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Puck
The Texan

Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:31 pm

I don't deny evolution, and it seems reasonable to me. However, I think we forget sometimes that it is only a theory, and a very incomplete one at that.

Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel

Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:13 pm

I got what I wrote off my site but yeah next time I will put in quotes. I am only human and make mistakes just everybody else. IntrepidISMe.

Puck
The Texan

Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:22 pm

I found the site that it was taken from for you.

http://www.iiw.org/terms.html#terms

At the bottom it notes:

Quote:

Terms of Use

All of the graphics contained in this site, including but not limited to icons, thumbnails, buttons, samples, etc., are copyright �2004 by It Is Written, Inc. Use is limited to the navigation of the site for informational purposes only. Reproduction is prohibited in any form, including, but not limited to: print media, digital media, videotape, Internet, television broadcast and satellite. You may not post or upload them to the Internet, nor use them on Internet web pages.

Please go back and edit your post so the article is no longer there, just give us a link.

lionhead
Rear Admiral

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:50 pm

Founder wrote:

lionhead wrote:

i never said it just appeared, that was you. All i said is there is proof the universe at least exists. My believes don't say something created the universe, you can't possibly know that. However people who confidently say the niverse was created by a god while there is no proof of that at all is in my eyes not very wise. Its ironic actually.

Um...if you don't believe God made it, then chances are, you subscribed to the "I believe it just popped up" theory. You didn't have to say it. There is proof the universe exists? So what? What does that have to do with anything? No one here is debating if the universe is real or not.

You can't possibly know that a creator didn't make the universe. See? When you argue like that, it just goes in circles. Try to add more. Instead of just saying "I don't think you all are wise."

There is no proof that God created the universe? Really? Got your eyes checked lately?

BTW, what you described is not ironic in the least.

Quote:

And what exactly would be the point of some supreme being creating one-celled organisms, then two-celled organisms, and rather "suddenly" vertebrates?

Many believe that God created evolution and let it take it's toll. Not that he sat and experimented, which is why it happened the way you decribed.

Founder
Dominion Leader

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant

Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:21 pm

lionhead wrote:

The difference is that i don't pretend to know what created the universe, i don't know what created the universe. All i know is hat the universe exists, and we live in it. From a certain time in earth's history we can guess what happened from Fossils we find, by looking at the solar system and studying earths geography. With that we can proof a very long time ago(certainly longer than the bible says) Dinosaurs where walking the earth, these dinosaurs had to come from somewhere and fossils have shown that a time even before dinosaurs small orgasms inhabited the water. We guess where that water came from, why our core is hot etc, but we do have proof of billions of years of development.

First of all, you mentioned the Bible, and I will comment on that at the end of my post. Simply because you proved something that I beleive.

Ok again, you're trying to prove if evolution is real or not. You're not answering my question and changing the subject. That doesn't doesn't look too good on your end. No one here is discussing if evolution on Earth is real or not. No one here is discussing how the Bible is wrong or not. We're discussing how the universe came to be without a creator. Actually, we're discussing how existance came to be.

You say you don't know what created the universe and only that we live in it. Yes, this is true, but we're questioning our existance. Not why, but HOW.

Yes, we can guess what happened with fossils or not, but nothing will ever prove how the universe came to be. That is my point and that is the paradox. Because scientists always need something as a catalyst. This exploded and made that. This evolved and became that. Etc. But "this" is never explained HOW it came to be. Because for them, there is always something before it.

To be fair, I'll say the paradox exists for God as well. Because if God did make everything, what made him? Then what made what created him? Etc.

Both Religion and science are at a brick wall with this.

All this to me, is coincidence(but thats just a guess). The start of the first life on earth was a coincidential reaction. The rest that followed is evolution. It just happened to work, if it didn't we wouldn't be debating about it right now. There are Billions of planets, its not so weird 1 or maybe even a few of these planets had a certain happening that caused life to emerge.

Ok....again, no one is debating how life on Earth came to be. At least, not in this topic. This is about the creation of existance and if God is involved or not. Does it prove his existance? Does it not? If you want a topic on Evolution on Earth, make another one.

So sure, i don't know the ultimate beginning(i don't even believe in the big bang), but i get a lot further back than you do, explaining all the evidence of it we found.

Oh? You get further back than me? You stop at the creation of Earth, I stop at the creation of existance. How exactly do you get further back then me? Nope, you don't.

You however say God created life and the universe, but you don't have anything to back that up. No proof at all, only tales about what certain people might have done in the past, but all very unlikely tales.

And you have...what? I haven't seen you offer anything.

So why is not believing in god blind to you? aren't you even more blinded?

No. Blindness is believing the universe popped up. Believing in something other than yourself in not blind, but strength.

Faith is something that you obviously do not understand.

Quote:

Trinity: Do you believe that Neo is going to end the war?
Ghost: Yes. I do.
Trinity: So do I. But I can't explain how or why.
Ghost: Kierkegaard reminds us that belief has nothing to do with how or why. Belief is beyond reason. I believe because it is absurd.
Trinity: You think it's crazy to believe it?
Ghost: To believe what? That a single man can stop an entire race of machines, and end a war that has endured for over a hundred years? Of course! It's complete lunacy. And that's why we must believe it will happen. Faith by its very nature must transcend logic.

I've noticed that aithiests are VERY resistant of the idea of admitting a creator made all of this, because they fear proving Religious people right in anyway or form. Just like religious people fear proving athiests right because it proves they are wrong. No one wants to prove themselves wrong or find common ground.

For example, lionhead hates Catholics. He once called me evil for simply being Catholic. He continues to mention the Bible, just like PranskishSmart did. He(lionhead) does not want to admit the possibility that a creator exists because in some small way, it proves the Catholics were right. I think you need to set your hatred aside and think about this from a philosphical point of view.

