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Ziona
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 12821
Location: Michigan... for now
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 Thu May 25, 2006 8:47 pm |
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that's funny and yet so wrong... *sighs*
But yes he did violate the school's rules so, yes, he should be punished. People cannot go around breaking rules and getting away with it.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Thu May 25, 2006 9:13 pm |
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| Ziona wrote: | | But yes he did violate the school's rules so, yes, he should be punished. People cannot go around breaking rules and getting away with it. |
Thoreau would disagree. As would people like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks.
Sometimes people have to break rules to get them changed.
However, the basic thing about civil disobedience is that you take the punishment with grace.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Thu May 25, 2006 9:17 pm |
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this is a little differnt then civil rights... this is about someone that showed up to a formal occasion where the males are asked to wear a tux in a dress....
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu May 25, 2006 9:25 pm |
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| teya wrote: | | Ziona wrote: | | But yes he did violate the school's rules so, yes, he should be punished. People cannot go around breaking rules and getting away with it. |
Thoreau would disagree. As would people like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks.
Sometimes people have to break rules to get them changed.
However, the basic thing about civil disobedience is that you take the punishment with grace. |
Not to mention, all those people you listed tried to work with the system before being FORCED into what they did. Not a good comparison.
This boy, if he didn't like the rules, should have petitioned for it to change. Done everything possible within the laws and rules. If he still didn't get it, then he should have done this.
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Ziona
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Aug 2001
Posts: 12821
Location: Michigan... for now
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| Thu May 25, 2006 9:26 pm |
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| teya wrote: |
Thoreau would disagree. As would people like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks.
Sometimes people have to break rules to get them changed.
However, the basic thing about civil disobedience is that you take the punishment with grace. |
We had this argument in my honor Philosophy class at college. Though Thoreau has great ideas on paper, the idea that civil disobedience is a way to change the rules does not follow in general. Yes, change, such as Rosa Park's sitting on the bus and Martin Luther King's civil rights movement are very great things indeed. However, once must look deeper into the meaning of a given situation. Although this boy seems to be fighting for something once must also consider a great deal of other factors. Is this given outburst of civil disobedience really a drive to change something that is not just in the world? Or is it simply to gain attention to oneself in a way as to immortalize him/herself in the eyes of one's peers?
In order to fully understand the Civil Disobedience movement and the reckoning and ability to invoke change through a unified stand against the opposing forces which constantly contain a given society in an irrevocable and unjust way, one must look at the reasoning and purpose behind the justification for the outbreak of such behavior. Likewise, the person responsible for the outbreak of incongruence must also know how and when to behave and what actions are necessary.
I hardly doubt that Thoreau would agree that such an outbreak of movement towards "change" justifies the title of civil disobedience, nor do I believe that this boys actions were meant to change the very direction of history and injustice in this country. In fact, I bargain that this young man's actions were simply a ploy to direct attention upon himself in the most absurd and immature and unnecessary way, simply as a way of immortalizing himself in a way that only the very young and simple-minded would deem necessary.
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Thu May 25, 2006 11:53 pm |
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Would you guys stop trying to compare this topic to world history or civil rights movements? 
The rules of the prom are men must wear a tuxedo and women must wear a dress. It is not the other way around.
This has nothing to do with discrimination.
The school just like any other school in this country have the right to enforce its rules to every student.
If you guys feel that wearing girly dresses is a good thing then do it at home or some halloween party but at the freaking prom because it is simply wrong and flat-out embrassing.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:11 am |
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Exactly. To even THINK about comparing this to the Civil Rights movement, IMO, is just crazy. There's no comparison at all.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:14 am |
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Yeah, really. At my school, no matter what the persons prefernce, if they did something like this, it would have been a stunt for attention, not because its tier belife or what not
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:21 am |
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Actually, I was responding to the assertion that one should *never* break the rules. There are times when you feel a rule so unjust that you can't abide it.
And with all due respect, Ziona, what you deem worthwhile, or I deem worthwhile, or this teenager deems worthwhile are probably three completely different things. That's the nature of individualism.
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:27 am |
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theres nothing unjust about asking a male to go to a formal occasion and abide by the dress code. The same thing would have happend at any of the schools I went to.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:33 am |
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Apparently this teen disagrees. He wanted to dress as he saw fit.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri May 26, 2006 10:19 am |
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We all have wants, but most of us take the rules into consideration before acting upon them.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri May 26, 2006 10:49 am |
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But, see, this gets into a question:
Is it *ever* appropriate to break the rules?
If so, *when*?
I'd hazard a guess that each of us has a line we wouldn't cross--and, granted, for most of us the issue would be more "serious" than the clothes we wear. But for a transgendered individual or a transvestite (and news stories have described this teen as both, so it's unclear exactly what he or she is), the way he dresses goes to the very heart of his identity.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri May 26, 2006 11:15 am |
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How hard would it have been for the boy to simply ask permission to wear the dress? Not very, I'm thinking. He chose not to, and to take matters into his own hands. He didn't even try any other route. And since civil rights leaders were mentioned, they did try other tacts before open defiance.
