming up with stories until they were ordered by TIIC that they couldn't come up with stories about Kes.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:43 am |
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This is going in circles Everyone has an opinion about Kes. it shouldn't even lead into a big arguement lolz...
They wanted to get rid of Jennifer lien because she doesn't have big boobs like Jeri Ryan. That's men for you. They don't think with personality. They go for the boobs. But, that's just my opinion. I like Jeri don't get me wrong.
I guess it would be hard to write for cause she was only suppose to live nine years. Plus, she started to have what these new powers that kept her from able to on Voyager. So , Kes left in order to protect voyager.
I can see lynx side, voyager2004 and Founder's side. You all have great sights into this. But, we can't do anything now about it. It is over and done with.
Last edited by Leo Wyatt on Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:43 am |
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(Edited due didn't mean to double post. Computer glitch)
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:14 am |
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I dunno. Complaining about kes's departure from the show is a bit like complaining that Ford dropped the Capri models due to dropping sales. Both events happened many years ago and I don't see where this is going.
BTW, the actor looked very cute in the final eps of season 3 when she had longer red hair and a more mature looking overall figure I thought that was much sexier than her earlier looking child figure.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:39 am |
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I don't care if Kes was kicked out 1000 years ago. An unjustice will not be justified because some lousy years have passed. The day B&B are booted out and Kes is back in books or possible movies, then I might lay this case to rest but not as long as there are so many misunderstandings, false rumors and wrong statements about it going around.
And I want to keep the memory of Kes alive. She will not be forgotten. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Park/1964/
Besides that, it did ruin Voyager for me when Kes was booted out.
I have a feeling that Leo Wyatt is correct about the reason for the "change". TIIC have hinted it from time to time but don't have the guts or aren't honest enough to stand for it.
But it has nothing to do with the lifespan. It was a mistake but could have been corrected because the Ocampa can live longer, like the Ocampa on Suspiria's array. There were hints that they were going to prolong her lifespan in episodes like "Cold Fire", Before And After" and "Scorpion.
As for her powere, they were no threat for the ship until they came up with that ridiculous scenario in "The Gift" just to get rid of her as soon as possible.
When they decided to bring in Seven, the first choice for the one who had to go was Kim but they changed that when an inside poll among the staff of a silly magazine showed him among the "50 most handsome". TIIC are more for looks than for good characters and good stories.
As for Kes's hair, I liked the short hair better. She was more Kes in that.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:25 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | | After all, they had no problem coming up with stories and episodes for weak second-hand characters as Naomi Wildman, Icheb and Vorik (I wonder why Vorik did get so much screen time ). |
Edit - fixed quote to make it normal.
That's because they weren't on the show EVERY episode...so they had a good episode every ONCE in a while...Duh. And Kes had more screen time than Vorik, so you're implying at something stupid. So what he was on the show. What if he REALLY wanted to do it and just used his mother to get on the show? I would have taken advantage of it...maybe he did too.
| lynx wrote: | | As a matter of fact, tjhey didn't have any problems coming up with stories until they were ordered by TIIC that they couldn't come up with stories about Kes. |
Now, that's just pure speculation. There's certainly no proof about that, and you're just speculating. I'm sure stories did come in, but if they didn't like them, or take the character where they wanted to go, then guess what, there wasn't a story, now was there?
| lynx wrote: | But it has nothing to do with the lifespan. It was a mistake but could have been corrected because the Ocampa can live longer, like the Ocampa on Suspiria's array. There were hints that they were going to prolong her lifespan in episodes like "Cold Fire", Before And After" and "Scorpion.
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But it does...The Ocampa CAN live longer, THANKS TO SUSPIRIA! That's the only reason we saw that they live longer. Otherwise there wasn't an Ocampa that lived longer than 9 years. There were no such hints that they were GOING to do it, but that they were looking for ways to do it. And then they decided against it. As you obviously saw.
Oh, and she looked better with long hair...more mature, and just sexier. I hate that boyish hair cut on females... 