Now, I don't mean to sound mean in that last paragraph, but it is something I've noticed. The problem is, you(Athiests) believe that admitting a creator or a higher being made all of this means the religious people are right. No it doesn't first of all. Second of all, you all are under the impression that I'm talking about the Judeo-Christian God. No, I'm not. I'm simply talking about something higher. Something that transcends science. Something that transcends the provable. It could be nature itself. The mother spirit. Whatever you believe. What I'm saying is that there is something more. Thats it. You all are too busy hearing me say "Jesus is the light!!!!!!!" to understand what I'm trying to discuss. Thats a shame, because this does have the potential to be a really deep and thought provoking topic.

I have never once used the Bible, Torah, Koran, or any religious text as my "proof". So please stop using it as a rebuttle, because it makes little sense.

"I believe someone created the universe because the universe just pooping into existance is hard to stomach."

"Oh yeah? Well your Bible talks about Dinosaurs a few thousand years ago when it's been proven they died out millions of years ago!"

Ok.....I never mentioned the Bible or dinosaurs. So why do you all? Not to mention, that has little to do with the formation of existance and God.

IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed

Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York

Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:41 pm

Founder wrote:

Quote:

And what exactly would be the point of some supreme being creating one-celled organisms, then two-celled organisms, and rather "suddenly" vertebrates?

Many believe that God created evolution and let it take it's toll. Not that he sat and experimented, which is why it happened the way you decribed.

Exactly. There's way too much evidence for people to not believe that evolution took place. More and more supporting evidence is found everyday. Why else would most religions support it's existance? (General statement, not directed you)

Last edited by IntrepidIsMe on Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

-------signature-------

"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."

-Wuthering Heights

La Forge
Bajoran Colonel

Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5

Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:23 pm

I am an aithiest. I was born into a Christian family. However...I don't believe in God. My family (especially my overly religious aunt) doesn't approve. Although, I do have the right to choose my own religion...

*sigh*

I am not one of those "God doesn't exist. I hate all religions and their followers!" kind of people. I am one of those people who can't believe something until they see it.

Another factor in my religion is my aunt. I lived with her for a short while. It was brutal. I wasn't allowed to read books that I liked (fantasy/sci-fi) because they were evil...according to my aunt, anyways. I couldn't watch what I wanted...because they were evil...according to my aunt. I couldn't play violent video games, anymore...I could barely play any video games...because my aunt thought that they were evil...I couldn't do anything that I liked to do. That is another reason I am not religious...my aunt...She turned me away from religion...she made me hate it...

I don't believe that all religious people are like that. One in a million.

So, I say, again...

I'll believe in God when I see him.

-------signature-------

You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...

Go Red Sox!

Founder
Dominion Leader

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant

Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:41 pm

La Forge wrote:

You proved my point. Thanks La Forge.

PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral

Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:21 am

Puck wrote:

I don't deny evolution, and it seems reasonable to me. However, I think we forget sometimes that it is only a theory, and a very incomplete one at that.

Just like creation is just a theory, and an incomplete one (more incomplete, full of flaws), at that, if that.

PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral

Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:34 am

Founder wrote:

Many believe that God created evolution and let it take it's toll. Not that he sat and experimented, which is why it happened the way you decribed.

This is the problem though, isn't it? Creation is a story and explanation, where evolution and science is a theory and study of the universe. If science one day proves the evolution theory, some creation believers will still say god created evolution and/or change their theories to suit.

Quote:

You don't want to believe in God simply because science can't prove he exists? Such a dependancy sounds as dangerous as ancient Catholics and their dependancy on the Pope. No offense.

How is that a dependancy? Needing to believe in god or religion is a dependancy. Going to catholic church every sunday and not being able to live without it is a dependancy. I'm independant of all of that and believe in my own scientific theories. Whats wrong with that? I don't even see how you can compare me any way shape or form to religion, little own catholic *shudder*.

Quote:

Oh? If that is the case, then there should be no debate here. No offense, but I don't think it has the answers. If you mean THEORIES, then maybe. But even then, the theories make little sense.

They would only make little sense to people who believe in creation over evolution. No scientific theories could change their minds.

lionhead
Rear Admiral

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)

Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:39 am

Founder wrote:

lionhead wrote:

No. Blindness is believing the universe popped up. Believing in something other than yourself in not blind, but strength.

Faith is something that you obviously do not understand.

Quote:

Founder
Dominion Leader

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:01 am

PrankishSmart wrote:

Founder wrote:

Many believe that God created evolution and let it take it's toll. Not that he sat and experimented, which is why it happened the way you decribed.

Quote:

You don't want to believe in God simply because science can't prove he exists? Such a dependancy sounds as dangerous as ancient Catholics and their dependancy on the Pope. No offense.

Quote:

Oh? If that is the case, then there should be no debate here. No offense, but I don't think it has the answers. If you mean THEORIES, then maybe. But even then, the theories make little sense.

They would only make little sense to people who believe in creation over evolution. No scientific theories could change their minds.

Ok...now you too prove my point.

What is the problem with athiests on this site? Are they not capable of having a philisophical debate without insult? I thought it was us "evil" Religious people that spew blind hatred and insults. So far, everyone religious has been fair and over half of the athiests have not.

Its now obvious that like lionhead, you hate Catholics. I bolded the part that proves it.

