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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
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Location: Silverdale, WA
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 Mon May 29, 2006 12:32 pm |
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Ah, but according to Chrsti Golden, (Yes, I know NOT canon, but it is way to clever for her to have come up with on her own, so I believe this came from TREK and she just used it) The BORG create the new Queen. There's a "Royal Protocol" in creating a new Queen. And if the Borg don't know how to follow that protocol and create a new Queen, then how can they she come back? Then how can the Borg come back? They can't...
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"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Mon May 29, 2006 12:37 pm |
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Like you said, it's not canon 
There could be something similar, no doubt, but untill its on screen a book is not what will give me the answer
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon May 29, 2006 12:37 pm |
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| La Forge wrote: | http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg
Read all of the links and whatnot. It is unknown whether or not the Borg are truly defeated.
Trust me...Paramount would not allow the most famous and one of the coolest ST race (to the newer viewers, at least) be killed off. That's just wrong. Plus...I still don't think that Voyager could even do that. Voyager bent the rules...a LOT. In a bad way. Just like LB said. I'm not a VOY fan and I'll never be one. Borg Queen's have been killed before. She'll be back. Plus...really...this "Central Plexus" thing already breaks established canon. Go check out the Borg Queen MA page. The Borg Queen does NOT control the entire Collective. The Collective CAN function without her.
Plus...even if the Borg are destroyed. Seven can go crazy and assimilate everyone on Voyager...HOORAY!!! Please do, Seven. Then blow up Voyager. |
I don't see this Memory Alpha as canon. I don't see anything saying that it is Sanctioned by Paramount to make it canon.
Not to mention, if it's on screen then it's canon, so it can't really break "canon," can it? No it can't. They brought the Queen on in FC so they could give the Borg a face...that's what they did...so then if you want to get technical, then FC broke your so called "already established canon" timeline. And it would make sense that when they put the "face" on the Borg as they did, that they already had the Central Plexus thought up BEFORE the episode "Unimatrix Zero."
You don't just go create something without having something created to make it work. You may bring on the Queen and not reveal her Central Plexus until much later...as they obviously did on Voyager.
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"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Mon May 29, 2006 12:38 pm |
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Memory Alpha has ONLY canon information.
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_Queen
Read that article. The Borg Queen is NOT essential.
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Go Red Sox!
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon May 29, 2006 12:40 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | Like you said, it's not canon
There could be something similar, no doubt, but untill its on screen a book is not what will give me the answer |
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree...but as I said, it's far too complex for just the author to have made up. And as I just posted above, Trek doesn't create something, then not have a back up as to how it works already on paper. So when the Queen told Picard "You think in such 3-Dimensional terms..." That could lead us to believe that the Cube was linked to the Unicomplex in the DQ when Picard was assimilated, and upon the loss of that Cube the Borg created another Queen. Obviously. It makes perfect sense and as I said, far too complex to be the author's fantasy.
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Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Mon May 29, 2006 12:43 pm |
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Far to complex? no its not, I could have made something like that up, so could have La Forge or Founder. Authors rarely work with paramount on the books.
FYI, MA is canon for the most part, as they write information taken from the movies and episodes (Ignore info from trek V (No, I dont mean Enterprise I mean the MOVIE) and The animated series)
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon May 29, 2006 12:52 pm |
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Canon info vs. being sanctioned by Paramount are 2 different things. Someone could very well create a site and put canon info on it and their own opinions as canon. It's not difficult.
Like this for instance:
| Quote: | | Borg drones were capable of functioning without a Queen for any length of time by forming a Hive mind of their own. (VOY: "Unity") |
They didn't form their own Hive mind...Seven of Nine did that to prevent them from running and not accept re-assimilation into the Collective. That was clearly stated in the episode referenced above, yet they didn't say that. They said "they created it and managed to survive." They neglected to mention that they did go crazy and remember their lives...So it may have canon info, but they can influence the information in any way they want. If I didn't know better, I would have believed the statement above...
| Quote: | the Queen replied that Picard had become small, thinking in three-dimensional terms. If this was meant to imply she'd escaped somehow, or if she was a different Queen with the same memories as the one on that cube, is not clear.