Last edited by Voyager2004 on Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:16 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | [quote='"lynx"]After all, they had no problem coming up with stories and episodes for weak second-hand characters as Naomi Wildman, Icheb and Vorik (I wonder why Vorik did get so much screen time ). |
That's because they weren't on the show EVERY episode...so they had a good episode every ONCE in a while...Duh. And Kes had more screen time than Vorik, so you're implying at something stupid. So what he was on the show. What if he REALLY wanted to do it and just used his mother to get on the show? I would have taken advantage of it...maybe he did too.
| lynx wrote: | | As a matter of fact, tjhey didn't have any problems coming up with stories until they were ordered by TIIC that they couldn't come up with stories about Kes. |
Now, that's just pure speculation. There's certainly no proof about that, and you're just speculating. I'm sure stories did come in, but if they didn't like them, or take the character where they wanted to go, then guess what, there wasn't a story, now was there?
| lynx wrote: | But it has nothing to do with the lifespan. It was a mistake but could have been corrected because the Ocampa can live longer, like the Ocampa on Suspiria's array. There were hints that they were going to prolong her lifespan in episodes like "Cold Fire", Before And After" and "Scorpion.
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But it does...The Ocampa CAN live longer, THANKS TO SUSPIRIA! That's the only reason we saw that they live longer. Otherwise there wasn't an Ocampa that lived longer than 9 years. There were no such hints that they were GOING to do it, but that they were looking for ways to do it. And then they decided against it. As you obviously saw.
Oh, and she looked better with long hair...more mature, and just sexier. I hate that boyish hair cut on females... [/quote]
As for Vorik, well when Big Mama was out, his screen time vanished until almost nothing.
Naomi Wildman was showing up in almost every episode in season 4-5. kes had definitely more screen time in seasons 1-3 but the amount of screen time for a on-main character like Naomi was so high that it was ridiculous.
You are sure that stories came in. In that case, why didn't they use them? Because the only thing they had decided for Kes was that they wanted to get rid of her for reasons already mentioned. It wasn't lack of stories, it was because someone had to make room for TIIC:s new favorite.
The Ocampa could live longer thanks to the TECHNOLOGY Suspiria provided them with. So there was no problem for the Voyager Doc to come up with something similar. And he would have succeded if Kes had remained in the series. They tried in "Before And After" and they tried again in "Scorpion" so sooner or later it would have been solved. besides that, Voyager could have run into Suspiria again who could have fixed it. Or Q. Or maybe Super-seven could have come up with something. She could fix anything, from the warp engines to janeway's malfunctioning hair-dryer and she did bring neelix back to life. Her Borg technology could have been used for Kes too (and Seven would have become my favorite after Kes).
kes was OK with long hair but she was more personal, more Kes with the short haircut which did look good on her.
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:23 pm |
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| Quote: | | Naomi Wildman was showing up in almost every episode in season 4-5. kes had definitely more screen time in seasons 1-3 but the amount of screen time for a on-main character like Naomi was so high that it was ridiculous. |
Why is this ridiculous?
There were FORTY reoccuring characters in DS9 who have appeared in two or more episodes. In fact...Take a look at this list...
Gul Dukat
Appeared in 33 Episodes
Damar
23 Episodes
Female Changeling
15 Episodes
Elim Garak
33 Episodes
Gowron
7 Episodes
Michael Eddington
9 Episodes
Leeta
15 Episodes
Martok
24 Episodes
Morn
91 Episodes
Nog
44 Episodes
Keiko O'Brien
18 Episodes
Rom
31 Episodes
Weyoun
24 Episodes
Winn Adami
14 Episodes
Kasidy Yates
15 Episodes
Then, again...DS9 was known for its many reoccuring characters, with up to seventeen of them in a single episode. NONE of these characters were main characters and still look at the numbers. It doesn't matter...All of these characters are great. I don't find a problem with using a minor character. I don't know why you do. It helps develop the other characters, as well. While, Kes might have not gotten enough screen time, what can you do about it? VOY is over...Write more stories, if you want to...
