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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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 Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:44 pm Flag amendment needs one more vote to pass Senate |
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| Quote: | Flag amendment needs one more vote to pass Senate
The Senate is one vote away from passing a constitutional amendment that would ban desecration of the U.S. flag, the closest that amendment supporters have been to passage.
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=53486 |
I Hope they find that extra vote and finish the whole debate once and for all
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:48 pm |
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I do as well. Definitely.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:11 pm |
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I personally don't see the point of this, although I do find burning the flag a disgusting and cowardly act. If you don't like living in the US, then please leave. However, to ban burning the flag seems like a waste of time and energy. It's just a symbol.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:16 pm |
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Symbols are incredibly important.
Back when they had such things, the flag bearers in combat were the first targeted. Why? Because the mere sight of your nations flag can be more inspiring than any words.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
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And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:22 pm |
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Yes, but it's still a symbol. There are many American symbols, so should they all be made illegal to desecrate?
It seems kind of pointless to try to enforce this. I don't think it should be legal to desecrate it, but making it illegal? Blah.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:26 pm |
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This is the only one that is a representation of our entire nation as one, though. The 13 stripes, 50 stars, etc...
Burning a Dixie flag, or a Don't Tread on Me flag isn't going to invoke near the same emotion, or send the exact same message. From what I hear, though, America is unique in her... placing of importance on the flag.
I'm sure it has something to do with things like Iwo Jima, 9/11, etc...
A flag is also a standard, as I'm sure you already know.
Anyway, I wouldn't mind if it were to become illegal. Yes, people will still do it, but at least with it being illegal, action can be taken. Even if it is just a mere fine.
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | I don't think it should be legal to desecrate it, but making it illegal? Blah. |
Oh King of Contradictions, 
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:29 pm |
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Agreed, people fought and died for that very flag. The "symbol" when you burn it, you are buring the very idea of America.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:31 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | | Agreed, people fought and died for that very flag. The "symbol" when you burn it, you are buring the very idea of America. |
Which, btw! We are the only country to be founded purely on an ideal. (Idea)
Yes, so, bad T, back on topic.
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:06 pm |
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Symbols mean everything in a country. It is not only your representation, but a source of your pride, your heritage. Lets be honest here...most people don't burn the American flag to honor this country.
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:09 pm |
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I'm all for it. I just wonder...Who burns the flags? Besides terrorists, of course...Hmmmm...If you don't like America, why don't you move?
I agree. Symbols are very important. I have an American flag in my room.
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You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:17 pm |
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Yes, that's all well and good, because symbols are important, but I'm quite interested as to how "desecration" will be defined.
What happens if one wants to dispose of an old flag? Should it be thrown out? Recycled? Buried? Any of those options could be regarded as "desecration". Will there by specialised "flag disposal days" where people can drop off their flags at a disposal depot to be properly disposed of by civil servants? That would necessitate a "flag disposal" charge added to one's taxes, of course, since those civil servants won't work for free.... And if one's house burns down, they'll be sued for negligence because they failed to protect the flag before barely escaping with their lives.
And non-denominational-good-version-of-the-afterlife forbid, what if America finally decides to get a fifty-first state? That will be a lot of flags sitting around. Although theoretically I suppose they could be sold to one of the U.S.' allies, like Israel. They're eager enough to buy American fighter jets, so I'm sure that they wouldn't mind taking obsolete flags off of the U.S.' hands.
| La Forge wrote: | | Who burns the flags? Besides terrorists, of course...Hmmmm...If you don't like America, why don't you move? |
I'm rather certain that a terrorist is probably the sort of person who wouldn't burn a flag. They would have to be extremely stupid to do so, since it would call attention to them. There's nothing like burning a flag to say, "Hah hah, I'm a terrorist", so I think that real terrorists, having evaded authorities long enough to buy a flag, let alone of place of residence in which to hang it (and matches, for that matter) would be smart enough not to actually burn the flag.
No guarantees on tricking a passerby to do it for them though. 
I don't really like the "if you don't like it, leave" attitude. It sounds a lot like an excuse to change things for the worse. Shouldn't a country be welcoming to others? I can understand that a nation shouldn't capitulate to petulant demands and that it can't satisfy everyone, but this is America, the land of the Free.
From now on, it is America, the land of the Free As Long As You Don't Burn Your Flag, But if You Do We Have to Punish You.
People should have the freedom to burn their flag. Should they be allowed to light it on fire and run up and down the street yelling, "Burrrrrrrrrn, baby, burrrrrrn?!" No. That's called disrupting the peace, and I'd be all in favour of a law against that. But limiting someone's freedom to burn the flag is still the limiting of a freedom, even if it is disguised as "protection of America's sacred symbol".
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:35 pm |
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Disposing of an old flag isn't desecration. If you touch the flag against the ground and burn it, that's not desecration--that's what you're supposed to do.
Desecration of the flag, I would say, is the intentional abuse of the flag in malice. There's a difference between intentionally burning it in malice and burning a flag that's supposed to be burned in the proper way.
