Holograms deserve equal rights....or do they?

[Founder]

I was recently reminded of the episode "Author, Author", season 7. The episode pretty much was a rehash the TNG episode "The Measure of a Man". Sorry VOY fans, but its true . Anyways, the premise was pretty much about if the EMH was a sentient being and deserved equal rights. Of course, the EMH is a hologram. A photonic being made up of force fields and light. For years, all of us have watched holograms on TNG and DS9 and cared virtually nothing for them. Finally, we get The Doctor on STV and see that he isn't just another hologram. The end of the episode makes a small hint that other holograms may one day be affected by this. The issue is not resolved by the end of the episode and left in the air.

My question is this: Do you all think that holograms, not just EMHs, deserve equal rights to humans/aliens?

Now, I know most people are going to rush forward and say yes, thanks to hindsight, but lets be truthful here. Put yourself in the perspective of a common person in that era. Unless you served onboard the USS Voyager, it is doubtful you would care. Ask yourself this, before VOY, did you used to get upset when holographic characters were killed on TNG and DS9? Did you wish they weren't shut off so coldly by the other crews?

Also, before you think that the TNG and DS9 crew would support it, remember they didn't seem too big on holograms.

"I promised myself I would never use one of these, computer activate emergency medical hologram."-Crusher, Star Trek: First Contact.

Its obvious she didn't think too highly of them. I mean, she activated it so the Borg would tear it apart rather than the crew. There were numerous episode of VOY that slightly touched on this matter as well.

Don't think of this as does the EMH deserve rights, but do ALL holograms deserve rights? Only the EMH can really leave sickbay. Although it seems ships are beginning to be outfitted with holographic generators that allow them to wal around the ship, but still they would be confined to the ship.

Now you might be asking "We could answer this question if you told us what equal rights entails for them..."

Well if they had equal rights, then upon their creation(activation) they would not have to do what you say. You could no longer kill them for personal amusement or to further a holographic story. You could no longer have adult relations with them for personal pleasure. You would have to allow them to leave if they wished it. In other words, the holodeck would no longer be a source for fun unless the holograms were told ahead of time and they allowed it. Think about this. Holograms would simply be made to live. To go out and be able to live their lives. They couldn't be forced to scrub dilithium mines anymore. They would simply be taking up room, as mean as that sounds. To be honest, many are simply made to further a story in the holodeck, nothing more. They barely have enough sentience beyond that. Not to mention, you have to understand that if you make a 10th century hologram and free him, he or she will simply think that you are some evil pagan and this twisted future where women have rights and technology is rampant is hell or something. Do we really want that running around the streets? Remember, not ALL the holograms are like the Doctor. I can see and understand why people wouldn't want to make them equal. On the other hand...

There was another VOY episode that struck a cord with holograms. "Flesh and Blood" was an episode about holograms rising up against their masters and fleeing. They wanted to land on a planet and make a home for themselves. These holograms were used simply for target practice by the Hirogen. They were given sentience and awareness to be become better "prey", but all it did was simply made them feel the terror. Which leads to another point. All the holograms that are killed on TNG and DS9 are killed but not on the same level. This shows they are not born with sentience, but a mild awareness. The sentience literally needs to be activated. All this simply shows is that they have the capability to become sentient, they don't start out that way. Even the Doctor grew over time and became more. Later on, in the same episode, the holographic crew try to liberate other holograms, killing their masters. They find out the holograms they liberated aren't sentient at all and can only mine. Which again shows there are variations to them. Some are sentient, others are not. So do they ALL deserve equal rights?

There is a DS9 character, Vic Fontaine, who was a hologram and knew about it. He was obviously programmed that way. Vic was clearly sentient and thanks to Nog, allowed to actually "live". They can become equals and its obvious that if given time, they all grow.

I can see both arguments to be honest. To some people, Humanity itself has a creator. He or She or whatever made us to be sentient while other animals are not. If we gave holograms rights because they could grow, should we do the same for animals such as dolphins, dogs, and apes? Those animals have shown mild signs of sentience. I always thought this was a good philosophical question. I see a lot of merit to be honest in the "they dont deserve rights" side, but I find it funny. The UFP is an insitution based off exploration and unity. They've discovered many species of varying kinds. You would think they wouldn't be so picky on who to assign sentience to. They treated Data and the Doctor like garbage. Its a shame. Anywho...imagine this was a bill passing through congress. What side would you take?