-------signature-------
You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:35 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | | As for Vorik, well when Big Mama was out, his screen time vanished until almost nothing. |
Hmm...and if "big mama" wasn't working for the show much anymore, then his contact for getting on the show was gone...now wasn't it? Therefore making it a bit harder for him to get himself on the show...DUH... 
| lynx wrote: | | Naomi Wildman was showing up in almost every episode in season 4-5. kes had definitely more screen time in seasons 1-3 but the amount of screen time for a on-main character like Naomi was so high that it was ridiculous. |
First of all, it doesn't matter how many times Naomi was on the show in those seasons...they wanted her to identify with Seven...so what's your point? There isn't one...and now, thanks to the poster above me, he's right...it does build character in more than one person. It helped with Seven in a few episodes, and Janeway in "Dark Frontier." We saw them interact...it was neat. But from the poster above me, he listed MANY more people with MANY more appearances in just DS9 alone.
| lynx wrote: | | You are sure that stories came in. In that case, why didn't they use them? |
Now who's turning words around...Maybe I didn't make myself clear in saying what I said...but the way I meant what I said was speculation. Of course Trek has TONS of people sending in ideas and stories and such for the writers to go off of. Or from those that are actually good enough, sell to Trek...(I actually stumbled, literally, across this guys page that had tried to sell MANY stories to Trek for Voyager and DS9, but only succeeded with 2 episodes for DS9 and none for VOY, and he even posted most of them on his site...anyway,) that proves to me at least that there were plenty of people sending in ideas, and I would be negligible if I completely dismissed the idea that people sent in ideas for Kes...
| lynx wrote: | | The Ocampa could live longer thanks to the TECHNOLOGY Suspiria provided them with. |
It's NOT technology that Suspiria helped the Ocampa with...why can't you get off of the technology idea from SUSPIRIA?!
| lynx wrote: | | and they tried again in "Scorpion" |
What episode of Scorpion are you watching? Because they most CERTAINLY did not try to prolong Kes' life after the episode "Before and After" that aired 5 episodes before Scorpion...They definitely didn't try again in Scorpion...you're VERY mistaken...
| lynx wrote: | | besides that, Voyager could have run into Suspiria again who could have fixed it. |
Really? Now, that really couldn't happen, because after Voyager left Suspiria's array, they got FARTHER away from her, why would they run into her again? HOW would they run into her again? It's not like her array is capable of Transwarp speed and got in front of Voyager so that they could "run" into her.......again ......She tried to kill the crew once...I don't think she would have let herself fail again...so, there it goes again with not being believable...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:55 am |
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| Quote: | | Lynx wrote: | | Voyager2004 wrote: | | [quote='"lynx"]After all, they had no problem coming up with stories and episodes for weak second-hand characters as Naomi Wildman, Icheb and Vorik (I wonder why Vorik did get so much screen time ). |
That's because they weren't on the show EVERY episode...so they had a good episode every ONCE in a while...Duh. And Kes had more screen time than Vorik, so you're implying at something stupid. So what he was on the show. What if he REALLY wanted to do it and just used his mother to get on the show? I would have taken advantage of it...maybe he did too.
| lynx wrote: | | As a matter of fact, tjhey didn't have any problems coming up with stories until they were ordered by TIIC that they couldn't come up with stories about Kes. |
Now, that's just pure speculation. There's certainly no proof about that, and you're just speculating. I'm sure stories did come in, but if they didn't like them, or take the character where they wanted to go, then guess what, there wasn't a story, now was there?
| lynx wrote: | But it has nothing to do with the lifespan. It was a mistake but could have been corrected because the Ocampa can live longer, like the Ocampa on Suspiria's array. There were hints that they were going to prolong her lifespan in episodes like "Cold Fire", Before And After" and "Scorpion.
|
But it does...The Ocampa CAN live longer, THANKS TO SUSPIRIA! That's the only reason we saw that they live longer. Otherwise there wasn't an Ocampa that lived longer than 9 years. There were no such hints that they were GOING to do it, but that they were looking for ways to do it. And then they decided against it. As you obviously saw.
Oh, and she looked better with long hair...more mature, and just sexier. I hate that boyish hair cut on females... |
As for Vorik, well when Big Mama was out, his screen time vanished until almost nothing.
Naomi Wildman was showing up in almost every episode in season 4-5. kes had definitely more screen time in seasons 1-3 but the amount of screen time for a on-main character like Naomi was so high that it was ridiculous.
