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luit14
Commodore
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 2232
Location: Come on in HEEERE! :P
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 Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:13 am |
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^Right, the thing mentioned in Job could be a dinosaur. But as I said, it really doesn't matter, because that isn't the point of the Bible. 
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:18 am |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | If you take the bible literally, its only a few thousand years old. After all, 2000 years ago Jesus lived, and then if you factor in the generations mentioned with the average lifespan from back then, its only a few more thousand years, back to Adam and Eve. |
If you take the bible literally, you can't much tell. Adam and Eve were created after the seven days of creation as a stock set aside for the line where Jesus would come from. It doesn't say when Adam and Eve came about, but it had to be after a while, because when Cain was cast out, there were cities filled with people ready to spite him.
I happen to believe that the earth is billions of years old. I have a hard time disputing that, given the weight of evidence in biology and archeology.
And, luit, no, I don't think this is the point of the bible, either. If you want to argue facts, though, they certainly help.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:18 pm |
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| luit14 wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | Yeah, carbon dating and the like has been wrong before, but not in recent years. Many scientists have come to the same conclusion that earth is billions of years old.
Yeah, I've heard about that Noah's ark thing. Talk about inconclusive. |
Ok, but the Bible doesn't say the earth isn't billions of years old. As far as I can see it doesn't say how long it took for him to make the earth.
Genesis 1:2 (from NIV) Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
It doesn't say how long that took, and it doesn't say how long it took God to create the earth either. So I don't think that arguement gets you anywhere. Not that it really matters, as I said, the point is that God made earth, not how long it took him to do it.
Although you might be overstating how inconclusive it was or wasn't, I won't argue that it proves anything. But it hasn't been proved it isn't the ark either. It is evidence though, that they think it is the ark. Archaeologists at least have some evidence that it's the ark to say they think its the ark. |
I've quoted the first few verses of Genesis, and the whole "hovering over the waters" thing seems to be taking place all in day one. Then day two, and so on.
Hmmm, they found a few pieces of wood on a mountain that date back to about the same time that Noah was supposed to have lived. I suppose carbon dating works in that instance. Thats just wonderfully convenient, isn't it? I'm not disputing it. However, people have come forward with just as much evidence that they've been abducted by aliens. (meaning very little)
| Exalya wrote: | | A day is, I believe, the word etos in Hebrew (Been a while, but if memory serves) which means, simply, a given period of time. Any period of time. Could be between night and day, or something else entirely. While we're on that subject, y'know the whole 40 days and 40 nights thing? That's a loose translation in Hebrew for "A long time." If something took place in "40 days and 40 nights" in the bible, it could've been more or less than that. |
Indeed. This started over the literal interpretist's point of view. I have argument with such loose translations.
Last edited by IntrepidIsMe on Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:25 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: |
| Exalya wrote: | | A day is, I believe, the word etos in Hebrew (Been a while, but if memory serves) which means, simply, a given period of time. Any period of time. Could be between night and day, or something else entirely. While we're on that subject, y'know the whole 40 days and 40 nights thing? That's a loose translation in Hebrew for "A long time." If something took place in "40 days and 40 nights" in the bible, it could've been more or less than that. |
Indeed. This started over the literal interpretist's point of view. I have argument with such loose translations. |
Really, you can make a lot of statements in the bible that may or may not really be there, depending on the facts at hand and what you want to say. In all honesty, I was getting tired of watching this particular circular argument and wanted to throw in something to see if anyone would run with it, one direction or another. If you sincerely want to believe the bible, you can do so in any number of ways (Obviously, based on the sheer number of denominations, and sects within the denominations)
Trying to quantify a belief in God with a book really gets on my nerves. It's different for everyone, unless you have some compulsion to listen to what someone else believed a very long time ago. It all gets rather messy and sickens views on "religious" people, when it doesn't have to be that way at all. Choices, choices, choices...