This was further complicated by the re-appearance of a Queen during the run of Voyager but was not directly addressed. |
Hmm...leading to support my belief that the Royal Protocol might be something real...or something along the lines thereof...
| Quote: | | The death of a Borg Queen does not seem to affect the Borg Collective nor its Hive mind. When a Borg drone died, its memories would still be within the Hive mind. There was no evidence that a Borg Queen would be more than a drone. |
Yes, they're right that the Borg aren't affected by the loss of a Queen. Simply make a new one...but they didn't take into account for the loss of the Queen's technology that regulated the Borg and KEPT THEM LINKED together...Like the Central Plexus, for instance, and other possible equipment that supports that...So they are talking about if JUST the Queen was lost, not "The Queen and her supporting technology."
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Mon May 29, 2006 1:00 pm |
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We've lost site of the original topic at hand. If you feel the need to discuss canon/non-canon, or are the Borg really dead, feel free to make a new topic.
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Lord Borg
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| Mon May 29, 2006 1:01 pm |
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first of all, anything thats speculation or opinion is CLEARLY stated as so, thus, its canon otherwise. (If paramount says none of its cannon, then they kill trek)
And I saw this episodes many, many times. They DID form their own hive mind, whether seven started it or not they DID.
Again, could be something similar, and you can have a theroy but untill its on screen, my answers will form from what I can see from on screen, not a book.
She brought order to the borg. I'm sure that a new one could be made, if wasnt already made, and you notice she dont always need to be "physical" to make the borg work...
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Voyager2004
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| Mon May 29, 2006 1:04 pm |
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She didn't need to always be physical to make it work...it was just less costly to have her in physical form...otherwise they use CG up the whazoo to make her and that costs money... 
Sorry, BOT...
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Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Mon May 29, 2006 1:32 pm |
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voyager2004, you have clearly no clue on how the borg operate. So shut up.
You claim all these things that the Borg and queen are but you have no Proof of backing those claims up.
We don't know what the uncomplex was for, we don't even know for sure what the Borg Queen is for.
Sure, she can regulate the Borg actions, but she doesn't regulate all of it. If oyu know how the borg work you would know that.
Anyways, the borg aren't destroyed so they could attack Earth again if they wanted to. With or without a queen.
and i think i explained what happened in "Dark Frontier". The borg queen might have been destroyed in that episode as well.
But she was destroyed in First Contact s well, no problem for the borg.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Mon May 29, 2006 1:40 pm |
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Guys, T said to stop this discussion, so lets stop. Shes right. This topic isn't about if the Borg were destroyed or not.
Completely different subject...
As for the subject matter, what I can't wrap my mind around is "Why don't the Borg try the going back in time and destroying humanity thing again? I mean, it would have worked the first time if the ENT-E hadn't gotten LUCKY and follow the sphere in the temporal wake...
All they need to do is send two, maybe three for good measure, cubes into the Alpha. They would WIN earth. You see in VOY they clearly have about a million cubes that are just floating around. You can send three QUICKLY, assimilate the planet and thats that...
Lets be honest here, this is a plot hole they never could explain.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
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Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon May 29, 2006 1:45 pm |
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Hmm...well the Unicomplex would be a likely place, of many, to have shipyards...duh. Common sense. It's obviously their base operating grounds. So if you couldn't figure that out on your own, then maybe I'm not the one who doesn't understand how they operate.
The Borg Queen clearly regulated the Borg. She brings "order to Chaos." She was also the "face" to the Borg that Trek was seeking for FC...so again, if you couldn't figure that out....
So what proof do you want? Be specific. I haven't said anything here without proof...CANON proof, that is. What do you want? Because there is nothing I have said above that requires DIRECTLY the word PROOF that you're seeking.
And she does regulate ALL of it...I mean, she destroyed how many of her OWN Borg ships in "Unimatrix Zero." We only saw her destroy 3...but I'm confident to say that I'm sure there were more that "convinced" Janeway to contact Chakotay to "Bring Down Unimatrix Zero."
what did you "Explain" happened in "Dark Frontier?"
And again, yes she was destroyed in FC, no problem for the Borg, but you're again not taking into consideration the Central Plexus and other technologies that were destroyed in "Endgame." 
----EDIT-----
Sorry Founder, you hadn't posted your above comment when started to post mine...Just wanted to let you know that I wasn't trying to undermind you...