You are sure that stories came in. In that case, why didn't they use them? Because the only thing they had decided for Kes was that they wanted to get rid of her for reasons already mentioned. It wasn't lack of stories, it was because someone had to make room for TIIC:s new favorite.
The Ocampa could live longer thanks to the TECHNOLOGY Suspiria provided them with. So there was no problem for the Voyager Doc to come up with something similar. And he would have succeded if Kes had remained in the series. They tried in "Before And After" and they tried again in "Scorpion" so sooner or later it would have been solved. besides that, Voyager could have run into Suspiria again who could have fixed it. Or Q. Or maybe Super-seven could have come up with something. She could fix anything, from the warp engines to janeway's malfunctioning hair-dryer and she did bring neelix back to life. Her Borg technology could have been used for Kes too (and Seven would have become my favorite after Kes).
kes was OK with long hair but she was more personal, more Kes with the short haircut which did look good on her. |
Agreed on most points especially the ones about Naomi. She really didn't do anything for the show and was of no value.
Also I wonder if this was brannon bragga's move not jeri taylor's because a lot of things changed in the show that I didn't approve of. Frequent 'hopings' to return home, too much and became predictable, bipolar janeway, lame characters such as naomi and the borg 'children', but probably most stupid thing which can be summed up in one word: BORG.
In any case, B&B are no more simply because star trek is no more, and the day trek becomes something again I hope B&B are NOT producers/writers/directors.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:33 am |
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And what would be even more funny, is if Star Trek does come back and comes back with a bang...what would be funny is if B&B are at the helm...or at least still involved...that would just light some people's fire if it comes back strong and they're still there...
| prankishsmart wrote: | | because a lot of things changed in the show that I didn't approve of. |
At least they didn't need your approval then...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:48 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | | As for Vorik, well when Big Mama was out, his screen time vanished until almost nothing. |
Hmm...and if "big mama" wasn't working for the show much anymore, then his contact for getting on the show was gone...now wasn't it? Therefore making it a bit harder for him to get himself on the show...DUH...
| lynx wrote: | | Naomi Wildman was showing up in almost every episode in season 4-5. kes had definitely more screen time in seasons 1-3 but the amount of screen time for a on-main character like Naomi was so high that it was ridiculous. |
First of all, it doesn't matter how many times Naomi was on the show in those seasons...they wanted her to identify with Seven...so what's your point? There isn't one...and now, thanks to the poster above me, he's right...it does build character in more than one person. It helped with Seven in a few episodes, and Janeway in "Dark Frontier." We saw them interact...it was neat. But from the poster above me, he listed MANY more people with MANY more appearances in just DS9 alone.
| lynx wrote: | | You are sure that stories came in. In that case, why didn't they use them? |
Now who's turning words around...Maybe I didn't make myself clear in saying what I said...but the way I meant what I said was speculation. Of course Trek has TONS of people sending in ideas and stories and such for the writers to go off of. Or from those that are actually good enough, sell to Trek...(I actually stumbled, literally, across this guys page that had tried to sell MANY stories to Trek for Voyager and DS9, but only succeeded with 2 episodes for DS9 and none for VOY, and he even posted most of them on his site...anyway,) that proves to me at least that there were plenty of people sending in ideas, and I would be negligible if I completely dismissed the idea that people sent in ideas for Kes...
| lynx wrote: | | The Ocampa could live longer thanks to the TECHNOLOGY Suspiria provided them with. |
It's NOT technology that Suspiria helped the Ocampa with...why can't you get off of the technology idea from SUSPIRIA?!
| lynx wrote: | | and they tried again in "Scorpion" |
What episode of Scorpion are you watching? Because they most CERTAINLY did not try to prolong Kes' life after the episode "Before and After" that aired 5 episodes before Scorpion...They definitely didn't try again in Scorpion...you're VERY mistaken...
| lynx wrote: | | besides that, Voyager could have run into Suspiria again who could have fixed it. |
Really? Now, that really couldn't happen, because after Voyager left Suspiria's array, they got FARTHER away from her, why would they run into her again? HOW would they run into her again? It's not like her array is capable of Transwarp speed and got in front of Voyager so that they could "run" into her.......again ......She tried to kill the crew once...I don't think she would have let herself fail again...so, there it goes again with not being believable... |
You are coming up with obstacles for a prolonging of Kes's lifespan just for the sake of it.