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Mon Sep 05, 2005 9:30 pm |
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I meant "no argument" sorry. People who are willing to interpret the bible as it truly is, a book thats simply a guideline for living, don't bother me. However, there are poeple out there who pretend to ignore documented evidence about life and the universe in general and say things like "Well, in the bible it says.... so that argument is invalid." But, when scientific evidence supports what they're saying, they hail it as doing "god's" work. Its that kind of hypocrisy that drives people away from organised religion based on such literal translations.
Its highly annoying.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:24 am |
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Sorry to bring this back up.
http://www.iiw.org/terms.html#terms
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I know there are people that still don't believe in God and I respect that. I don't if I should bring this topic back up again, but I was never good at debating.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:37 am |
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This has already gone round in circles. Your also quoting parts of the bible there which doesn't exactly show you to be debating the argument with a neutral eye.
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
I know I can't disprove gods existance, and I don't. But the more important factor is you also can't PROVE his existance, either. Just that fact alone gives me every reason not to believe in the being's existance.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:51 am |
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Whatever... I know this is going in circles. I think I am aloud to post my side too as you all.    Cause I was horrible posting my views last time.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:14 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | This has already gone round in circles. Your also quoting parts of the bible there which doesn't exactly show you to be debating the argument with a neutral eye.
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
I know I can't disprove gods existance, and I don't. But the more important factor is you also can't PROVE his existance, either. Just that fact alone gives me every reason not to believe in the being's existance. |
And the fact that you can't prove he exists gives me every reason to believe he exists.
First of all, lets be honest here. Scientist are angry and say that God doesn't exist because they can't prove it. First of all, that is complete and utter arrogance. Second of all, you're trying to argue that your tools, equipment, etc can not find a being that is more powerful than a trillion atomic bombs. If science managed to "expose" God somehow, then surely, he either allowed it or he isn't God. Just because they can't prove he exists, does not mean he doesn't. It just means you've all become so full of yourselves, that now you can't be proven wrong.
Did you all stop to think he doesn't show himself, because then Humanity would NEVER believe in him? People ask, "Why doesn't he show himself? Then we would all believe?" No, you wouldn't. You would know he exists.
"All he wants is for you to believe in him..."
"I do believe in him!"
"No, you know about him, but you don't believe."
-Constantine
Knowing and believing are two different things. Just like wisdom and Knowledge is different. Believing is absolute faith and trust. Knowing is just...acknowledging and moving on, not really caring.
No amount of science can ever "expose" God. If it did, then chances are, it's not God.
| Quote: | | The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god? |
Thats the crux of it isn't it? A lot of people tell me that I believe in Catholism cause I've been indoctrinated, brain washed, manipulated, tricked, etc. I believe in a God, not necessarily only the Catholic God, because athiests are asking me to stomach the idea the universe just...appeared. Yes, I find that harder to believe than a man turning wine into water(Christianity), God having an Elephant's head(Hinduism), God created man out of clay/dirt(Islam), and whatever other "myth" there is. How can the universe just....pop up? Doesn't that violate the laws of science? Something coming from nothing? I'm not too versed in science, so I could be wrong on that last statement. The universe is far too complicated, as science has taught us, to just...appear. No amount of science can ever explain that. I'm not even talking about the physical realm of the universe, but the very idea of it. How was the idea of a universe even fathomed? How can something like that appear? Of course, many would argue that it didn't appear as complicated as it is. It evolved and grew. This is possible, but again, the beginnings of it just appeared. Meaning some kind of spark of life appeared and not only that, but it had the potential to grow into a vast universe. How can that...just happen? Are athiests asking me to stomach this while simultaneously saying I have neurological disorder for believing a guy walked on water? Maybe we BOTH should check in the pysch ward eh?
I always ask athiest, what created this? They tell me. Then I go back further. They answer again. I go back even further and it gets to a point where they say "I don't know" and trust me, it's RARE to get them to admit that. None of us truly know. I mean, try to wrap your mind around this. Before the universe there was...what? You can't say nothing, because as ironic as this is, nothing is something. There had to have been complete...void. But even then, a void is something. So its hard to comprehend what was there before the universe was..."formed".