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Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Lord Borg
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Joined: 27 May 2003
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Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Mon May 29, 2006 3:07 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | voyager2004, you have clearly no clue on how the borg operate. So shut up.
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If I ever see a comment like that again to anyone, you will recive a warning.
From this point on, no more discusion about what the borg queen is, and what her role is, the discussion is why the borg havent assmilated earth yet.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
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Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Mon May 29, 2006 4:23 pm |
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| Founder wrote: |
All they need to do is send two, maybe three for good measure, cubes into the Alpha. They would WIN earth. You see in VOY they clearly have about a million cubes that are just floating around. You can send three QUICKLY, assimilate the planet and thats that...
Lets be honest here, this is a plot hole they never could explain. |
I have been trying to epxlain why the Borg only send 1 cube, but appearently nobody listens....
Fact: The first time the borg attacked earth, there was only 1 cube. But this cube first detroyed the only colony on Jouret IV(probsbly too get information bout their target, locations of Defenses and such), then its also destroyed a Ship that encountered the Cube earlier too the big battle. TThe cube then met the Enterprise and attacked it and captured Picard after which they set a course for sector 01, Earth.
It arrived at Wolf 359 System and was engaged by the Federation and Klingon Fleet. It destroyed the Earth fleet at Wolf 359. Then the Crew of the Enterprise-E catch up to the Cube once it reaches earth and take back Locutus and with a lot of luck they could send a message through picard towards the Cube and it blows itself up. Without that, the Cube would have succeeded, a perfect calculation by the borg
Now, you all think since they are defeated they needed to have send more Cubes the second time they would invade... Alright:
Fact 2: The Second time the Borg attacked the Federation is when a Cube is detected near Deep Space 5 where it destroyed a colony(probably with the same reason as the first time). The cube has its course set for earth and has no intention of stopping.
However, this time Borg make it too earth first and then are engaged by the Fleet, instead of the first time it was 8 lightyears before earth, at Wolf 359. So i tihnk they got a little closer then the last tim don't you think? If they where expecting what they encountered at Wolf 359 they wouldn't have any problems would they?
Also, it has been 6 years so the borg where much more advanced in technology by now. so did the humans but they couldn't possibly know how much since the last time they met, they assumed that the Federation is still weak or even weaker.
But, one thing is different. This time, this time the borg Queen is with them. Aha, something a little better then the first time they attacked. Maybe it they did only send 1 cube because the Queen was with them this time, a Vessel too talk too the Humans on earth, or when heir cube is destroyed they would send a Sphere back into time. That was their plan, that was the smart thing to do.
There, happy now?
They had a plan to take over earth the second time, they failed. Now, the borg need to rethink their strategy, maybe get new technology i don't know. I couldn't possibly know.
Alright, a second thought:
Why attack earth? Why, for technolgoy? For Troops? Strategic reasons? Who knows right? But why wait 6 years to attack the Federation a second time?
Perhaps they are afraid of us, perhaps after the Cube is destroyed they don't find us worthy enough to send antoher one, maybe they only attack when they find Humanity is Technologically advanced enough to be assimilated. But not immediately afterwards, they have better things to do i assume. More pressing matters.
So maybe when Voyager got home ,although being very damaged by the attack on their queen the borg will try it again, once Voyager got home they will Attack earth again because they have something to get from them: Technology.
Who knows what they will send as an Invasion.
Anybody got any response on my little thougts?
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Founder
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| Mon May 29, 2006 4:41 pm |
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Yes I have a response to your little thoughts. You're argument, while well written, holds very little merit and no, I'm not happy now.
You're trying to argue that since it ALMOST worked, they should keep going at it over and over and over until it finally does.
It doesn't matter if they are SLOWLY getting closer. Sending two cubes, just two frigging cubes, could get them to win earth. If they ALMOST did it with one cube as you keep pointing out, then surely two would easily win it.
As for the queen being there to establish dialouge. Last time I saw that movie, she didn't talk to anyone. She simply led the battle and then desperatly tried to screw up earth's past in a DESPERATE effort to defeat them.
Now think about THAT. The Borg have always been unsuccesful in attacking the Federation. Only Wolf 359 was there biggest victory. Other than that? Nothing really. The Borg don't invade for one of several reasons...