You and others are filled with so many animosity and hatred towards religion, that you can't even debate it without spouting off insults and moving off topic. I thought it was us Religious people that are held back by our slave religion. So now I learn what you all are held back by, hatred. Thats a shame, because this topic has the potential to be so thought provoking, but you all simply don't care. When I say that there is more to the universe than meets the eye all you can hear me say is "Worship the Pope!" Never once, have I used a religious text to back up my beliefs. Looks like I'm not the only one that is indoctrinated eh? Even though what you said was completely offensive, I won't repot you. As I said, I pity you. I don't know what it's like to live with such blind hatred that I can't even dicuss a simple topic. Scary....

I'll answer your questions, even though they are a failed attempt at deviating from the topic.

Quote:

Haha. Wow. Athiests complain that religious people do not change their beliefs to fit in with the times. They are too dogmatic. Now, when a religious person tries to do that, you all complain. Thats hypocritical first of all. Second of all, this topic is not about evolution. I've only said it like a billion times. Why can't you all read?

Quote:

Nothing is wrong with it, but you believe so blindly that all the scientific theories are right. That is the same thing with religion. Your god are scientists who perform modern day "miracles". Anything they say, you believe. You don't truly have independant thought, because you're obviously biased against religion. You believe not believing in anything makes you some independant person. It doesn't. Independent means you subscribe to no sides and don't deal in absolutes. You do deal in absolutes. Scientific ones.

Nice insult to my religion. Didn't science teach you tolerance? So much for religion being the source of intolerance. Seems like your side has it too.

Quote:

They would only make little sense to people who believe in creation over evolution. No scientific theories could change their minds.

Spewing more anti-religious hate? First of all, I'm talking about existance as a whole, not evolution. Evolution too needed a catalyst, just as everything else. The reason I said your theories are hold little basis is because we're trying to decide what created everything or how did everything simply form. All of your theories require a catalyst of a catalyst of a catalyst, but they say absolutely nothing about what was the first catalyst. That is why I said they make little sense, just like my belief in God. But you're too busy seeing me say "Well its not in the Bible, so it makes little sense." Again, you want me to put down my Bible to discuss that, perhaps you can in turn put down your intolerance towards my religion?

Quote:

I don't hate Athiests. I have friends who are athiests, but they are athiest AND tolerant. For example, Valathous on this very site. I consider him a friend. He seems like a good guy, but he couldn't be more different than me. Liberal, athiest, Canadian. I'm a conservative, Catholic, Cuban. We're opposites, but we're friends. Because he doesn't jude me and I don't judge him.

Again, you don't like discussing this with me and other religious people because you think we all hate you and your beleifs. I want to hear your beliefs. I want to understand where you come from, but I don't want to if you're going to talk about how much you hate Catholics.

Why do i think that? well, because many things in Relgion hold only meaning to people who have Faith, like Confession and Baptisment. As if people who don't have that don't belong, wince they wont get the ame treatment from God or Jesus.

I understand that. You obviously have either experiance or seen bad things done by religious people. What you need to understand is, not all of us are like that. Just like Valathous and others have taught me that not all Athiests are religious hating people. Understanding is the best weapon towards intolerance.

THis putsm e in a postion when i try too get rid of that feeling in me by helping Religious people undrstand that those things are not neccesary, i do that by explaining that even though i don't believe in god i'm still the same as you..... So if you believe that a god exists, he must have created me too and as in Faith he would give the same blessings to me as any other person.

I never debated that you are not the same as me. I see us as equals and as equals, I won't belittle your belief, just as you shouldn't mine.

But, then comes the tricky part, science. Now you might belive that people who belive in science are in a gorup, just as Religious people. But your wrong, Science is here, its not a theory, its not a Tale, its not a believe, its the physical evidence we have of how this world is created.
sure, science holds many theories like Evolution, but the simplicity of it is that whatever oyu belive out of those theories, you are never put into a seperate group. Science is not a Believe, its right in front of you. All you need to do is live as you want to live, but don't deny Science.

I understand that. But as HH once said, why can't God by the why and science be the how? Science is the physical, and God is the spiritual. As for lumping the people who believe in science together, maybe there are difference. None that I've seen though. You all resort to the old "evolution" stuff. We're not discussing that, but something else.

I'm trying to explain this to every religious person, no matter what he believes, if he believes in a higher power or something that doesn't consist with the Facts of the universe. Even though in the course of history people have tried to compensate God's existance in modern Science, by saying stuff like "god created evolution", or "god is an unkown energy that started the Universe" or whatever doesn't matter, because that believe will always get the same question: "what created him/her/it?", though science doesn't come up with something like that, its just lets you know that nobody has come up with the answer and you may try to guess it yourself(although some do come up with a most plausible idea becasue they need some answer like religious people, like the big bang theory and most people stick with that, but its not possible to know and i think its really stupid to do that.).

Well again, let us say we don't believe in God. Then how did the universe appear? That same question you argued against God, can be argued against science as well.

Am i making sense?

Much more then before. Yes.

On a side note to everyone, I've said this before but people keep conviently ignoring me. This topic has the potential to be very deep and thought provoking. We're trying to understand the paradox of existance's beginning and if it proves God is real or not.

Lionhead and PrankishSmart seem bent on dissproving God with evolution. Again, I'm talking about all of existance and you two are talking about fossils. That is a different topic. Go make one and discuss it there. But if you're going to post here, it would be nice to discuss the topic at hand. The existance of God. I stipulated that the universe just popping out of no where is hard to believe and your rebuttel is "But there are fossils on Earth that prove the Bible wrong". Well....that answers my question whole heartedly.

I bet all of us have really interesting personal beliefs on the universe. Good questions to ask. Insightful answers to give. We could use this topic to divulge a better understanding of beliefs(religious AND scientific). This topic can be amazing. Instead? Its a "Lets bash Catholics and the Bible! Even though this topic has little to do with that..." topic.