As for, "what created God?" That too is difficult to comprehend(same thing for no God, and just the universe appearing). Then again, you're asking a very Human and scientific question and trying to apply it to a spiritual, powerful being. That type of connection can rarely be made. He is not subject to our laws of science, because he was around BEFORE them. To be honest, I can't answer this question. No one can. Just like the universe argument, it's so hard to wrap your mind around it. I simply can't. But that is not an admission that God does not exist. Again, see my rant about how the universe can not simply...pop up.
I don't have that answers, no one does. I'm not pushing my religion on anyone. I believe that humanity was endowed with pieces of the spiritual puzzle. Each religion, even Aithiest, got a piece of it. Until we unite and apply them together in peace, we will never understand what lies beyond us without dying, of course. I also believe that no religion has the full picture, as I said, we have pieces of the puzzle. I think the spiritual realm is a mystery, but because our scientific laws can't scan it like the Enterprise scanning a Klingon bird of prey, does not mean that it doesn't exist. There is simply too many unexplained things to write off something...more than this corporal realm of existance. My point is that the universe is complicated and there is more than meets the eye.
Anyways, my overall point is, I believe because it's hard to comprehend the universe simply...appeared.
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luit14
Commodore
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 2232
Location: Come on in HEEERE! :P
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:40 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: |
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
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I don't see how you can argue that, and then tell us that the universe just appeared- out of nowhere, just randomly.
And to answer your question; I believe that God has existed forever, but I can't prove it, simply because that is beyond our comprehension.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:14 pm |
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| luit14 wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: |
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
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I don't see how you can argue that, and then tell us that the universe just appeared- out of nowhere, just randomly.
And to answer your question; I believe that God has existed forever, but I can't prove it, simply because that is beyond our comprehension. |
Yeah thats pretty much what I said (right above you), but without my unique commentary.
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luit14
Commodore
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 2232
Location: Come on in HEEERE! :P
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:41 pm |
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I put it in a nutshell for ya.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:15 pm |
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| luit14 wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: |
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
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I don't see how you can argue that, and then tell us that the universe just appeared- out of nowhere, just randomly.
And to answer your question; I believe that God has existed forever, but I can't prove it, simply because that is beyond our comprehension. |
You just totally contradicted yourself without even knowing it.
You don't want people to tell you the universe just appeared out of nowhere, but god has existed forever. That totally makes no sense.
There is no proof god exists, but there is proof the universe exists, at least it exists.
Somehow the universe was created, how we will never know but believing a Higher being like a god doing it is totally illogical since there is absolutely no proof of it. It would be the same as saying the universe was pooped out by a gigantic Rooster(not trying to be disrespectfull here). Except that of course doesn't have its own history, millions of believers and its own book.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:05 pm |
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*sigh* No one is reading my post, figures....
| lionhead wrote: | You just totally contradicted yourself without even knowing it.
You don't want people to tell you the universe just appeared out of nowhere, but god has existed forever. That totally makes no sense.
There is no proof god exists, but there is proof the universe exists, at least it exists.
Somehow the universe was created, how we will never know but believing a Higher being like a god doing it is totally illogical since there is absolutely no proof of it. It would be the same as saying the universe was pooped out by a gigantic Rooster(not trying to be disrespectfull here). Except that of course doesn't have its own history, millions of believers and its own book. |
You too just contradicted yourself. You're saying that the God creating the universe is completely illogical, but the idea it just appeared isn't? Riiiight....
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:03 am |
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| luit14 wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: |
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
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I don't see how you can argue that, and then tell us that the universe just appeared- out of nowhere, just randomly.
And to answer your question; I believe that God has existed forever, but I can't prove it, simply because that is beyond our comprehension. |
Where did I say this? I havn't said it anywhere. Please quote it out for me. A lot of people like myself find random chaos and evolution much easier to believe than the supernatural.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:26 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | luit14 wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: |
The main problem there is if god created the universe, who created god?
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I don't see how you can argue that, and then tell us that the universe just appeared- out of nowhere, just randomly.