To make it simple, if I had been in charge of Voyager, I would have fixed the problem with the lifespan very easy. There's not a problem here, it's just about will, skill and imagination.
An example, when Leonard Nimoy didn't want to be Spock anymore, they killed off Spock to the chagrin of many Trek fans. Then they realized that Star trek wouldn't be the same without Spock so they persuaded Nimoy to come back and be Spock again. When he accepted, they just brought him back. He was resurrected in one of the most unbeilevable stories ever in Star Trek. So there would have been no problems to prolong Kes's lifespan. as I've stated before, they could have ran into Suspiria again because she lived in another dimension and was not limited to Ocampa space, The Doc could have come up with something or Q could have done it for some strange reason so the final conclusion is: The Ocampa lifespan was not the reason to get rid of Kes. It could have been fixed without any problems if TIIC really had wanted to do it.
And Founder, it's not about how many extras this show here and thay show there had, it's about TIIC first kicking out a main character because of budget reasons (as they sometimes claim) and then using a bunch of extras so often that they become almost as main characters. Those extras didn't work for free but this time there were no money problem so where's the logic in TIIC:s actions?
Maybe DS9 had some decent extras, Voyager hadn't.
Voyager is over, yes but TIIC:s stupidities is still a dark shadow over the show and what have come after it. The show is still discussed on forums like this and poor Kes is still dissmissed and treated like something the cat dragged in while TIIC:s pathetic explanations and condemning of a a character they once created are referred to as "truth" among the "believers". Therefore The Lynx's presence is necessary to point out some errors and put some things right
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:06 pm |
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| lynx wrote: | | as I've stated before, they could have ran into Suspiria again because she lived in another dimension and was not limited to Ocampa space, |
She doesn't live in another dimension! You totally need to re-watch these episodes before you remark about them...The Male Caretaker said they were "travelers" or "explorers" from a distant galaxy. And she was definitely part of this dimension.
| lynx wrote: | | The Doc could have come up with something |
He tried...remember? And he failed...remember?
But if you think about it, it also took him until she was almost dead to figure out a way...and even then it failed...
| lynx wrote: | | then using a bunch of extras so often that they become almost as main characters. |
They definitely weren't used so often that they almost became main characters....Martok was used so much in DS9 he might as well have been a main character. That's a better example than any of Voyager's recurring guests...
| lynx wrote: | Therefore The Lynx's presence is necessary to point out some errors and put some things right
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And make people start to dislike the memory of Kes.
Example: You said there were no pictures with her an the entire cast, yet in 10 minutes time I found several pictures, that I also posted, with her and the cast.
So the Memory of Kes is still alive and flowing, but you're tarnishing it by making your claims and disliking those who run Trek for just one action.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:22 pm |
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Didn't that Suspblah chick live in subspace or something Trekish like that?
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:04 am |
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Eh, it's really hard to say...I would have to definitely say no to living in subspace, but I do believe that she was a non-coporeal life form...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:13 am |
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| Quote: | | Exosia was home of the Caretaker's mate, Suspiria. It was a subspace layer and was described as a realm of pure thought. |
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Exosia
Voyager2004 is right on all accounts about Kes. This obsession with Kes is unhealthy first of all. I mean, I'm not even this obsessed with the Dominion. I won't cry because they lost the war. Even though it was a fluke.
Kes was not that interesting of a character. You're trying to put her in the ranks of like Kirk, Sisko, Picard, Seven of Nine. Kes will always be remembered as the tomboyish alien. Who...didn't even look alien minus the fact that she had weird ears. At least the Bajorans, who did look Human, were given an alien culture.
| Quote: | | And Founder, it's not about how many extras this show here and thay show there had, it's about TIIC first kicking out a main character because of budget reasons (as they sometimes claim) and then using a bunch of extras so often that they become almost as main characters. Those extras didn't work for free but this time there were no money problem so where's the logic in TIIC:s actions? |
What are you babbling about? Why did you target me? I didn't say anything about minor characters in DS9...