Are there any Athiests on this site that want to discuss this in a non-insulting, thought provoking, learning from each other way? Before anybody says "But the religious people on this topic used the Bible as their proof!" I'm not them. I never did once. So don't lump me in with them and take out your anti-religious frustration out on me.

I don't mean to be angry or insulting to anyone, I'm just so dissapointed that a topic as good as this is being wasted on anti-religious rhetoric. As clique as this sounds, the only way we'll get along is to understand each other. Learn from each other. Its rare to get a topic that isn't about Janeways's hair or the cutest guy on VOY. Why are we wasting this with attacking each other?

Surely we can get back on topic and try to have a REALLY good discussion or would that be too much to ask?

(I bet a million bricks of gold presses latinum, no one will read this post.

Oh well. There is always "Which season did Janeway have the best hairstyle" topics...*sigh*)[/quote]

PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral

Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:04 am

Quote:

You don't want to believe in God simply because science can't prove he exists? Such a dependancy sounds as dangerous as ancient Catholics and their dependancy on the Pope. No offense.

Quote:

Like I have already said, I am no athiest, or any religion. But your wrong again by confusing CHANGING a theory and EVOLVING or REFINING a theory.

Quote:

My god are not scientists. Scientists are not the supernatural. What I believe in is a beginning that is scientific not religious or spiritual. Scientific theories are all different, where creation is based upon one setting: A God that creates the universe.

Quote:

They would only make little sense to people who believe in creation over evolution. No scientific theories could change their minds.

I'm not spewing anti-religious hate? I must admit that I don't like catholic, but if your that concerned with other peoples opinions, well, thats not good. I could care less if you said you believe everyone needs to belong in a religion, or something. My own beliefs are strong enough and I never am in doubt for favour of creation theory.

Yes everything needs a catalyst, and we can't explain the beginnings through either creation or evolution. At least I have tryied to explain mine though. I would be intrested in hearing your theory.

PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral

Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:09 am

Quote:

I understand that. But as HH once said, why can't God by the why and science be the how? Science is the physical, and God is the spiritual. As for lumping the people who believe in science together, maybe there are difference. None that I've seen though. You all resort to the old "evolution" stuff. We're not discussing that, but something else.

If were not discussing evolution then why is it when the question of
'who created god?' is asked, the ONLY reply seems to be 'who created the big bang?'

So then, who created god?

Nite all

Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel

Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:51 pm

well I shouldn't brought this up anyway. Dummy me caused a fight. well sincerely apologize. got to go. cya later. it is not about proven or disapproving just a conversation rather or not to believe .. i try to do better next. yeah i will remember quotes and links next time. I edit this now. I hope u did forgive. No, I am not trying to get out of a warning. I deserve it totally.

Last edited by Leo Wyatt on Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:52 am; edited 1 time in total

Founder
Dominion Leader

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:54 pm

PrankishSmart wrote:

Wow that was totally unexpected. I'm truly sorry if I caused offense on that part please accept my apologies. Sometimes I forget some people don't have as thick of skin and sensitive to their beliefs. I never meant to upset anyone but I was responding to your comment about dependancy which in my strong opinion was wrong and stated that you can't compare me to religious dependancy. My life experiences are obviously different to yours seeing your experience with catholic has obviously been positive. I'm also not aethist which I have already stated. It's not only aethist people that don't believe in god.

Thick skin? Sensitive to their beliefs? No....

Maybe its because I'm tired of people ridiculing what I believe in. Maybe because its been happening my entire life. Maybe I'd like to have a discussion that doesn't require me to defend my beliefs or to be attacked. I'm sure you would hate it if I ranted on and on about how you're going to burn in hell for your beliefs (Which I don't believe in, in the first place) wouldn't you?

You're not athiest? Maybe not. Although I was under the impression that if you dind't beleive in God, then you're Athiests. That does't really make sense, but ok. Thats if you're athiest or not. Either way doesn't bother me. The anti-Catholic does bother me though. You're free to believe you want. You want to hate Catholism, do it. But it shouldn't be part of your argument on the site...

Like I have already said, I am no athiest, or any religion. But your wrong again by confusing CHANGING a theory and EVOLVING or REFINING a theory.

Oh? How so...?

My god are not scientists. Scientists are not the supernatural. What I believe in is a beginning that is scientific not religious or spiritual. Scientific theories are all different, where creation is based upon one setting: A God that creates the universe.

So because creation doesn't have multiple theories, you don't believe? Also, creation has variation. Its not all the Bible story. Science has different ways, but all of them are as flawed as my God one.

I'm not spewing anti-religious hate? I must admit that I don't like catholic, but if your that concerned with other peoples opinions, well, thats not good. I could care less if you said you believe everyone needs to belong in a religion, or something. My own beliefs are strong enough and I never am in doubt for favour of creation theory.

I'm not in "doubt" of anything. You're twisting my words. I'm not concerned about other people's opinions unless they spew them. For example, I don't care about white supremecist and their views on my race and religion. But if they say something to me personally, like you did, yes, I will say something.

Yes everything needs a catalyst, and we can't explain the beginnings through either creation or evolution. At least I have tryied to explain mine though. I would be intrested in hearing your theory.

Well its hard to explain my thoughts cause people have not been overly friendly.

Thats exactly it. Does everything need a catalyst? Isn't that thinking in too much of a linear, Human way?

That is why all of this is so hard to wrap my mind around. Even in the case of God. Because what came before God and the creation of the universe? Is that even comprehensible?

I'm interesting in hearing your theory as well. No, not to tear it up. Just to learn.