And to answer your question; I believe that God has existed forever, but I can't prove it, simply because that is beyond our comprehension. |
Where did I say this? I havn't said it anywhere. Please quote it out for me. A lot of people like myself find random chaos and evolution much easier to believe than the supernatural. |
No it's ok, no one has to read my post. I just wasted time on it for my health.
I pretty much discussed what you said...
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:28 am |
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| Founder wrote: |
And the fact that you can't prove he exists gives me every reason to believe he exists. |
Perhaps. That might work for you but it isn't enough for me to believe in the supernatural that has no prove of existance and cannot be seen, heard, smelt etc.
| Quote: |
Thats the crux of it isn't it? A lot of people tell me that I believe in Catholism cause I've been indoctrinated, brain washed, manipulated, tricked, etc. I believe in a God, not necessarily only the Catholic God, because athiests are asking me to stomach the idea the universe just...appeared. Yes, I find that harder to believe than a man turning wine into water(Christianity), God having an Elephant's head(Hinduism), God created man out of clay/dirt(Islam), and whatever other "myth" there is. How can the universe just....pop up? Doesn't that violate the laws of science? Something coming from nothing? I'm not too versed in science, so I could be wrong on that last statement. The universe is far too complicated, as science has taught us, to just...appear. No amount of science can ever explain that. I'm not even talking about the physical realm of the universe, but the very idea of it. How was the idea of a universe even fathomed? How can something like that appear? Of course, many would argue that it didn't appear as complicated as it is. It evolved and grew. This is possible, but again, the beginnings of it just appeared. Meaning some kind of spark of life appeared and not only that, but it had the potential to grow into a vast universe. How can that...just happen? Are athiests asking me to stomach this while simultaneously saying I have neurological disorder for believing a guy walked on water? Maybe we BOTH should check in the pysch ward eh?
I always ask athiest, what created this? They tell me. Then I go back further. They answer again. I go back even further and it gets to a point where they say "I don't know" and trust me, it's RARE to get them to admit that. None of us truly know. I mean, try to wrap your mind around this. Before the universe there was...what? You can't say nothing, because as ironic as this is, nothing is something. There had to have been complete...void. But even then, a void is something. So its hard to comprehend what was there before the universe was..."formed".
As for, "what created God?" That too is difficult to comprehend(same thing for no God, and just the universe appearing). Then again, you're asking a very Human and scientific question and trying to apply it to a spiritual, powerful being. That type of connection can rarely be made. He is not subject to our laws of science, because he was around BEFORE them. To be honest, I can't answer this question. No one can. Just like the universe argument, it's so hard to wrap your mind around it. I simply can't. But that is not an admission that God does not exist. Again, see my rant about how the universe can not simply...pop up.
I don't have that answers, no one does. I'm not pushing my religion on anyone. I believe that humanity was endowed with pieces of the spiritual puzzle. Each religion, even Aithiest, got a piece of it. Until we unite and apply them together in peace, we will never understand what lies beyond us without dying, of course. I also believe that no religion has the full picture, as I said, we have pieces of the puzzle. I think the spiritual realm is a mystery, but because our scientific laws can't scan it like the Enterprise scanning a Klingon bird of prey, does not mean that it doesn't exist. There is simply too many unexplained things to write off something...more than this corporal realm of existance. My point is that the universe is complicated and there is more than meets the eye.
Anyways, my overall point is, I believe because it's hard to comprehend the universe simply...appeared. |
The thing with believing in science is you actually study this vast universe and analize the contents outside of church to find answers and theories, thats what science is all about. With creation you believe what is told to you and whats laid out in the bible, assuming and developing your own theories on the universe without actually studying the universe... which is strange considering we are trying to find out how the universe is created. How do you do this without studying the universe? Lets face it, if you followed the bible to the letter you probably wouldn't even be able to fart without it being called a 'sin'.
To speculate the universes beginnings through science, I can't say it always existed by at the same time discounting the god always existed theory, but I somehow find the former easier to believe never the less. Even if there was never a beginning, at least I can speculate and theorize that the universe is much less linear than what we all think. I personally think black holes have power to push matter backward in time, and the created and destroyed theory is a lot more complex. Then there is parallel universe and string universe theory.