1) Fear. Thats right, they are scared of humanity. Even the Q have commented that humanity is extremely unique. Perhaps they are fearful of humanity, especially after all the loses.
2) The Borg are not as powerful as they make themselves out to be. All those ships I said they could send, are NEEDED to hold their space. Although that argument holds very little merit since one they conquer you, you're either dead or serving them. So the worry of rebellion is...strange.
3) All the affects of Hugh rebellion, the disease VOY imparted on them, etc has taken a much bigger toll then they let on.
4) The war with Species 8472 has taken a REALLY bad turn...
I'm sure there are other reasons, but many don't really make sense minus the first one.
Their plan WAS smart. The only problem is, they are so stupid not to try it again. The Borg supposedly have the knowledge of MILLIONS of species right? Not one was a warlike or strategic species? Surely, they can figure out that going back to the Alpha quadrant AWAY from ANY ships and doing the temporarl thing again can work. It ONLY failed cause the USS Enterprise-E was pulled into their temporal wake. Thats it. If they tried it again, they would win. Pretty STUPID if you ask me. How can 20 year old Human figure it out but the Borg can't?
Why attack Earth? Because they seek perfection and knowledge. Not worthy? If we can thwart them so many times, they would find us VERY worthy. If a species easily falls under their power, that was just another day for them, but humanity obviously has something they seek.
More pressing matters? Like what?
Yes, maybe they will try it again, I don't know. It just makes little sense that they don't send more than one cube...
BTW? You didn't REALLY answer that question. You simply justified why they sent one cube those times that they did. I think we're asking why didn't they send more than one AFTER Best of Both Worlds I and II and First Contact.
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
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Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Mon May 29, 2006 5:10 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | Yes I have a response to your little thoughts. You're argument, while well written, holds very little merit and no, I'm not happy now.
Ok, my apologies
You're trying to argue that since it ALMOST worked, they should keep going at it over and over and over until it finally does.
It doesn't matter if they are SLOWLY getting closer. Sending two cubes, just two frigging cubes, could get them to win earth. If they ALMOST did it with one cube as you keep pointing out, then surely two would easily win it.
they sure would, but again: Why send 2 cubes when they can win with 1? 1 cube takes out both the Federation fleet, Klingon fleet, Romlucan fleet, hell take the Dominion and Cardasians fleet as well, they can take it all on with just 1 cube, so why send 2? The only reason they where beat is Picard, they know that, so why increase their forces? what good will that do? if they would have sen 2, 3, 20 cubes the irst time they would have all 20 been destroyed since they assimilated picard and the crew of the Enterpise send that signal towards the cube(s) that would blow them all up. no point, number isn't always the answer to victory(sun tzu tight?)
As for the queen being there to establish dialouge. Last time I saw that movie, she didn't talk to anyone. She simply led the battle and then desperatly tried to screw up earth's past in a DESPERATE effort to defeat them.
Maybe she only went to talk to Picard, or she didn't get a chance since they where immediately attacked by the fleet, or, she way waiting in the Sphere to be released and go back in time
Now think about THAT. The Borg have always been unsuccesful in attacking the Federation. Only Wolf 359 was there biggest victory. Other than that? Nothing really. The Borg don't invade for one of several reasons...
1) Fear. Thats right, they are scared of humanity. Even the Q have commented that humanity is extremely unique. Perhaps they are fearful of humanity, especially after all the loses.
Maybe they only fear picard
2) The Borg are not as powerful as they make themselves out to be. All those ships I said they could send, are NEEDED to hold their space. Although that argument holds very little merit since one they conquer you, you're either dead or serving them. So the worry of rebellion is...strange.
Rebellion? what are you talking about? Species 8472 is fightig them, they need to hold that line. I'm sure there are more species that are battling them. in them ean time they are exploring space as well. Al those cubes they have are gonna be worth nothing if they are at just 1 place, while thy are attackedo n theo ther side of the glaaxy by species 8472
3) All the affects of Hugh rebellion, the disease VOY imparted on them, etc has taken a much bigger toll then they let on.
We don't know how badly it has affected them, so a future attack is only distant speculation. Nothin,g absolutely nothing can be said about any future plans by the borg
4) The war with Species 8472 has taken a REALLY bad turn...
I'm sure there are other reasons, but many don't really make sense minus the first one.