Quote:

If were not discussing evolution then why is it when the question of
'who created god?' is asked, the ONLY reply seems to be 'who created the big bang?'

So then, who created god?

Funny....

Because that is the rebuttel the athiests and "non-athiests"(you) have given in response when I say "what created the big bang?" It isn't just us religious people that do it. I'm glad you at least understand that this is a cycle that is going no where. The problem is that you think this is a debating arena, rather than a discussion area. It could be used for debate, but then it just turns into us defending what we believe, rather than discuss what we believe. See, you take it as a personal attack on your beliefs when I ask "What created the big bang". I'm not attacking you or questioning your beliefs. I'm trying to discuss what we believe. I want to hear cool theories. Even if they are outlandish.

Last edited by Founder on Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

lionhead
Rear Admiral

Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)

Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:54 pm

Founder wrote:

Quote:

Alright, i might have been a bit off. But you asked for "adding more instead of just saying � don't think you all are wise"" so i tried to expalin.

Of course, you again are right, it wasn't completely fair towards you, i just pointed towards Creationists again.

Thats the problem. You believe my theory is the Bible one. It isn't.

i just told you i don't

2. Even though a lot of religious people(including yourself) have their own views on each diferentm atter(the universe, evolution, God, Jesus) yuo are all still have a little bit of that denial left in you. even though you debate your own believes, yo still can't see past it.

So let me get this straight. Religious people have denial if they have even the tiniest bit of faith in God. While Athiests are the...uh what? Freedom fighters against religion? The ones that have rational though. Give me a break. You all have denial, just as much as we do.

What are you talking about? you totally mistook my response. I just told you a few lines above that Athiest are just as in denial as you guys, plus that science is also a brick wall etc. So why do you bring in the ridiculous statement of "Freedom fighter against religion"? isn't that Stereotypical?

Why do i think that? well, because many things in Relgion hold only meaning to people who have Faith, like Confession and Baptisment. As if people who don't have that don't belong, wince they wont get the ame treatment from God or Jesus.

I understand that. You obviously have either experiance or seen bad things done by religious people. What you need to understand is, not all of us are like that. Just like Valathous and others have taught me that not all Athiests are religious hating people. Understanding is the best weapon towards intolerance.

Histroy shows many bad things have been done in Religion, it kinda connects with eachother in my eyes. Asi said, i see Relgious people in groups, when you Catholic you are in the Catholic group, that means you are in the group that started the Crusades, inquisitions and what not. Taht kinda makes me sceptical about your own beliefs, as i am afraid you are like my Aunt, who is a Yehova's witness and belives everybody who isn't a Yehovah's witness is evil and need to be converted. She is totaly ignorant and racist. but you have taugth me a persons believes have nothing to do with other people's actions. But i have to admit i'm not totally past that, and i still have some sense of fear towards these specific "Groups"

But, then comes the tricky part, science. Now you might belive that people who belive in science are in a gorup, just as Religious people. But your wrong, Science is here, its not a theory, its not a Tale, its not a believe, its the physical evidence we have of how this world is created.
sure, science holds many theories like Evolution, but the simplicity of it is that whatever oyu belive out of those theories, you are never put into a seperate group. Science is not a Believe, its right in front of you. All you need to do is live as you want to live, but don't deny Science.

I understand that. But as HH once said, why can't God by the why and science be the how? Science is the physical, and God is the spiritual. As for lumping the people who believe in science together, maybe there are difference. None that I've seen though. You all resort to the old "evolution" stuff. We're not discussing that, but something else.

Yes, well. i can assure you no Athiest is the same, as in Liberal people. Sure you still have groups of real Athiest that all believe the same, but very little. But, with religious people you do have that even though nobody belive exactly the same thing they do Celebrate the same holidays as all others(like christms and the Sabbath), follow traditions together(going to church evry sunday, praying too Moses towards the east at a certain point of the day), which makes you believe they all think alike. See the difference between Athiests and Religious people i was referring to?

I'm trying to explain this to every religious person, no matter what he believes, if he believes in a higher power or something that doesn't consist with the Facts of the universe. Even though in the course of history people have tried to compensate God's existance in modern Science, by saying stuff like "god created evolution", or "god is an unkown energy that started the Universe" or whatever doesn't matter, because that believe will always get the same question: "what created him/her/it?", though science doesn't come up with something like that, its just lets you know that nobody has come up with the answer and you may try to guess it yourself(although some do come up with a most plausible idea becasue they need some answer like religious people, like the big bang theory and most people stick with that, but its not possible to know and i think its really stupid to do that.).

Well again, let us say we don't believe in God. Then how did the universe appear? That same question you argued against God, can be argued against science as well.

Nope, not the same.to that question i can simply say: "I don't know" and i don't. But not knowing is alright with me, i don't need to know and i couldn't possibly become to know it either, so i gave it a rest a long time ago. You however, you believe in god, believing in god means believing in something existing, but that something has no proof of existance at all. But as you think god exists you must have some clue on what he\she\it is or how he\she\it came to be or else you believe in nothing, like me but you seem to know better then me since you gave it a name or something.

Am i making sense?

.

Lionhead and PrankishSmart seem bent on dissproving God with evolution. Again, I'm talking about all of existance and you two are talking about fossils. That is a different topic. Go make one and discuss it there. But if you're going to post here, it would be nice to discuss the topic at hand. The existance of God. I stipulated that the universe just popping out of no where is hard to believe and your rebuttel is "But there are fossils on Earth that prove the Bible wrong". Well....that answers my question whole heartedly.