I don't think that humanity was endowed with pieces of spiritual puzzles. I don't think there is a god are we are not all just subjects of some form of twisted social experiement. I think we are the result of evolution from random chaos. Dna molecules from asteroids, etc. I'm no religion and that works great for me. Religion has only caused problems and murders, suicides & wars etc in the past. Doesn't do anything for me. If god created the universe, did he also create alien cultures throughout the universe. According to the Drake theory he must have.
I don't know whats going to happen when we die, although my theory on death is we vanish into nothingness. Our bodies decompose and our lives are ended.
*edit: sorry Founder I should have answered your post first. My bad.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:46 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Founder wrote: |
And the fact that you can't prove he exists gives me every reason to believe he exists. |
Perhaps. That might work for you but it isn't enough for me to believe in the supernatural that has no prove of existance and cannot be seen, heard, smelt etc.
Well like I said, if science could "prove his existence", then surely that isn't God. Are you telling me that you would believe machinery, MAN MADE, can prove God exists? Or rather, you would believe THEN that is God, when MAN MADE, technology did it? Thats...hard to stomach.
| Quote: |
Thats the crux of it isn't it? A lot of people tell me that I believe in Catholism cause I've been indoctrinated, brain washed, manipulated, tricked, etc. I believe in a God, not necessarily only the Catholic God, because athiests are asking me to stomach the idea the universe just...appeared. Yes, I find that harder to believe than a man turning wine into water(Christianity), God having an Elephant's head(Hinduism), God created man out of clay/dirt(Islam), and whatever other "myth" there is. How can the universe just....pop up? Doesn't that violate the laws of science? Something coming from nothing? I'm not too versed in science, so I could be wrong on that last statement. The universe is far too complicated, as science has taught us, to just...appear. No amount of science can ever explain that. I'm not even talking about the physical realm of the universe, but the very idea of it. How was the idea of a universe even fathomed? How can something like that appear? Of course, many would argue that it didn't appear as complicated as it is. It evolved and grew. This is possible, but again, the beginnings of it just appeared. Meaning some kind of spark of life appeared and not only that, but it had the potential to grow into a vast universe. How can that...just happen? Are athiests asking me to stomach this while simultaneously saying I have neurological disorder for believing a guy walked on water? Maybe we BOTH should check in the pysch ward eh?
I always ask athiest, what created this? They tell me. Then I go back further. They answer again. I go back even further and it gets to a point where they say "I don't know" and trust me, it's RARE to get them to admit that. None of us truly know. I mean, try to wrap your mind around this. Before the universe there was...what? You can't say nothing, because as ironic as this is, nothing is something. There had to have been complete...void. But even then, a void is something. So its hard to comprehend what was there before the universe was..."formed".
As for, "what created God?" That too is difficult to comprehend(same thing for no God, and just the universe appearing). Then again, you're asking a very Human and scientific question and trying to apply it to a spiritual, powerful being. That type of connection can rarely be made. He is not subject to our laws of science, because he was around BEFORE them. To be honest, I can't answer this question. No one can. Just like the universe argument, it's so hard to wrap your mind around it. I simply can't. But that is not an admission that God does not exist. Again, see my rant about how the universe can not simply...pop up.
I don't have that answers, no one does. I'm not pushing my religion on anyone. I believe that humanity was endowed with pieces of the spiritual puzzle. Each religion, even Aithiest, got a piece of it. Until we unite and apply them together in peace, we will never understand what lies beyond us without dying, of course. I also believe that no religion has the full picture, as I said, we have pieces of the puzzle. I think the spiritual realm is a mystery, but because our scientific laws can't scan it like the Enterprise scanning a Klingon bird of prey, does not mean that it doesn't exist. There is simply too many unexplained things to write off something...more than this corporal realm of existance. My point is that the universe is complicated and there is more than meets the eye.
