| was he? |
| yes |
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25% |
[ 14 ] |
| no |
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75% |
[ 42 ] |
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| Total Votes : 56 |
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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 Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:08 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | | Why? For writing that I find Harry better than some DS9 characters? I guess we are both a bit touchy when it comes to our favorite characters, aren't we? |
No because you make a personal and biased remark, with no proof or backup and pass it off as fact.
Hhhmm....wasn't that what you hated people who didn't like Kes for? Ironic... |
Wel, maybe I'm becoming like those people after dealing with them for some years. But never mind.
To be honest, I like DS9 and its characters. But I don't find the series as magnificent as some of its fans think it is and I do find the Voyager characters better than some of the DS9 characters.
Kira, Quark, Odo and Sisko were great (and Worf of course) but I don't find the rest any better than, let's say Harry or Neelix. I do think that Voyager had the best characters of any Trek serie. But that's my personal opinion.
As for your comments about "Seven saved the show", that's a myth created by TIIC and kept alive by some of the most devoted Seven Of Nine fans. Voyager wasn't in any crisis and there were no plans at all to cancel the show after season 3. Voyager did have lower ratings than TNG and DS9 but it still had a decent fanbase and if TIIC had concentrated on coming up with better stories and such, Voyager would have grown, just like TNG did.
It was actually expected that Voyager would have a smaller fanbase than TNG and DS9. It was after all, the third in line and the Star trek fanbase did already have their favorites in TNG and DS9, not to mention the old TOS fan brigade. Considering that, Voyager did pretty good for three years and there wasn't any "crisis", just TIIC panicking over their own unrealistic ratings dreams.
Seven did attract some new fans but there were also those who started to dislike the show because of the over-focus on her.
And the way the character Kes and the excellent actress Jennifer Lien was treated was a shame and disgust for Paramount.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:15 am |
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| Lynx wrote: | As for your comments about "Seven saved the show", that's a myth created by TIIC and kept alive by some of the most devoted Seven Of Nine fans. Voyager wasn't in any crisis and there were no plans at all to cancel the show after season 3. Voyager did have lower ratings than TNG and DS9 but it still had a decent fanbase and if TIIC had concentrated on coming up with better stories and such, Voyager would have grown, just like TNG did.
It was actually expected that Voyager would have a smaller fanbase than TNG and DS9. It was after all, the third in line and the Star trek fanbase did already have their favorites in TNG and DS9, not to mention the old TOS fan brigade. Considering that, Voyager did pretty good for three years and there wasn't any "crisis", just TIIC panicking over their own unrealistic ratings dreams.
Seven did attract some new fans but there were also those who started to dislike the show because of the over-focus on her. |
| Quote: | | Voyager 's ratings declined throughout its run, yet like The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine before it, it aired for seven seasons. While part of Voyager's critical failure has to do with its "alledged" weaker storylines and poor character development, there was a much wider selection of science fiction and fantasy programming on the air during its run, and TNG had no serious competition most of its run. As well, Voyager had to compete with its critically acclaimed "big sister" DS9. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Voyager
It seems like facts are against you. 
But then again, this isn't a topic about ratings and seven of nine, is it?
The fact of the matter is, if Harry was the weakest, why was he allowed to stay? Can ANYONE answer that question?
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:23 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | As for your comments about "Seven saved the show", that's a myth created by TIIC and kept alive by some of the most devoted Seven Of Nine fans. Voyager wasn't in any crisis and there were no plans at all to cancel the show after season 3. Voyager did have lower ratings than TNG and DS9 but it still had a decent fanbase and if TIIC had concentrated on coming up with better stories and such, Voyager would have grown, just like TNG did.
It was actually expected that Voyager would have a smaller fanbase than TNG and DS9. It was after all, the third in line and the Star trek fanbase did already have their favorites in TNG and DS9, not to mention the old TOS fan brigade. Considering that, Voyager did pretty good for three years and there wasn't any "crisis", just TIIC panicking over their own unrealistic ratings dreams.