I bet all of us have really interesting personal beliefs on the universe. Good questions to ask. Insightful answers to give. We could use this topic to divulge a better understanding of beliefs(religious AND scientific). This topic can be amazing. Instead? Its a "Lets bash Catholics and the Bible! Even though this topic has little to do with that..." topic.

well discussing if god exists also inlcudes giving reason why you do believe he exists i think.

Man, i hope i don't make to many typo's. I'm sweating already.

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Founder
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Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:24 pm

lionhead wrote:

i just told you i don't

Then, my apologies. I misread. I'm glad you understand that isn't where I'm coming from.

What are you talking about? you totally mistook my response. I just told you a few lines above that Athiest are just as in denial as you guys, plus that science is also a brick wall etc. So why do you bring in the ridiculous statement of "Freedom fighter against religion"? isn't that Stereotypical?

Well I didn't really mean it in offense. I'm simply saying, or rather in this case, that we are all in denial equally. I've seen religious people be VERY in denial and not care what anyone says. I've seen athiests be in denial as well, just as stubborn. I'd call that a Human thing.

Histroy shows many bad things have been done in Religion, it kinda connects with eachother in my eyes. Asi said, i see Relgious people in groups, when you Catholic you are in the Catholic group, that means you are in the group that started the Crusades, inquisitions and what not. Taht kinda makes me sceptical about your own beliefs, as i am afraid you are like my Aunt, who is a Yehova's witness and belives everybody who isn't a Yehovah's witness is evil and need to be converted. She is totaly ignorant and racist. but you have taugth me a persons believes have nothing to do with other people's actions. But i have to admit i'm not totally past that, and i still have some sense of fear towards these specific "Groups"

Ah, like La Forge, you have an overzealous aunt. What you have to understand though is that not all of us are like that. I'll give you an example.

Many people believe that Mexicans are all border jumpers, because a large amount of Mexicans in America are in fact illegal. That maybe the case, but that doesn't mean we should discriminate against them for simply being Mexican. Not all are illegals.

Another good example comes from the show, Sleeper Cell. A Muslim is speaking in front of a class of first graders. One of the students ask "Why do all Muslims hate us(Americans)?" The Muslim says he doesn't hate any Americans and is friends with Americans. Another child asks "Why did they fly the planes into the buildings? Why do they want to hurt us?" The Muslim responds with "Has anyone here had a cousin that has done something bad?" One child says "Yes. One time, my cousin stole cookies and blamed it on me." The Muslim says "Yeah, I feel ya. Now...because some people in our family do bad things, does that make the entire family bad?" The class gives collective "No" as their response. As clique as all of that is, the point still stands. Because SOME Muslims have hijacked the religion, does that mean all of them are? No.

So in essence, you really need to stop hating religious people simply because they are religious. Not all of us are crusaders or jihadists. We're people who simply believe in something more than ourselves.

As for the whole "Religion has cause more death in Humanity than any war" argument. There is a BIG flaw in that argument. You're trying to blame an intangible idea that is controlled by Humans. Humans are flawed people. Some are corrupt and evil. It is ridiculous to blame religion on wars, because while it was used to launch them, it was never God or any non-corporeal being that led the battle. It was always Humans vs. Humans. Not all wars were sparked by religion, how do you account for those? Many Athiests (not neccesarily you) believe that world would suddenly be peaceful if religion was wiped out. It woulnd't. Trust me. Thats like blaming the gun and not the person who pulled the trigger. What are you going to do? Ban guns? Then the person would use a knife. What are you going to do? Ban knives? Then a person would use a rock or stick. What are you going to do? Ban nature? Then a person would simply use their fists. What are you going to do? Ban...hands? My point is that evil is inherent in people. Christians and Muslims call it the demons of our nature. Buddhists believe it is negative energy or karma. Aitheists simply say that Humans can be bad people. The fact is, wiping out something that gives people spiritual clarity will not solve problems.

BTW? That speech wasn't wholly directed at you. I'm not saying that you want to wipe out religion. I'm simply countering the whole "religion causes wars" argument.

Yes, well. i can assure you no Athiest is the same, as in Liberal people. Sure you still have groups of real Athiest that all believe the same, but very little. But, with religious people you do have that even though nobody belive exactly the same thing they do Celebrate the same holidays as all others(like christms and the Sabbath), follow traditions together(going to church evry sunday, praying too Moses towards the east at a certain point of the day), which makes you believe they all think alike. See the difference between Athiests and Religious people i was referring to?

First of all, they pray to Mecca, not Moses.

Second of all, I see what you're saying. Athiests are not a unified group like the religious people in traditions. I understand that, but your beliefs are VERY similiar.

Nope, not the same.to that question i can simply say: "I don't know" and i don't. But not knowing is alright with me, i don't need to know and i couldn't possibly become to know it either, so i gave it a rest a long time ago. You however, you believe in god, believing in god means believing in something existing, but that something has no proof of existance at all. But as you think god exists you must have some clue on what he\she\it is or how he\she\it came to be or else you believe in nothing, like me but you seem to know better then me since you gave it a name or something.

First of all, you say you don't know the answer to the question. Well, none of us do. That is my point. I was hoping for all of us to discuss what we think about the creation of the universe. If you "gave it a rest", I don't see why you're posting in this topic. We're trying to understand how the universe and existance as a whole came to be and try to wrap our minds around the unique paradox. We're not here to prove each other wrong.

Yes, I have "clues" on who God is but I don't know everything about God. It is fine that you all don't beleive in God. I honestly don't care. I'm simply saying that I can't understand how you all believe the universe just....popped up. I wanted to hear why you all believe that. But this turned into a debate on my religion and it shouldn't have.

well discussing if god exists also inlcudes giving reason why you do believe he exists i think.

Man, i hope i don't make to many typo's. I'm sweating already.