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:26 am |
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Hmmm... poor argument, no matter how many times they appear, Guest stars are paid less then a main character. So for the money of Say, one episode for Kes to appear, Vorrik will be in about half a dozen or so.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:47 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Quote: | | Exosia was home of the Caretaker's mate, Suspiria. It was a subspace layer and was described as a realm of pure thought. |
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Exosia
Voyager2004 is right on all accounts about Kes. This obsession with Kes is unhealthy first of all. I mean, I'm not even this obsessed with the Dominion. I won't cry because they lost the war. Even though it was a fluke.
Kes was not that interesting of a character. You're trying to put her in the ranks of like Kirk, Sisko, Picard, Seven of Nine. Kes will always be remembered as the tomboyish alien. Who...didn't even look alien minus the fact that she had weird ears. At least the Bajorans, who did look Human, were given an alien culture.
| Quote: | | And Founder, it's not about how many extras this show here and thay show there had, it's about TIIC first kicking out a main character because of budget reasons (as they sometimes claim) and then using a bunch of extras so often that they become almost as main characters. Those extras didn't work for free but this time there were no money problem so where's the logic in TIIC:s actions? |
What are you babbling about? Why did you target me? I didn't say anything about minor characters in DS9... |
Sorry Founder, it was LaForge who came up with the DS9 extras. I was a bit tired and messed up the names. I hope you forgive me for that. I've corrected it in the original post.
I'm not trying to put Kes in the same position as Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway, who were the main stars of the different Trek series but Kes was a great character, definitely in the same class as most of the characters from all the Trek series and should not be dismissed as something unnecessary which was kicked out after three seasons.
By the way, there's nothing wrng with my health, I'm perfectly all right, thank you.
As for the Dominion, they were never humiliated and ruined the way Kes was. Even if they lost, they lost with dignity and there will probably be someone who will come up with some good book where the Dominion will play an important role.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:02 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | | as I've stated before, they could have ran into Suspiria again because she lived in another dimension and was not limited to Ocampa space, |
She doesn't live in another dimension! You totally need to re-watch these episodes before you remark about them...The Male Caretaker said they were "travelers" or "explorers" from a distant galaxy. And she was definitely part of this dimension.
| lynx wrote: | | The Doc could have come up with something |
He tried...remember? And he failed...remember?
But if you think about it, it also took him until she was almost dead to figure out a way...and even then it failed...
| lynx wrote: | | then using a bunch of extras so often that they become almost as main characters. |
They definitely weren't used so often that they almost became main characters....Martok was used so much in DS9 he might as well have been a main character. That's a better example than any of Voyager's recurring guests...
| lynx wrote: | Therefore The Lynx's presence is necessary to point out some errors and put some things right
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And make people start to dislike the memory of Kes.
Example: You said there were no pictures with her an the entire cast, yet in 10 minutes time I found several pictures, that I also posted, with her and the cast.
So the Memory of Kes is still alive and flowing, but you're tarnishing it by making your claims and disliking those who run Trek for just one action. |
Let me quote The Star Trek Encyclopedia: Exosia (where Suspiria lives is a subspace domain. Suspiria routinely traveled to the Ocampa array and sometimes took Ocampa from the array.
Which means that Suspiria wasn't limited to the place in normal space where the Ocampa Array was located. tereofre Suspiria could have encountered Voyager at another place. You should re-watch "Cold Fire" again.
As for The Doctor, who says that he always would have failed in coming up with something. Besides that, the Ocampa lifespan wasn't the reason for kicking out Kes.
In fact, it's all about who's in charge. If Berman had wanted to fire Mulgrew and have his grandma being the new captain of Voyager, he would have written off Janeway in the same silly way as Kes was, then come up with some even more silly story where the character played by his grandma had been transported 70 000 lightyears or so to Voyager to take over and there would have ben some fans who would have thought that "it was the right thing to do because Janeway was getting nowhere, the actress was lousy and those in charge did the right thing to bring in a new character".
As for "the memory of Kes", I'm definitely not the one who is tarnishing it. Those who are doing that are the people who conatantly bash the character or the actress, who thought that it was good that she left and who liked the scenario made up in "Fury" where Kes was totally destroyed and humiliated.
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