Seven did attract some new fans but there were also those who started to dislike the show because of the over-focus on her. |
| Quote: | | Voyager 's ratings declined throughout its run, yet like The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine before it, it aired for seven seasons. While part of Voyager's critical failure has to do with its "alledged" weaker storylines and poor character development, there was a much wider selection of science fiction and fantasy programming on the air during its run, and TNG had no serious competition most of its run. As well, Voyager had to compete with its critically acclaimed "big sister" DS9. |
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Voyager
It seems like facts are against you.
But then again, this isn't a topic about ratings and seven of nine, is it?
The fact of the matter is, if Harry was the weakest, why was he allowed to stay? Can ANYONE answer that question? |
As for quoting Wikipedia, that's not the most convincing source on the net.
I could easily sign up for Wikipedia and go in and change that text totally, stating my opinion of the show and it's characters. The "facts" in Wikipedia are written by people like you and me and it's their opinions who are written there, not facts.
Harry was the weakest character but he was allowed to stay because of that stupid poll amog the staff at that silly "People's" magazine. TIIC, who have a sickly fascination for polls, ratings (except for the polls among the Trek fans) and cheap effects changed their minds about Harry's leaving and decided that he should stay.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:26 am |
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No, Wikipedia makes sure to back it up with facts. Yes, people will come in and screw it up, but they are adament about fixing it and try to get canon and proper information.
Also, I head this from another person on another site.
| Quote: | | Originally, Harry Kim, play by Garrett Wang, was to be written out of the show. However, at the last minute, Wang was named one of People Magazine's 50 most beautiful people. The producers decided to they could use the publicity from that, so they had to can someone else. It came down to Chakotay and Kes. Kenneth Biller and Jeri Taylor, two of the shows producers wanted Kes to stay, but Rick Berman decided that Kes's character was too hard to write for so she was fired. |
Is that what you are refering to?
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:28 am |
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Wiki is right, it pretty much says What I saw in interviews on the Voyager DVDs. They said ratings were going down, then they brought seven on. You could indeed change the text, but they'd change it back.
If you notice, the do quote sources, so it does contain facts.
Anyways This is about Kim being weak or not, lets discuss that shall we?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:31 am |
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They passed by a chance to get rid of Robert Beltran?! Sick.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:09 am |
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| Founder wrote: | No, Wikipedia makes sure to back it up with facts. Yes, people will come in and screw it up, but they are adament about fixing it and try to get canon and proper information.
Also, I head this from another person on another site.
| Quote: | | Originally, Harry Kim, play by Garrett Wang, was to be written out of the show. However, at the last minute, Wang was named one of People Magazine's 50 most beautiful people. The producers decided to they could use the publicity from that, so they had to can someone else. It came down to Chakotay and Kes. Kenneth Biller and Jeri Taylor, two of the shows producers wanted Kes to stay, but Rick Berman decided that Kes's character was too hard to write for so she was fired. |
Is that what you are refering to? |
Depends on who deliver the "canon and proper information". In this case they have probably swallowed TIIC:s pathetic propaganda or someone at "Wiki" is a season 4-7 fan.
They are not always so accurate when it comes to facts. The local "wiki" couldn't even get the flag of my home province right.
As for the "another source", well I've heard another thing about Taylor so I'm not so sure that she wanted Kes to stay. In fact, she has often defended the "annihilation" of Kes in public and have come up with the usual pathetic propaganda about it without hesitation and without showing any emotions or sympathy for the character or the actress.
But the information about "Peoples magazine" is probably correct as I've seen it in so many places. So typical for TIIC to let an inside poll in an idiotic magazine decide who would be kicked out or not. They are not as good when it comes to respecting the opinions of the fans, those who actually pay their b****y wages.