That is what my FIRST post said.

I said, my "reason" to believe he exists is because the idea of the universe just...appearing...the idea of existance, every nuance of it, just...there is hard to believe. THAT is my point and thus, we're back at the beginning.

WeAz
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Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:21 am

Why do we have this debate? It'll never be solved, and we'll never convince anyone else.

PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral

Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.

Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:54 am

Founder wrote:

I'm sure you would hate it if I ranted on and on about how you're going to burn in hell for your beliefs (Which I don't believe in, in the first place) wouldn't you?

No, no it wouldn't worry me in the least. Christians have told me (actually with a serious face which made it even more amusing to me), that i'm going to hell and going to burn there. I laughed it off and said at least all my family will be together

Quote:

Like I have already said, I am no athiest, or any religion. But your wrong again by confusing CHANGING a theory and EVOLVING or REFINING a theory.

Oh? How so...?

Because by changing a theory from god created the universe to god created the big bang is more of a change, than a refinement of a theory. Well, a major refinement. And I also guess my original point of that was would all christians then change their beliefs if science one day proves that the big bang did create the universe?

My god are not scientists. Scientists are not the supernatural. What I believe in is a beginning that is scientific not religious or spiritual. Scientific theories are all different, where creation is based upon one setting: A God that creates the universe.

Quote:

So because creation doesn't have multiple theories, you don't believe? Also, creation has variation. Its not all the Bible story. Science has different ways, but all of them are as flawed as my God one.

My main reason for not believing in creation is I don't majorly believe in the supernatural, little own it having a part in the creation of the universe. My other reasons also include the fact that creation theories are rather static, and don't provide enough believable insight into the universe itself.

Yes everything needs a catalyst, and we can't explain the beginnings through either creation or evolution. At least I have tryied to explain mine though. I would be intrested in hearing your theory.[/quote]

Quote:

My original theory is that black holes have the power to multiply matter and pull it back to the beginning of time. We can't study INSIDE a black hole to find out what happens, so for all we know this would be entirely possible. Part of my theory is that eventually ALL universe matter gets sucked into black holes and brings this matter to a starting point. Think of this starting point of time as the earliest possible point in time where nothing can be earlier, just like there is no such colder temperature than 0K. I supose there could be no end of time though, just like there is no max limit of temperature.

Whats your theory on creation?

Quote:

The problem is that you think this is a debating arena, rather than a discussion area.

Debates are what sparks ideas. If it turns into an argument, than there is a problem and would violate this forums rules, etc.

lionhead
Rear Admiral

Joined: 26 May 2004
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Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:54 am

Founder wrote:

That is what my FIRST post said.

I agree we should focus on this now. However i do have to compliment you on an excellent debate Founder.

Well, the name of the topic was "God's existance". So i presumed you mean the reason why people believe he exists and why some people don't. but i'm gonna reread the first post again.

I'm just saying, not knowing how the universe was created doesn't mean a God did it, as if that is more logical to believe then "Just popping up".

But i'm not fully awake yet now, so i'll post a real reaction later.

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Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:54 am

PrankishSmart wrote:

I'm sorry to hear that. They don't sound like REAL Christians to me, just mean spirited pricks.

PrankishSmart wrote:

In other words, you think its not really changing with the times, but simply rewriting an entire belief?

Well it isn't possible for the Big Bang to create the universe. Because again...how did the two large objects that rammed into each other get there in the first place? I mean, it is possible that the theory is real, but...that question has go to irk some.

PrankishSmart wrote:

Ah ok. The supernatural thing is what bothers you? I can understand that.

As for they don't provide enough insight...you'd be surprised.

I think it simply provides insight in a much different way.

PrankishSmart wrote:

Most interesting, but again, we're faced with that damn question. How did the black hole get their in the first place? How does it have the capability to affect time. How is TIME there? ARGH. All these questions.

Your theory is interesting, because its almost like a temporal paradox. Almost like time doesn't affect the black holes. Or am I reading that improperly?

PrankishSmart wrote:

Whats your theory on creation?

Mine is WAY out there and unsusual.

Its more of a wistful theory, than an actual hardcore belief.

Many religions adhere to the belief that when you die, you simply go somewhere and that is the end of the road. For example, Catholics believe you'll either go to Heaven or Hell. They also believe in Purgatory, but that leads to one or the other. What happens when you get to one or the other? Thats the end of the line. You're there for eternity. I don't believe that personally. Personally, I believe that there are MANY planes of existance. Not alternate realities, I mean like higher and lower planes of existance. I do believe a plane that is like Heaven and Hell exists, but they aren't the end. Christians, Muslims, Jews all believe there is a struggle in the universe between good and evil. Buddhists and Hindus believe in positive and negative energy/karma. Almost as if there is a universal struggle between good and evil. I think that God is part of that fight and leads it. Now you might say "but if God made all of existance...then why did he create evil...?" I think God is from another plane of existance, a higher one. He created our reality with the same struggle the other planes face. That could be perhaps the meaning of life. Which is why life is filled with so much stuggle. Why bad things happen. We have to learn to overcome them. Become enlightened and prepared for the next life. If you are NOT prepared, then you will be reincarnated in this world until you are. I personally beleive that every religion is right and wrong. Like I said earlier, we ALL got pieces of a much larger puzzle. That the universe is not as simplistic as athiests make it out to be. It appeared, thats it. The end. I don't believe that. There is too much to prove otherwise. Every thing is so complicated, even the TINIEST of things. We simply overlook it, because we've grown to understand how it works through science. Once we understand it, we dont give it a second though. The thing is there is still so much to learn. I even believe that athiests have a piece of the puzzle. Their piece is the understanding of science and their warning of how corrupt organized religion can be. Because sometimes organized religion can make us stray from the real message. You might say "Um...what about the rules that make Religions conflict?" I think the rules that conflict are man made. In the Bible, Jesus CLEARLY says to respect everyone else's beliefs. Not hate them. He even said that he would not welcome anyone into God's kingdom if they committed crimes in his name.