Their plan WAS smart. The only problem is, they are so stupid not to try it again. The Borg supposedly have the knowledge of MILLIONS of species right? Not one was a warlike or strategic species? Surely, they can figure out that going back to the Alpha quadrant AWAY from ANY ships and doing the temporarl thing again can work. It ONLY failed cause the USS Enterprise-E was pulled into their temporal wake. Thats it. If they tried it again, they would win. Pretty STUPID if you ask me. How can 20 year old Human figure it out but the Borg can't?
well, not millions, the newest species known to Humans is species 10026, so they have the knowledge of a little more then 10026 species when voyager got home. But the borg don't think as a 20 year old Human, they think efficiently, and attacking the Humans again is just not efficient, it would be much more efficient to find new technology then attack Humanity again, we are not worth the resources and time. I mean, what is Worthy for Borg anyways? Why aren't the Kazon worthy? Why was species 10026 worthy while they didn't even had Warp flight?
Also, there is probably a reason fr their unuse of Time Travel, i mean, why haven't we? Surely the borg have their reasons, maybe becasue they believe in pefection, and the past can't give them that
Why attack Earth? Because they seek perfection and knowledge. Not worthy? If we can thwart them so many times, they would find us VERY worthy. If a species easily falls under their power, that was just another day for them, but humanity obviously has something they seek.
Because we beat a cube doesn't make us assimilate worthy, other species have probably destroyed many cubes(like Icheb's species) but they are still unassimilated(maybe even kazon did)
More pressing matters? Like what?
Species 8472, New Technology, etc.
Yes, maybe they will try it again, I don't know. It just makes little sense that they don't send more than one cube...
BTW? You didn't REALLY answer that question. You simply justified why they sent one cube those times that they did. I think we're asking why didn't they send more than one AFTER Best of Both Worlds I and II and First Contact.
Maybe they will, but not yet. Maybe they need to recover from dmiral Janway's attack, maybe they are busy with Species 8472. Who knows? |
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La Forge
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| Mon May 29, 2006 5:14 pm |
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| Quote: | | they sure would, but again: Why send 2 cubes when they can win with 1? 1 cube takes out both the Federation fleet, Klingon fleet, Romlucan fleet, hell take the Dominion and Cardasians fleet as well, they can take it all on with just 1 cube, so why send 2? The only reason they where beat is Picard, they know that, so why increase their forces? what good will that do? if they would have sen 2, 3, 20 cubes the irst time they would have all 20 been destroyed since they assimilated picard and the crew of the Enterpise send that signal towards the cube(s) that would blow them all up. no point, number isn't always the answer to victory(sun tzu tight?) |
The Borg couldn't take the Dominion...
Now, that's laughable... 
Last edited by La Forge on Mon May 29, 2006 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Founder
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| Mon May 29, 2006 5:28 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: | Ok, my apologies
None are needed, I was just being sarcastic. 
they sure would, but again: Why send 2 cubes when they can win with 1? 1 cube takes out both the Federation fleet, Klingon fleet, Romlucan fleet, hell take the Dominion and Cardasians fleet as well, they can take it all on with just 1 cube, so why send 2? The only reason they where beat is Picard, they know that, so why increase their forces? what good will that do? if they would have sen 2, 3, 20 cubes the irst time they would have all 20 been destroyed since they assimilated picard and the crew of the Enterpise send that signal towards the cube(s) that would blow them all up. no point, number isn't always the answer to victory(sun tzu tight?)
You prove an excellant point that if they had sent many cubes that ONE time, all the cubes would have been destroyed, but again, how often are these circumstances going to happen? Number isn't ALWAYS the answer yes, the Dominion taught us this. But the Borg are more about brute force, not subterfuge like the Dominion. The Borg simply inavade and conquer, nothing more usually. BTW? You're kidding right? ONE cube against a Fed., Rom, Klin, Dom, Car, fleet? They would lose miserably.
Why increase their forces? Because while ONE cube is holding off those fleets and Picard, another can just head to Earth and assimilate it.
Maybe she only went to talk to Picard, or she didn't get a chance since they where immediately attacked by the fleet, or, she way waiting in the Sphere to be released and go back in time
They weren't suddenly attacked by the fleet, they made the first move. Nothing implied that she was waiting for Picard, in fact when she spoke to him finally, she didn't seem to care about him. Then again, that might have been because she had Data at that point.