As for Berman, what does he know about writing? The only thing he cares about is money. He should sit on his a** and count his money and leave the writing to those who can write.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:38 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | Then live with it! Enjoy every moment of C/7 and be grateful for that "gift" they gave you.
Acceptance is surrender
Surrender is not an option. |
I do live with, because I'm a bigger person than to sit here and mope and whine and cry and complain about it to other people who probably don't care. Therefore wasting my time and making people dislike me. 
| Lord Borg wrote: | That one where the dude took over her body? the actress was good in that episode, I actually wasn't totaly bored by it.
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Yes, I totally loved that episode. She, the actress, did quite well in it...Very nicely done...But only one in a select few.
| Lynx wrote: | | Voyager wasn't in any crisis and there were no plans at all to cancel the show after season 3 |
They weren't in an immediate crisis, but they would have been if they continued on like they were. And you're right, I haven't heard that they were gonna cancel the show after season 3...it was probably after Season 4 they would have canceled it. Kind of like an ultimatum, "Improve your show or we're pulling you off the air. You have one season to do it in."
Hmm...doesn't that sound like a business?
| Lynx wrote: | | but it still had a decent fanbase and if TIIC had concentrated on coming up with better stories and such, Voyager would have grown, just like TNG did. |
They may have had a decent fanbase, but a fanbase isn't what it takes to keep a show going and running and all. Again, a business.
| Lynx wrote: | | As for quoting Wikipedia, that's not the most convincing source on the net. |
Why, because they disagree with you, too?
| Lynx wrote: | | In fact, she has often defended the "annihilation" of Kes in public and have come up with the usual pathetic propaganda about it without hesitation and without showing any emotions or sympathy for the character or the actress. |
Because she wasn't annihilated. That's why she "defends" it. And why do you need to show emotion or sympathy? It's a business. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to make something survive and continue on. It's not like it was a personal attack on Jennifer Lien like you make it out to be...it's a business.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:51 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Founder wrote: | No, Wikipedia makes sure to back it up with facts. Yes, people will come in and screw it up, but they are adament about fixing it and try to get canon and proper information.
Also, I head this from another person on another site.
| Quote: | | Originally, Harry Kim, play by Garrett Wang, was to be written out of the show. However, at the last minute, Wang was named one of People Magazine's 50 most beautiful people. The producers decided to they could use the publicity from that, so they had to can someone else. It came down to Chakotay and Kes. Kenneth Biller and Jeri Taylor, two of the shows producers wanted Kes to stay, but Rick Berman decided that Kes's character was too hard to write for so she was fired. |
Is that what you are refering to? |
Depends on who deliver the "canon and proper information". In this case they have probably swallowed TIIC:s pathetic propaganda or someone at "Wiki" is a season 4-7 fan.
They are not always so accurate when it comes to facts. The local "wiki" couldn't even get the flag of my home province right.
As for the "another source", well I've heard another thing about Taylor so I'm not so sure that she wanted Kes to stay. In fact, she has often defended the "annihilation" of Kes in public and have come up with the usual pathetic propaganda about it without hesitation and without showing any emotions or sympathy for the character or the actress.
But the information about "Peoples magazine" is probably correct as I've seen it in so many places. So typical for TIIC to let an inside poll in an idiotic magazine decide who would be kicked out or not. They are not as good when it comes to respecting the opinions of the fans, those who actually pay their b****y wages.
As for Berman, what does he know about writing? The only thing he cares about is money. He should sit on his a** and count his money and leave the writing to those who can write. |
Find other terms then swearing, we do not allow that kind of lanauge, typing the first one or two letters and staring the rest out is not allowed.
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harrykims#1fan
Fan Girl Muskateer
Joined: 08 Feb 2002
Posts: 2916
Location: Leicester UK
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| Sat Jun 17, 2006 7:38 pm |
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what was wrong with GW being one of the 50 most beautiful people?