[Dracojastin]

Well i don't think all holograms (if they would come to excist) could have equal rights.
I mean holograms programmed for normal holodeck use wont need those rights.... But on the other hand... The EMH on voyager is really seflaware and so is the hologram girl at Jupiter station (forgot her name)...
Those function like other species. Ok i know they are programmed and stuff but i mean whats the differents with us. They can be reprogrammed - we can be brainwashed.
I think the main difference is that they Don't die except when deleted, so they live forever. And they can obtain information in a far superior way than us. So i'd say Holograms will be a superior beeing to men withing the limits of its program. But if you would take those limits away they will be far superior than us
Well to conclude a point. Sentient holograms who "live" and "work" like humanoids do should have those rights, because they are just as us.


Well dunno if this is a hoax... but we are getting there

http://www.io2technology.com/technology/images

[lionhead]

I didn't read your post Founder(a bit long and i don't feel like that right now, maybe later)

But my opinion is that a Hologram isn't alive so it should have equal rights as a living lifeform.

not even the Doctor on Voyager. It is and always will be a machine.

[Founder]

Thanks for the responses. I'm also glad you're both being truthful. I was hoping for a good debate from both sides and thought that everyone would simply post they wanted rights for them simply cause they liked the EMH.

I find your viewpoint about The Doctor not being allowed to have rights either rather interesting. Hes a machine and always will be one? Didn't he clearly grow beyond that lionhead?

Cool link Dracojastin. It looks like holograms are right around the corner...

[La Forge]

It all depends on the hologram. Holograms like the Doctor and Vic Fontaine, those who know of what they are and ACT like sentient beings (civilized, etc.) should be allowed sentience. If it is a primal Klingon hologram...eh...I don't think so.

Although, Holodecks were made to entertain people. If they ceased to serve that purpose, seeing as the Holograms had RIGHTS and the ability to DENY access or whatever...I don't think that is right. I mean, life on a starship would be hard, and without a Holodeck with ALL of its features, they wouldn't be the same. Plus...Quark would lose a lot of dough!

Oddly enough, I am watching a Hologram episode right now. "Ship in a Bottle" a TNG episode about the holographic Professor Moriarty. Good ep.

One more thing. A good example of a hologram episode is the DS9 episode "Shadowplay" about a holographic village.

[Dracojastin]

[Leo Wyatt]

I can see both sides to it so I can really do a debate on it. If I was in the mood. But, I love your point though Founder.

[Lord Borg]

It being a machine is kind of a poor reason to say no, Look at Data, one could call him a machine, yet HE has (Well, had) Equal rights, was considared sentient etc...

As for the holograms? No, not all of them, because like Founder said then any 'ol hologram made would then be like "Oh Hi, I was bored and made you wanna go to the Academy and become an officer?" It's simple, if they are "sentient" (And I don't mean told what they are, they KNOW it.) then yes, they should. Look at the EMH, he CLEARLY is sentient, he is even close friends with several 'biologicals'. Vic, he is sentient (Yeah. programed, but STILL) and the professor guy La Forge mentioned.

In short, Holograms like the EMH yes, a hologram that's a part of a holonovle or traning similations or what not, No. That'd be like making a tricorder think and making that equal.

[Voyager2004]

I haven't read anybody's posts because my time is limited...but if Data got equal rights, then so should the Doctor...that is if you want to get technical. If you give Data rights but not the Doctor (or holograms in general), then that's just retarded...

So if one gets it, then the other gets it. And if they decide not to give it to the Doctor (or Holograms) then they should revoke the equality that was given to Data. But that's just how I see it.

But now personally, I don't believe that Holograms have rights and they don't "deserve" them. They deserve nothing. WE (the Federation and such) developed them for OUR purposes. Nothing more. We tell them how limited they are allowed to be. Now the Doctor is a special case, JUST LIKE DATA, where he may be granted equlal rights because he EXCEEDED the sum of his program. So that means if he (Or anybody else) doesn't interfere with other holograms and they then exceed their programming, then they are kinda the same...But NOT if the Doctor (or anybody else) goes on to interfere and SHOW them RIGHTS that they don't have...