Anyways, my overall point is, I believe because it's hard to comprehend the universe simply...appeared. |
The thing with believing in science is you actually study this vast universe and analize the contents outside of church to find answers and theories, thats what science is all about. With creation you believe what is told to you and whats laid out in the bible, assuming and developing your own theories on the universe without actually studying the universe... which is strange considering we are trying to find out how the universe is created. How do you do this without studying the universe? Lets face it, if you followed the bible to the letter you probably wouldn't even be able to fart without it being called a 'sin'.
Not really. First of all, you're under the impression that to believe in God or creationism, it means you have to believe in Christianity and the Bible. Not true. It could be a God from another religion, or a God that none of us have ever "met".
I'm all for studying the universe and using science, I'm just pointing out that science has no answers to it.
To speculate the universes beginnings through science, I can't say it always existed by at the same time discounting the god always existed theory, but I somehow find the former easier to believe never the less. Even if there was never a beginning, at least I can speculate and theorize that the universe is much less linear than what we all think. I personally think black holes have power to push matter backward in time, and the created and destroyed theory is a lot more complex. Then there is parallel universe and string universe theory.
You find it easier to believe the universe just....always was there, but not God? Strange....
As for the theories you made, they too make little sense. Just like my "God". Because they all require something, but give no explanation to the "beginning" of that something. Even if there is not beginning, for something to just...exist...is hard to comprehend and just as improbably as my "magic being in the sky".
I don't think that humanity was endowed with pieces of spiritual puzzles. I don't think there is a god are we are not all just subjects of some form of twisted social experiement. I think we are the result of evolution from random chaos. Dna molecules from asteroids, etc. I'm no religion and that works great for me. Religion has only caused problems and murders, suicides & wars etc in the past. Doesn't do anything for me. If god created the universe, did he also create alien cultures throughout the universe. According to the Drake theory he must have.
Funny. I thought Humanity was responsible for that, not an ideology that has no power without Humanity. Silly old me....
As for how WE(Humans) came to be? Yes, chances are that it was through evolution. Does that discount God? Nope, not in the least.
I don't know whats going to happen when we die, although my theory on death is we vanish into nothingness. Our bodies decompose and our lives are ended.
Interesting....
*edit: sorry Founder I should have answered your post first. My bad. |
No worries. Thanks for responding.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:02 am |
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| Quote: | | Well like I said, if science could "prove his existence", then surely that isn't God. Are you telling me that you would believe machinery, MAN MADE, can prove God exists? Or rather, you would believe THEN that is God, when MAN MADE, technology did it? Thats...hard to stomach. |
No more along the lines of god will never be proven, but science is always advancing and may be found proven one day. I don't want to believe in something that will never ever be proven and not advancing. At least we have a chance of finding the truth through science.
| Quote: | | I'm all for studying the universe and using science, I'm just pointing out that science has no answers to it. |
Science does have answers to the universe.
I'm also intrested to know if alien cultures would also be gods creation or a product of evolution, the latter making us the only product of creation. If alien cultures also are the product of creation, then god must be a very busy man
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Founder
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:20 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Quote: | | Well like I said, if science could "prove his existence", then surely that isn't God. Are you telling me that you would believe machinery, MAN MADE, can prove God exists? Or rather, you would believe THEN that is God, when MAN MADE, technology did it? Thats...hard to stomach. |
No more along the lines of god will never be proven, but science is always advancing and may be found proven one day. I don't want to believe in something that will never ever be proven and not advancing. At least we have a chance of finding the truth through science.
What proof? Also, science, no matter how advanced can EVER prove that he exists. Not unless he allows it.
You don't want to believe in God simply because science can't prove he exists? Such a dependancy sounds as dangerous as ancient Catholics and their dependancy on the Pope. No offense.
What truth can we find out? About God or the universe? Or both? I don't think any amount of science can prove it. Even if we create a time machine, it would be far too complicated to go into the beginnings of the universe.
| Quote: | | I'm all for studying the universe and using science, I'm just pointing out that science has no answers to it. |
Science does have answers to the universe.