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:18 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | Then live with it! Enjoy every moment of C/7 and be grateful for that "gift" they gave you.
Acceptance is surrender
Surrender is not an option. |
I do live with, because I'm a bigger person than to sit here and mope and whine and cry and complain about it to other people who probably don't care. Therefore wasting my time and making people dislike me.
| Lynx wrote: | | As for quoting Wikipedia, that's not the most convincing source on the net. |
Why, because they disagree with you, too?
| Lynx wrote: | | In fact, she has often defended the "annihilation" of Kes in public and have come up with the usual pathetic propaganda about it without hesitation and without showing any emotions or sympathy for the character or the actress. |
Because she wasn't annihilated. That's why she "defends" it. And why do you need to show emotion or sympathy? It's a business. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to make something survive and continue on. It's not like it was a personal attack on Jennifer Lien like you make it out to be...it's a business. |
I do prefer to be disliked by the season 4-7 fans who constantly trash my favorite than bowing for those who indirectly spit in my face and accept their solutions and indirect insults.
As for Wikipedia, read my comments in the other posts.
So being without emotions, trampling people underfoot, behaving like a sadistic moron and such are permitted if you do "business". Yeah right, Saddam did "business" too. No surprise that the world looks like it does when people are doing "business" all the time. But maybe I'm to decent to understand. Maybe I should start doing "business" too. My neighbor has a nice car.............
No, sorry. I cant and won't accept "business" as an excuse for treating other people badly.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:00 am |
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| lynx wrote: | I do prefer to be disliked by the season 4-7 fans who constantly trash my favorite than bowing for those who indirectly spit in my face and accept their solutions and indirect insults.
As for Wikipedia, read my comments in the other posts.
So being without emotions, trampling people underfoot, behaving like a sadistic moron and such are permitted if you do "business". Yeah right, Saddam did "business" too. No surprise that the world looks like it does when people are doing "business" all the time. But maybe I'm to decent to understand. Maybe I should start doing "business" too. My neighbor has a nice car.............
No, sorry. I cant and won't accept "business" as an excuse for treating other people badly.
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You still have yet to give me postive proof on how she was "mistreated" and "mis-used" and "trampled" under someone's foot. No proof = misunderstanding and ignorance. (AKA - Not knowing the whole bit of information.)
And if you feel the need to do "business" with your neighbors car, be my guest. Who am I to stop you but the police...Trust me, they won't show you compassion and they're just doing "business."
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:41 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | I do prefer to be disliked by the season 4-7 fans who constantly trash my favorite than bowing for those who indirectly spit in my face and accept their solutions and indirect insults.
As for Wikipedia, read my comments in the other posts.
So being without emotions, trampling people underfoot, behaving like a sadistic moron and such are permitted if you do "business". Yeah right, Saddam did "business" too. No surprise that the world looks like it does when people are doing "business" all the time. But maybe I'm to decent to understand. Maybe I should start doing "business" too. My neighbor has a nice car.............
No, sorry. I cant and won't accept "business" as an excuse for treating other people badly.
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You still have yet to give me postive proof on how she was "mistreated" and "mis-used" and "trampled" under someone's foot. No proof = misunderstanding and ignorance. (AKA - Not knowing the whole bit of information.)
And if you feel the need to do "business" with your neighbors car, be my guest. Who am I to stop you but the police...Trust me, they won't show you compassion and they're just doing "business." |
And you haven't given me proof of the opposite either.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:57 pm |
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| Lynx wrote: | | Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | I do prefer to be disliked by the season 4-7 fans who constantly trash my favorite than bowing for those who indirectly spit in my face and accept their solutions and indirect insults.
As for Wikipedia, read my comments in the other posts.
So being without emotions, trampling people underfoot, behaving like a sadistic moron and such are permitted if you do "business". Yeah right, Saddam did "business" too. No surprise that the world looks like it does when people are doing "business" all the time. But maybe I'm to decent to understand. Maybe I should start doing "business" too. My neighbor has a nice car.............