If he didn't know the rules, or there had been prior discrimination, that would be one thing. But there hadn't been. He was quite open about what he is. He wore womens clothing all year. And from the facts provided, we have to assume that a dress wasn't one of them, since it is only dresses that are prohibited. It's not like the news was surprising to him.
| Quote: | GARY, Ind. � A male student who has worn women's clothes to school all year was turned away from his high school prom because he was wearing a dress.
Kevin Logan, 18, went to the West Side High School prom on Friday in a slinky fuchsia gown and heels. He believes officials discriminated against him by not allowing him inside.
"I have no formal pictures, no memories, nothing. You only have one prom," he said.
Logan, who is gay, received an $85 refund for his prom ticket Tuesday but was not satisfied. He said he is considering filing a complaint with the Indiana Civil Liberties Union.
Sylvester Rowan, assistant to Gary Schools Superintendent Mary Steele, said school policy bans males from wearing dresses. Excluding Logan from prom was based on "the dress code, not the student's homosexuality. That's his personal preference."
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri May 26, 2006 11:27 am |
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Back in 8th grade in 1969, girls weren't allowed to wear pants to school. A group of us wore slacks in violation of the dress code. We paid the price with a day's suspension and a month's detention. But it brought the issue to the forefront, and the dress code was changed. No matter how many times we asked before that, the response had been "Those are the rules. Follow them."
We chose not to, took the punishment, publicized the issue within our community, and effected change. That it's now common for women to wear slacks is a direct result of those in past generations who refused to accept convention.
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Lord Borg
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Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Fri May 26, 2006 11:55 am |
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Again, it's clear he didn't ask, and there's a world of differnce between pants, and a dress.
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:10 pm |
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How is it clear that he didn't ask? All we know is that they didn't report it.
And as for a world of difference between pants on a girl and a dress on a guy... that's just societal conventions. Believe me, back in 1969, you'd have thought 3 8th grade girls wearing slacks to school would cause the end of civilization as we know it, given the horror expressed by the principal, teachers and school board.
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Valathous
The Canadian, eh
Joined: 31 Aug 2002
Posts: 19074
Location: Centre Bell
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:18 pm |
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lol, funny.
Personally, if I was the gate guard, I would have let him in anyways. Wow! He wore a dress! Who cares? If the guy wants to wear a dress that's his business. I would have given him a pat on the back and said "Good luck, buddy" because he would probably have been bugged, but I doubt he would have cared...
It is kind of sad, though. You only do get one prom and he missed his. He should have expected that would have happened but it's still kind of sad.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:30 pm |
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I don't read where anyone freaked out because he wore a dress. All I see is that they reprimanded him for breaking existing rules.
Perhaps that rule is outdated, but he didn't go about changing it correctly. No one forbad him wearing female clothing.
And I'd be rather surprised if your first step as an eighth grader was to just blatantly disobey rules, and the school changed them so you'd get your way.
The fact that he wore a dress and that it was against the rules for males to wear a dress can be mutually exclusive from his gender preference, w/e.
We can all safely assume that the rule was made to stop pranks, etc... No one is saying there isn't room for change in today's society, but they are saying there is a proper way to do things.
(BTW, you can google other articles on this, never once is his asking mentioned, which would be a vital piece of information. For both him, and the school board)
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teya
Commander
Joined: 02 Feb 2005
Posts: 423
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| Fri May 26, 2006 12:43 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | And I'd be rather surprised if your first step as an eighth grader was to just blatantly disobey rules, and the school changed them so you'd get your way.
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No, you're right there. It took us about a month before we challenged the rules.
However, my very first step as a kindergartener was to quietly refrain from saying the Lord's Prayer. Also an act of civil disobedience--but obviously one of a more serious nature. I was punished for that as well, yet the rules did change as a result.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat May 27, 2006 12:43 am |
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I don't see what should be so wrong with it besides it is not the norm and that should be no reasons for the schools actions. It's obvious that that school discourage that type of dress for males and wanted to make an example out of him by denying him entry, while sending a message out to everyone that they don't tolerate that dress for males, for whatever reason.
It's worring that a discriminating rule would even exist in the first place. I also don't understand why people would be bent out of shape if a male turned up in a dress. I personally wouldn't give a rats as long as it didn't effect me. Such a rule's purpose is only put in place to protect fragile mentality of some students that can't handle diversity.
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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Sat May 27, 2006 10:26 am |
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Was the boy wrong? Certainly.
Is the rule wrong? Certainly.
So it's a both-both scenario here. If he wants to wear a dress, he should have the right to wear a dress without being punished for it. However, in this case, he was out of line because he should have been aware of that school policy.
The policy itself is discriminatory, of course. I myself am unfamiliar with whatever social changes occurred which caused women to wear skirts/dresses but men were not allowed to, but I find it rather silly. Again, it is an example of how most human beings are superficial enough to judge someone on how they look rather than how they act. Appearance should be a secondary characteristic--as should gender.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Sat May 27, 2006 6:33 pm |
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No one else has mentioned this, but...
I bet he looked really nice in his dress.
And as long as it wasn't sexually revealing or slutty in any way, "let the baby have his bottle".
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