Oh? If that is the case, then there should be no debate here. No offense, but I don't think it has the answers. If you mean THEORIES, then maybe. But even then, the theories make little sense.
I'm also intrested to know if alien cultures would also be gods creation or a product of evolution, the latter making us the only product of creation. If alien cultures also are the product of creation, then god must be a very busy man |
First of all, God and evolution CAN go hand in hand.
Second of all, I don't know the answer to that question. I don't even know the answer about the Human culture, much less a non-proven alien one. 
Is it possible he made aliens? Sure, why not? Humans seem to be un-interesting bipedal species with limited intelligence and emotional problems.
God probably is like "Ok...generic species down. Time to make a cool one with tentacles, telepathy, and space ships! Sweet!"
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
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Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:15 am |
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| Founder wrote: | *sigh* No one is reading my post, figures....
| lionhead wrote: | You just totally contradicted yourself without even knowing it.
You don't want people to tell you the universe just appeared out of nowhere, but god has existed forever. That totally makes no sense.
There is no proof god exists, but there is proof the universe exists, at least it exists.
Somehow the universe was created, how we will never know but believing a Higher being like a god doing it is totally illogical since there is absolutely no proof of it. It would be the same as saying the universe was pooped out by a gigantic Rooster(not trying to be disrespectfull here). Except that of course doesn't have its own history, millions of believers and its own book. |
You too just contradicted yourself. You're saying that the God creating the universe is completely illogical, but the idea it just appeared isn't? Riiiight.... |
i never said it just appeared, that was you. All i said is there is proof the universe at least exists. My believes don't say something created the universe, you can't possibly know that. However people who confidently say the niverse was created by a god while there is no proof of that at all is in my eyes not very wise. Its ironic actually.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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luit14
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Location: Come on in HEEERE! :P
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:26 pm |
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Ok, I've got a question for the evolutionists. How do you explain the Cambrian explosion? According to scientific dating methods on fossils, it took like 17 billion years for the smallest most basic one celled creature to appear. And then like another 10 billion years for the next form of life which was like 2 celled. And then all of a sudden in a period of 500 million years much more complex creatures appear on the scene.
According to evolution this shouldn't have happened. Such evidence points in the direction of a creator in my opinion. This is taking into account that in the original Greek the word day is etos, which means "period of time." So personally I believe the 6 days are 6 periods of time in which God created different things.
It makes more sense to me that God was creating the world and that is why animals appear so suddenly.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:45 pm |
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There are different reasons for varying rates of evolution. There are quite a few periods when evolution seemed to speed up. The most accepted theories for the cambrian explosion include climate changes and increased competition. Animals would obviously have to quickly adapt to survive. It makes sense. Also, they've recently discovered pre-cambrian evidence of more complex organisms.
And what exactly would be the point of some supreme being creating one-celled organisms, then two-celled organisms, and rather "suddenly" vertebrates?
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:56 pm |
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| Leo Wyatt wrote: | Sorry to bring this back up.
Everything Designed Has A Designer
Have you ever pondered all that's involved in the simple act of seeing? Scientists tell us that the delicate engineering of the eye's cornea and lens make the most advanced camera seem like a child's toy by comparison. The Tiny rods and cones in the eye change light into electro-chemical impulses through processes the most sophicated laboratory can't reproduce. And brain cells transform these electrical impulses into the miracle of perception-something no high-tech computer can come close to doing.
Engineering, chemistry, information processing -all are involved every time we open our eyes. Charles Darwin once stated that the thought of the eye, and how it would possibly be produce by natural selection, made him ill. Here's why.
The human eye could not evolved over long periods of time , because it is absolutely useless complete. The lens , which focuses light, would be useless withou the retina, which senses light. And all the light received would serve no purpose without fiber which carry signals to the brain.