Am I making sense? LOL...

[Founder]

[Voyager2004]

[Founder]

Yes, but as I said in my opening post, the EMH is different from other holograms. Just because the EMH is sentient, doesn't mean the others are. Like La Forge pointed out, if there was a warrior Klingon in a training program and all he knows is how to fight, why would you give him rights? Why would you allow him out of the holodeck jsut so he could try and kill people?

[Lord Borg]

You wouldnt, because that Klingon is doing what the computer told it to do, nothing more, with Holograms like the EMH, thier "brain" makes them act

[Voyager2004]

With both of you, I do very much agree. That's why I said that if a Hologram on its own were to discover its true state and such then you COULD give it rights...that or simply rewrite it back to normal...Haha...I forgot to mention that in my original post.

[Lord Borg]

Well in that case, sure, then give it the rights

[lionhead]

[Dracojastin]

^ Ok so you are saying that the reason for creation has everything to do with it. Dont want to go to far with saying this... but havent we had slaves ( they wer "grown" to obey) And even now suppressed muslim woman have to obey everything a man says to her.... So i think your point of view is not correct

[Voyager2004]

there's a difference between "slaves" and machines.

Machines we CREATED should obey. Slavery isn't right, nor was it years ago...but it happened, and different forms of it still happen, (as you said about suppressed muslim women). But having a machine do what WE tell it isn't "slavery." It was created for a sole purpose.

Now I stick by give the Doctor rights...just for the mere fact that he DID go beyond his programming...but as for your TYPICAL hologram I have to say no until it also grows beyond its program. But at which point it's unlikely if it has limited subroutines.

[Dracojastin]

Well at the slave part i don't agree with you... For generations long were they slaves of their owner. So if the slaves mate the reproduce new slaves. I may sound kinde harsh, but that is how it went. I agree dough for what you said about letting machines do work for is isn't slavery.

But also as the EMH did go beyond it's programming, so did the slaves. And now they have rights. Well that sounds kinda harsh to. But then again.. that's how it went.

They kinda went beyond there programming...

Well at least this is my perspective of how things went

[Lord Borg]

Data was "programed" to expand beyond his programing, he still got equal rights.

Yes, the EMH was, but now he has "free will" so to speak, Janeway allows him to voice his opinion (Unless it goes againts hers of course )

[Valathous]

This is a touchy issue, really. As has been said before, how do you give the primative ones the same rights as the more advanced ones? You'd have to, you can't discriminate on people for being disabled or less intelligent, so giving them equal rights that would kick in aswell.

Instances like the Doctor and Data make you want to jump up and say "Yes! Yes! Do it!" but really, how convenient would it be for us? For them to have equal rights and the rights of mobility we would have to place holographic projectors quite literally everywhere, even in the depths of the Amazon jungle or other planets. Now, don't give me this "just give them a holo-emitter" BS because as is known to most, that was futuristic technology and is one of a kind. Therefore that idea is shot down.

What about if one was angered enough to kill, or there was a glitch in its ethical subroutines, or just ended up like the ones in "Flesh and Blood". Basically, there'd be no way of catching him. Holograms would leave no trace of evidence behind them. No fabric, no strands of hair, no fingerprints, no footsteps... Not to mention if some hostile alien race... maybe the Founders turn on Odo and want revenge? What if they got a hold on the computer that stores all of these holograms? Because I'm sure all of the ones that wanted to stay on Earth would be placed into computers specially run for the hologram population. Oh, there's another issue... Their programs need to be kept in computers, unless like the Doctor they have the one of a kind holographic emitter... So, how would they travel from planet to planet? It'd be pretty difficult, needing to be transferred from computer to computer all the time... Who knows what could happen from that... Plus they would complain that they always need to be shut off for such a thing, yadda yadda...

It just wouldn't work.

[lionhead]

[John Connor]

I think they should have equal rights. Cause, if they create something so they should be able to have same as humans.

[Dracojastin]

[lionhead]