Maybe they only fear picard
Maybe.
Rebellion? what are you talking about? Species 8472 is fightig them, they need to hold that line. I'm sure there are more species that are battling them. in them ean time they are exploring space as well. Al those cubes they have are gonna be worth nothing if they are at just 1 place, while thy are attackedo n theo ther side of the glaaxy by species 8472
What am I talking about? Hugh, last time I checked, was leading a Borg rebellion. Last time I checked on VOY, Seven of Nine helped to free many drones, but it isn't clear if they are leading a rebellion.
I didn't say send ALL the cubes to 1 place. Only two or three.
We don't know how badly it has affected them, so a future attack is only distant speculation. Nothin,g absolutely nothing can be said about any future plans by the borg
True true.
4) The war with Species 8472 has taken a REALLY bad turn...
well, not millions, the newest species known to Humans is species 10026, so they have the knowledge of a little more then 10026 species when voyager got home. But the borg don't think as a 20 year old Human, they think efficiently, and attacking the Humans again is just not efficient, it would be much more efficient to find new technology then attack Humanity again, we are not worth the resources and time. I mean, what is Worthy for Borg anyways? Why aren't the Kazon worthy? Why was species 10026 worthy while they didn't even had Warp flight?
Also, there is probably a reason fr their unuse of Time Travel, i mean, why haven't we? Surely the borg have their reasons, maybe becasue they believe in pefection, and the past can't give them that
Not millions? Didn't the Borg queen say something she had the knowledge of millions of species in First Contact? I could be wrong though.
Also, just because Humans know the Borg have up to that many species, means nothing. Humans don't know all.
Attacking humans again IS efficient because Humanity is a threat to them. Picard and Janeway(UGH) have proven that over and over. Attacking Humanity for self preservation sounds like a good idea to me and not a waste of resources. Again, sending two cubes will waste their resources. That is like saying Americans need two canons to take a Native American tribe.
That Kazon aren't worthy cause they add nothing for the Borg except a group of barbaric nomads turned drones.
Humanity on the other hand has proven to be unique.
Why haven't we used time travel? Last time I checked we did use it, to help people, not to attack others. We'd have no reason to. Also, in the 24th century, they have not mastered it.
Because we beat a cube doesn't make us assimilate worthy, other species have probably destroyed many cubes(like Icheb's species) but they are still unassimilated(maybe even kazon did)
Yes, many species probably blew up a cube, but you know what? I bet all those species in the end were probably assimilated. We haven't been. That is what makes us different.
Species 8472, New Technology, etc.
I doubt it. Humanity is too big of a threat to ignore.
Maybe they will, but not yet. Maybe they need to recover from dmiral Janway's attack, maybe they are busy with Species 8472. Who knows? |
Well, I'm not asking if they WILL attack again. My question is more in the realm of why didn't they do this between First Contact and the last VOY episode....
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Dracojastin
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 102
Location: Holodeck 2 NL
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| Mon May 29, 2006 5:34 pm |
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First want to thank you all in giving your view about my question. And even dough Theresa is right i still enjoyed the Borg queen conversation. So thx for that 
Well about the main question again...
The one cube or one vessel theory from Lionhead.... Well i don't think thats true... I mean it's simple calculations. send one vessel 2 times or send 2 vessels one time... Clearly an obvious choice...
I don't think the Borg are so stupid that they really keep trying their so called one vessel tactic. So i think it is a different kind of mission. Their first priority would be something like: Check the technological advancements starfleet has made. If knowledge obtained inflict damage on starfleet... Something like that.
So I still think it's a way for the borg to collect new information the federation and it's technology.
And there was mention fear within the borg?
I mean come on.... The only borg that has showed fear was the borg queen. The Borg queen is the only one with her emotions in tact. The rest are just worker drones. So it could be her fear of starfleet... But that i doubt greatly. I think that she has some kind of affection for humanity.
Due to whatever reason that may be. She like Locutus or something or just admire our race... That was also the reason to not assimillate seven at on point... to preserve her humanity... And so far with locutus... He was different from the other drones aswell.... So i think she sees some kind of potential in the human race... I don't know what exactly... our fast grow in technology or our human charactistics (don't know if that word is written correctly).