Vision involves a complete system of organs-all interrelated, all thoroughly designed. That's the way it is with the whole human body. Lungs and heart, nerves and muscles, all perform incredibly complicated tasks that depend on other incredibly complicated tasks. No wonder the Psalmist included that the human body speaks loud and clear of a wonderful Creator:
'' I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made ; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.'' Psalms 139:14 ( Unless otherwise noted)
We don't have to go far to find the works of God. The evidence right in our own bodies points to an infinitely skillful designer.
If you were to mark ten coins from one ten, place them in your pocket, shake them around, and then pull each one out and put it back in your pocket one by one, what is likelihood you could do so in exact numerical sequence? By mathemathical law you have only one chance in ten billion of taking them out in order from one to ten.
Now consider the chances of a stomach, brain, heart, lungs, arteries, veins, kidneys, ears, eyes, and teeth all developing together and beginning to function at the same moment in time. What is the most reasonable explanation for the design of the human body?
'' Then God said,'' Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,'' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him male and female he created them.''
Genesis 1:26-27
The first man and woman could not just have happened. The bible affirms that God designed us un his image. he is the great engineering intelligence who thought us up and brought us into being.
2: Everything Made Has a Maker
But evidence for God is not confined to the design of our bodies, it's also spread across the heavens.
Leave the lights of the city and go out in the country. Look up into the night sky. That milky cloud beyond the stars that we call the Milky Way is really a galaxy, or island universe, of billions of blazing suns similar to our sun. In fact our sun and it's planets are a part of the Milky Way.
'' The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour fourth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.''
Pslams 19:1-3
What may we reasonably conclude by looking at the intricate design and vast size of the universe?
'' (God) is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Colossains 1:17
All creation boldly testifies: God Designed! God Created ! From the perfect balance of proton and electron in the atom to the whirl of planets around the sun we find evidence of a master plan , a master thinker, of God the Master Designer and the Infinite Creator.
When an anthropogist, digging in the sands of New Mexico, comes across a triangler-shaped stone, he examines it carefully. If he sees markings on the stone that suggests it has been chiseled into shape, he immediately concludes that an American Indian created the object. He will even attempt to assign a date to the arrowhead, and determine which Indian tribe it belonged to.
No anthropologist worth his salt ever argues that arrowheads got there by chance.. No one has attempted to explain that lightning or wind and water could have shaped these objects. It seems perfectly obivous to everone that a human being made them.
Yet when many scientists dig up fossils, evidence of living things from the past, they make very different assumption. They don't see the hand of a creator, they assume these creatures must have produced by the blind forces of nature, that they just naturally evolved. The animal fossils we discover, even those buried deepest in the geologic layers, represent creatures infinitely more complex than any arrowhead. So why not draw the obivous conclusion: some had to create them? The bible says a logical answer to the question of origins:
'' In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1
In these simple words, in the beginning God,'' we find the answer to the mystery of life. The first doctrine recorded in the bible is that there is a God, in fact, this first verse in the bible tells us of his mighty act of creation.
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I know there are people that still don't believe in God and I respect that. I don't if I should bring this topic back up again, but I was never good at debating. |
If you don't write something yourself, you should really put it in quotes and give a source. Could you please? Thanks.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Founder
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| Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:43 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | | i never said it just appeared, that was you. All i said is there is proof the universe at least exists. My believes don't say something created the universe, you can't possibly know that. However people who confidently say the niverse was created by a god while there is no proof of that at all is in my eyes not very wise. Its ironic actually. |
Um...if you don't believe God made it, then chances are, you subscribed to the "I believe it just popped up" theory. You didn't have to say it. There is proof the universe exists? So what? What does that have to do with anything? No one here is debating if the universe is real or not.
You can't possibly know that a creator didn't make the universe. See? When you argue like that, it just goes in circles. Try to add more. Instead of just saying "I don't think you all are wise."
There is no proof that God created the universe? Really? Got your eyes checked lately?
BTW, what you described is not ironic in the least.
| Quote: | | And what exactly would be the point of some supreme being creating one-celled organisms, then two-celled organisms, and rather "suddenly" vertebrates? |
Many believe that God created evolution and let it take it's toll. Not that he sat and experimented, which is why it happened the way you decribed.
Last edited by Founder on Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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