But I do agree with you. I would be interested in hearing their definition for it as well.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
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| Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:40 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | If you touch the flag against the ground and burn it, that's not desecration--that's what you're supposed to do. |
That's just an urban legend. If a flag touches the ground you just move it so that it isn't touching the ground anymore because it's disrespectful.
Anyways, aside from burning the old, worn out flags I oppose all burning of the flag. Whenever I see someone burning it I just want to lash out and grab them by the throat. I'll be glad when this passes.
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:15 pm |
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Are there many American citizens who do this?
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:09 am |
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This is fascist.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:59 am |
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Limiting a persons right to speed 100 mph down the highway is still limiting a persons freedom, yet we do it. Limiting the age for tobacco and alcohol is also limiting freedoms. Sometimes it's justified. We've always been a democratic nation. If the majority rules...
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Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:03 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | Limiting a persons right to speed 100 mph down the highway is still limiting a persons freedom, yet we do it. Limiting the age for tobacco and alcohol is also limiting freedoms. Sometimes it's justified. We've always been a democratic nation. If the majority rules... |
Speeding down a highway, tobacco, and alcohol are all activites or stimuli that can hurt someone else. Thus it's the nation's responsibility to protect everyone else by limiting those.
Burning a flag doesn't really hurt someone, unless one used the flag as some sort of flaming projectile, which would be both bad and cool to see at the same time. It is a valid political statement--maybe not a popular statement, but still, if someone wants to burn a flag, they should have the right to do it: it is their freedom of expression. Otherwise, the State is using politics to manipulate the law for their own purposes, and not for the greater expression of freedom. While it may be masqueraded as such, it is just a facade.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:18 pm |
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It is indeed, a Political statement. One that dishonors the people that fought and died for this country. It's interesting, what peoples views are, the ones that will burn the flag, but they wont leave the country, due to the very freedoms the flag repesents.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:46 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | | It is indeed, a Political statement. One that dishonors the people that fought and died for this country. It's interesting, what peoples views are, the ones that will burn the flag, but they wont leave the country, due to the very freedoms the flag repesents. |
People are allowed to verbally oppose the Iraq war, even though that could be perceived as dishonouring those who fought and died for America. How is this any different? Why limit flag burning but not political dissent?
The ultimate sign of freedom is when one allows someone the freedom to do something, even if one doesn't agree with their motives.
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Kyle Reese
Cadet Gunnery Sergeant
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 5672
Location: The United States of America
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:47 pm |
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What I don't understand is why people burn the American flag when the one they hate is President Bush...
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:58 pm |
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Would you rather they burned a gigantic Bush effigy?
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:01 pm |
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I hope it passes. While I know you can't force people to respect our country, or at least its past and what it stands for, I still think it is important that we as the majority let the world and our fellow countrymen know that Americans do care about their country and what it stands for.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:19 pm |
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I hope to God this bill doesn't pass. One good way to get people to burn flags is to make it illegal. They do it to rebel, if you tell them that they're allowed to do it, then the act will lose meaning to them.
They talk about desicration of the flag, this bill IS desicration of what the flag represents: FREEDOM. I find flag burning morally reprehensible, and I like nothing more than to see some vigilantes rough up flag burners; but the government should not restrict these freedoms legally.
One of my favorite sayings is "I may disagree with what you do; but I will defend, to the death, your right to do it!"
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Would you rather they burned a gigantic Bush effigy? |
I would. While I would find both acts appauling, at least the Bush effigy is not the symbol of a quarter millennium of liberty, freedom, justice, and thousands of soldiers who died to protect it.
I guess to sum it up, I hate flag burners; but I can't do a thing about it, nor should I.
Last edited by LightningBoy on Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:30 pm |
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| LightningBoy wrote: | One of my favorite sayings is "I may disagree with what you do; but I will defend, to the death, your right to do it!"
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Would you rather they burned a gigantic Bush effigy? |
I would. While I would find both acts appauling, at least the Bush effigy is not the symbol of a quarter millennium of liberty, freedom, justice, and thousands of soldiers who died to protect it. |
First off, wasn't it Voltaire who said that, but about the freedom of speech?
And secondly, I guess it's just I who would find both acts equally appaling, then. To the people in America who are burning the flag, it's a representation of the times in which we live and America's action during those times, not the United State's history. Most of the world views the flag via those terms, as well. Sure, it can be interpreted as the entire country and it's history, but that isn't the intent. At least not by people who burn it and actually want to live here. I don't get that personally, but that's what they say.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:45 pm |
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Actually it's
| Fran�ois-Marie Arouet AKA Voltaire wrote: | | I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. |
But I do agree with what both Hitchhiker and LightningBoy are saying. It will just end up causing more people to burn the flag simply because at this point it's disrespectful AND not allowed. Not to mention, as HH said, it impedes on one's right to freedom of expression.
I do not condone it, though.
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