Hope to set some kind of idea to build motives on...
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Mon May 29, 2006 6:03 pm |
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| Founder wrote: |
You prove an excellant point that if they had sent many cubes that ONE time, all the cubes would have been destroyed, but again, how often are these circumstances going to happen? Number isn't ALWAYS the answer yes, the Dominion taught us this. But the Borg are more about brute force, not subterfuge like the Dominion. The Borg simply inavade and conquer, nothing more usually. BTW? You're kidding right? ONE cube against a Fed., Rom, Klin, Dom, Car, fleet? They would lose miserably.
The borg are about Effiency, not brute force. 1 cube is more effient as 2, in resources way.
and, perhaps if you take out the Dominion... They can beat the Cardassians and Romulans can't they? I mean, they can beat the Federation and Klingons with ease, so why not the cardassians and romulans with them? Their weapons are just the same, won't do a thing.
Why increase their forces? Because while ONE cube is holding off those fleets and Picard, another can just head to Earth and assimilate it.
Sure, and a little girl is send to Vuclan to infiltrate the planet.... NAh, just kidding. The borg just don't think lie that, they do'believe in sneak attacks, or diversions. Have they ever used that?
They weren't suddenly attacked by the fleet, they made the first move. Nothing implied that she was waiting for Picard, in fact when she spoke to him finally, she didn't seem to care about him. Then again, that might have been because she had Data at that point.
i didn't say suddenly, i said immediately, no time to talk to the fleet(althought it would in fact be stupid of the queen to actually believe they would listen)
Maybe they only fear picard
What am I talking about? Hugh, last time I checked, was leading a Borg rebellion. Last time I checked on VOY, Seven of Nine helped to free many drones, but it isn't clear if they are leading a rebellion.
Oh, you mean borg rebellion, yeah. That could be a problem as well.... would be a nice movie, after the homecoming of voyager Species 8472 and the Rebellion start the biggest campaign in the history of the Galaxy to take care of the borg once and for all.... Anyways
I didn't say send ALL the cubes to 1 place. Only two or three.
Those 2 and 3 could be just the number they where missing, Calculations Founder, efficiency.
Not millions? Didn't the Borg queen say something she had the knowledge of millions of species in First Contact? I could be wrong though.
When Data said he could not be assimilated the Queen said she heard the same thing from thousands of species from thousands of world, and now they are all borg(except a few of course)
Also, just because Humans know the Borg have up to that many species, means nothing. Humans don't know all.
they don't know, i said just a little bit above 10026(maybe 10100)
Attacking humans again IS efficient because Humanity is a threat to them. Picard and Janeway(UGH) have proven that over and over. Attacking Humanity for self preservation sounds like a good idea to me and not a waste of resources. Again, sending two cubes will waste their resources. That is like saying Americans need two canons to take a Native American tribe.
[b] How are we a threath? Sure, after all what happened in VOY, but before that we where just a little skitmark.
That Kazon aren't worthy cause they add nothing for the Borg except a group of barbaric nomads turned drones.
so did we in TNG's time
Humanity on the other hand has proven to be unique.
Why haven't we used time travel? Last time I checked we did use it, to help people, not to attack others. We'd have no reason to. Also, in the 24th century, they have not mastered it.
They did go back, the borg. So they could have sooner, and aferwards. If we wanted we could go back, but we don't for our reasons, the borg have too
Yes, many species probably blew up a cube, but you know what? I bet all those species in the end were probably assimilated. We haven't been. That is what makes us different.
Icheb's species isn't. what about Ferengi, Vaadwaur and Species 116?
I doubt it. Humanity is too big of a threat to ignore.
we might be after what Admiral Janeway, but we dont know what will happen next.
Well, I'm not asking if they WILL attack again. My question is more in the realm of why didn't they do this between First Contact and the last VOY episode....
we where not a threath at all back then. Who knows, maybe the second time the Borg attacked it wasn't for assimilation of earth at all, but the first time they have made a working time travelling device and they just made Earth a Test Subject, to start the new life in the past, a good start point. |
| Dracojastin wrote: | The one cube or one vessel theory from Lionhead.... Well i don't think thats true... I mean it's simple calculations. send one vessel 2 times or send 2 vessels one time... Clearly an obvious choice...