No, sorry. I cant and won't accept "business" as an excuse for treating other people badly.
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You still have yet to give me postive proof on how she was "mistreated" and "mis-used" and "trampled" under someone's foot. No proof = misunderstanding and ignorance. (AKA - Not knowing the whole bit of information.)
And if you feel the need to do "business" with your neighbors car, be my guest. Who am I to stop you but the police...Trust me, they won't show you compassion and they're just doing "business." |
And you haven't given me proof of the opposite either. |
You made the claim she was mistreated, the burden of proof is on you.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:33 am |
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| lynx wrote: | | And you haven't given me proof of the opposite either. |
I've given plenty...it's all on the DVD's. If you choose not to go get them, then it's on you...and even so, you claim to have heard the exact same things from those in charge, so you already have "my" proof...just from different areas, but from the same people.
| Puck wrote: |
You made the claim she was mistreated, the burden of proof is on you. |
LOL...thank you, I was actually gonna put that as well...but you beat me to it...lol...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:12 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | lynx wrote: | | And you haven't given me proof of the opposite either. |
I've given plenty...it's all on the DVD's. If you choose not to go get them, then it's on you...and even so, you claim to have heard the exact same things from those in charge, so you already have "my" proof...just from different areas, but from the same people.
| Puck wrote: |
You made the claim she was mistreated, the burden of proof is on you. |
LOL...thank you, I was actually gonna put that as well...but you beat me to it...lol... |
Of course she was mistreated. She was fired for no accptable reason at all after three years. That's what I call being mistreated.
The "information" on the DVD:s = TIIC:s propaganda fairy tales, as believable as the old Pravda.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:37 am |
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Hmmm, as long as we're just going to be talking about Kes, and not whether or not "Harry was the least popular character," then I'd suggest we move this to the Kes topic.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:19 am |
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Okay, on topic, I liked Harry. I didn't think he was the least popular character. But I'm sad to say that I thought Kes was since she was kicked off the show. I liked Kes, but I thought some of her storylines were a bit boring sadly to say. But liked the episode "Warlord} in the 3rd season where that guy took over her body. I thought Jennifer Lien did a very good job with acting so different from the role of Kes. And also the episode where I think it was alternative universe where her and Tom got together and had a child, and she kept aging. That was a good episode I thought.
But Harry Kin was an interesting character. He kind of represented all of us in some ways. The people who are young and sometimes unsure of ourselves. I thought he was kind of cute too.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:05 am |
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Harry wasn't the least popular character, the only one who was disliked by the fans in seasons 1-3 was Neelix (not by me, I liked both Harry and Neelix).
The problem with Harry was that his potential was never used in the series. he started up OK but then he became just like an older and tamer copy of Wesley Crusher and stayed that way during the series. Compare that with the books where Harry is actually doing something in many of them.
Kes wasn't the least popular character and itwas never a matter of popularity that she was kicked out. It was more a matter of stupid thinking by those in charge. Kes had a lot of good episodes where she did important things and she did actually save the ship on some occasions. She's also very prominent in the books where she plays an important role in most stories which contradicts the stupid tales which says that she was difficult to write for.
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Untitled
Commander
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 396
Location: abandoned
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| Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:46 pm |
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I truely have no idea if Harry was the least popular character on the show or not. And also I couldn't really say since I haven't done any research on it or I'm also not all of the fanbase. So I'm not equiped to answer this question.
| Lynx wrote: | | The problem with Harry was that his potential was never used in the series. he started up OK but then he became just like an older and tamer copy of Wesley Crusher and stayed that way during the series. Compare that with the books where Harry is actually doing something in many of them. |
- In many ways I agree. I think it's quite sad that he'd usually been looked over and was kind of the...nameless ensign. But a step further than that. IMO I think Harry was much less annoying that Wesley was. To me that is.
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