Yes, I will cite the Bible, but I'm NOT using it to argue my position against yours. I'm simply trying to show that Jesus would never condone the things done in his name.

Quote:

�Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.�

The other religions also have peaceful messages as well, but they are distorted in the hands of evil corrupt HUMANS. They've taken control of institutions that were made to pray, nothing more.

Now at this point, you're probably saying "What a bunch of comic book crap. I asked you about creation...you didn't answer me..." I just wanted to give you a better understanding of where I stand. Now, like I said earlier, many beleive that God and Heaven are the end and Satan and Hell are another end. I don't believe that either. I think it's even possible for God to have a creator. As controversial as that sounds, that doesn't make him any less our God. If he created this place of existance. You might say "Ok Andy...same question. What made our creator's creator?" To be honest, I don't know. That paradox exists within my belief as well. It could do with something like the rules of this universe do not apply in the other planes of reality. I don't know.... I'm sorry. I know that was very..."supernatural" and not really fulfilling, but I admit it, I don't have the answer. I also think that in this...shell, this body, we can not comprehend the answer. We have to literally leave it to understand. If you truly think about it, science and religion(in this world) can never answer this question. Which makes me believe all the more.

PrankishSmart wrote:

Debates are what sparks ideas. If it turns into an argument, than there is a problem and would violate this forums rules, etc.

Indeed. I would also like to clarifiy, that what I said is a personal belief. It is not meant to be forced on anyone at all. I'm sure it maybe full of holes, but that is why I never once said it is fact. It is pretty much based off the accumulative knowledge of various religions and trying to blend them mostly.

lionhead wrote:

I agree we should focus on this now. However i do have to compliment you on an excellent debate Founder.

Same to you. I think we understand each other a little more.

lionhead wrote:

Well, the name of the topic was "God's existance". So i presumed you mean the reason why people believe he exists and why some people don't. but i'm gonna reread the first post again.

Yeah I understand the confusion. I meant that the paradox of the universe's formation could be used to believe in God.

lionhead wrote:

I'm just saying, not knowing how the universe was created doesn't mean a God did it, as if that is more logical to believe then "Just popping up".

I understand that. I don't think my theory is any better than anyone elses. That is my point. The paradox exists for EVERY theory. Which is what is so freaky about it.

Kasey
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Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 287
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Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:28 am

What does it matter anyway? We all believe different ways and why did deb bring topic up? Well anyway, I believe in God and I consider myself as a christian. I would never tell a non-believe that he/she is going to burn in hell. That is not how a christian should act. Whoever told you prankishsmart that you were going to burn in hell, is not a christian themselves. Cause christians that I have seen and meet don't tell people that they are going to burn in hell.

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Leo Wyatt
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Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:58 am

Kasey Wrote

Quote:

Why did Deb bring this up?

I was stupid and wasn't thinking at the time. I already feel bad enough about bringing this topic up again. If you read I did apologized well twice cause i edit my post to apologize again.

Hey longs as I learn not to do the mistake again.

I came to a resolution to my mistake. Never try to debate with out quotes and links. duh!

I guess we got our beliefs. Guess no one is going to prove anything here. Just have to wait to see what happens. I explain what I just said later. I got to go cook breakfast for my kids. cya. maybe

PrankishSmart
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Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.

Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:29 am

Founder wrote:

Well it isn't possible for the Big Bang to create the universe. Because again...how did the two large objects that rammed into each other get there in the first place? I mean, it is possible that the theory is real, but...that question has go to irk some.[/b]

Well my idea of black holes could account for that and together with random chaos. If something is being interacted by something else from the so called future it could account for the behaviour. Another idea is that the universe constantly collapes and expands, but that would majorly change our understanding of the universe. All we can do is speculate. Telescopes are wonderous tools, though.
into the universe itself.[/quote]

Quote:

Ah ok. The supernatural thing is what bothers you? I can understand that.

As for they don't provide enough insight...you'd be surprised.

I think it simply provides insight in a much different way.

Yes thats correct. Also I have yet to be surprised but would check out resources. The thing is though my level of understanding can't be put down to faith and absoulutes. I prefer to theorise and speculate from the limited (or vast depends what way you look at it) data we have of the universe. What data does religion base it's beliefs off? Thats why i'm not a believer of god. I hope i'm making sense here.

Quote:

Your theory is interesting, because its almost like a temporal paradox. Almost like time doesn't affect the black holes. Or am I reading that improperly?

Random chaos and interaction between matter and time could explain all that. It's a bit hard to study the inside of black holes though, but all we know is matter gets sucked in. Where does it go? Is it possible that all matter will eventually get sucked into black holes and return to a earlier point in time?

Quote:

Mine is WAY out there and unsusual.

Quote:

Okay that seems reasonable I supose and not really anymore 'far fetched' than the big bang. At least you come up with your own ideas and not just taking for granted what your religion teaches you.

But if god is really this powerful a being, then whats the purpose of the universe? I can never think of a purpose. If he is that powerful, the outcome of his own actions he could see into, so I would rule out experiement. Anything he does he is going to know the outcome of. Yet when you think about it in a time sense the universe will not last forever so what he has done is temporary. If he wanted to create a civilization, then why have a inevitable end? And whats the ultimate purpose of creating one. Why does the universe look naturally created and totally random, with no evidence of organised creation.

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