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Not really. If you have too watch out for your neighbourse dog, a small Chihuahua yo go into the house alone. But, the dog is angry and you are suprised by it and bitten, you go back to your house too tak car of your wound thinking "Stupid dog, cuaght me offg gaurd, i have to distract it while i feed it, ro perhaps lock it up in a room" But when you go back too the house do you call a S.W.A.T. team to back you up ? No you go alone. Right?
| Quote: | I don't think the Borg are so stupid that they really keep trying their so called one vessel tactic. So i think it is a different kind of mission. Their first priority would be something like: Check the technological advancements starfleet has made. If knowledge obtained inflict damage on starfleet... Something like that.
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They did by attacking those colonies before they headed towards earth. Both times.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Dracojastin
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 102
Location: Holodeck 2 NL
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| Mon May 29, 2006 6:18 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: |
| Dracojastin wrote: | The one cube or one vessel theory from Lionhead.... Well i don't think thats true... I mean it's simple calculations. send one vessel 2 times or send 2 vessels one time... Clearly an obvious choice...
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Not really. If you have too watch out for your neighbourse dog, a small Chihuahua yo go into the house alone. But, the dog is angry and you are suprised by it and bitten, you go back to your house too tak car of your wound thinking "Stupid dog, cuaght me offg gaurd, i have to distract it while i feed it, ro perhaps lock it up in a room" But when you go back too the house do you call a S.W.A.T. team to back you up ? No you go alone. Right?
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Whahaha I really like that example....
But i think i would first get information about the dog.
And then make clear if i would be apropriate to feed it or not.
If i would i would always be carful about it. So i would not go in blind and will not be bitten off guard...
| lionhead wrote: |
| Quote: | I don't think the Borg are so stupid that they really keep trying their so called one vessel tactic. So i think it is a different kind of mission. Their first priority would be something like: Check the technological advancements starfleet has made. If knowledge obtained inflict damage on starfleet... Something like that.
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They did by attacking those colonies before they headed towards earth. Both times. |
And they inflicted big damage to starfleet both times... So my theory could be true
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lionhead
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 4020
Location: The Delta Quadrant (or not...)
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| Mon May 29, 2006 6:28 pm |
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| Dracojastin wrote: |
Whahaha I really like that example....
But i think i would first get information about the dog.
And then make clear if i would be apropriate to feed it or not.
If i would i would always be careful about it. So i would not go in blind and will not be bitten off guard...
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You have t o feed the dog, its your responsibilty. But becasue o wher biten you have to do it later, after you figured out how to do it better, but still alone. Its a small dog, you can go in again the same way only this time you know it bites, but thats it. Its still the same little doggie, no need for a stun gun or something.
-------signature-------
Never explain comedy or satire or the ironic comment. Those who get it, get it. Those who don't, never will. -Michael Moore
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Dracojastin
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 102
Location: Holodeck 2 NL
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| Mon May 29, 2006 6:44 pm |
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Could I use a phaser then?
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon May 29, 2006 9:00 pm |
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| lionhead wrote: |
But, one thing is different. This time, this time the borg Queen is with them. |
Umm...if you recall in FC, Picard says "You were there all along." Or something to that extent. He clearly stated that she was on the Borg Cube when he was assimilated. That she wanted a human "counterpart." So she was there BOTH times...therefore nothing was different from the two times they tried to assimilate Earth.
| lionhead wrote: |
they sure would, but again: Why send 2 cubes when they can win with 1? 1 cube takes out both the Federation fleet, Klingon fleet, Romlucan fleet, hell take the Dominion and Cardasians fleet as well
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What are you talking about 1 cube could take out all 4 of those races fleets? At the same time? No...MAYBE individually...and if that's what you meant, individual fleets and not combined, then I may agree with you...but your statement sounds like you're saying that the 4 races fleets are combined.
And I agree with Founder in saying send 2 cubes. It's not that hard. If they're going to send one cube at a time...after ten tries, they lost 10 cubes...so which is more efficient? Sending 2 cubes at once and finally taking over humanity? -OR- Sending cube after cube while each cube gets destroyed? Not very efficient b/c they just lost 10 cubes and wasted the "precious" resources that you claim the Borg so boldy don't wish to waste.
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"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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