Bush and the Government Sell US Out

Founder · **Tue May 09, 2006 6:17 pm**

I don't think the government should be selling off tips to other governments, but I hate the minutmen with a passion. So I don't mind them getting screwed over. I am surprised that the government would do this though.

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

I am not for vigilante action against illegals. If an American crossed illegally into another country, I would want them to be treated with respect and according to the law...not taken into the hands of some random citizen who decides to do whatever he pleases and ignore the law.

Republican_Man · **Tue May 09, 2006 6:24 pm**

Tell me: Why do you hate people who are simply sitting in lawn chairs with binoculars, trying to let the Border Patrol know when an illegal is in sight? That's all they're doing.
As a matter of fact, in spirit, I am one of them. Do you hate me, too?
And you know what? It's rather disturbing to me that you support people protesting to give illegal aliens rights that they don't deserve, but yet you hate people who disagree with you, who are protesting the lack of border security, even if they are American citizens that could be harmed because of this--because of a foreign nation being given information on their location. They are American citizens, and just because you disagree with what they're doing it's alright for the US to give away information on their whereabouts to a foreign nation? I'm sorry, but that's dispicable.
I'd say you have a STAUNCH double standard here. If you should be disliking the efforts of any protestors, it should be those from last week, not these people who are protesting the lack of border security. You're fine with kids skipping school to fight for illegal immigrant rights, yet you're not fine with people protesting the lack of American security at our southern border? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Republican_Man · **Tue May 09, 2006 6:27 pm**

Founder · **Tue May 09, 2006 6:32 pm**

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

Republican_Man · **Tue May 09, 2006 6:38 pm**

That response wasn't to you, Puck, but to Founder.

And I've already told you about how the Minutemen are NOT vigilantes, in my following post, but rather protestors who alert the Border Patrol when they see an illegal. That means that they are NOT taking action into their own hands by arresting them.
I will concede, however, that SOME of the volunteers are more than likely racist--but not the founders of the organization. But of course that's ALWAYS going to happen.
And there are probably a few secs along different portions of the border that are not part of the main group of Minutemen that may do more action against the illegals than their policy states.
However, this does not change the fact that the policy is of protesting and not of harm, of security and not of vigilantiism. It does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of Minutemen are doing this in order to protect their country, by protesting, in an attempt to make our country secure, out of a sense of civic duty. It also does not change the fact that the VAST majority of minutemen actions are NOT against the law or vilinatiism, but they are of peaceful protests.
There is a fringe in this group, sure. But isn't there a fringe in every group? Yes. But this group, as a whole, is NOT on the fringe, but near the mainstream of America.

Founder · **Tue May 09, 2006 6:42 pm**

LightningBoy · **Tue May 09, 2006 10:18 pm**

So. Guys go out, pick up illegals, and turn them into authorities.

This isn't vigilantism. They aren't administring their own punishment, therefore it's perfectly legal.

webtaz99 · **Thu May 11, 2006 8:25 am**

Our (the US) government has become "of big business, by big business, and for big business". The whole outsourcing and immigration issues illustrate this beyond dis-belief.

And while I applaud Bush's desire to wipe out terrorism, I have never seen a President more obviously in the pocket of big business.

As workers we have become unwanted by-products of big business, while as consumers we have become mindless slaves.

Republican_Man · **Thu May 11, 2006 6:26 pm**

Actually, you're a bit mistaken on their reasons. For the Republicans it's big business, but for the Democrats it's all about the votes.
And Founder, I love how I can't generalize and everything with regards to the protests FOR illegal immgrants (and, from my perspective, illegal immigration) and yet you can when it comes to an organization that you disagree with--an organization of protestors that is against illegal immigration, for the safety of the American people, for the law, and for greater border security protocols. And not only that, but thanks for declaring that I support a KKK-wannabe organization, which is far from the truth--both about what I support and what the organization is.

I must say, though, that this story may be innacurate. It may have been one or two instances reported to the Mexican government in which small amounts of Minutemen were violating their standard protocols--but few groups, and that's a might be.

Founder · **Thu May 11, 2006 7:24 pm**

Republican_Man · **Thu May 11, 2006 10:05 pm**

Okay, maybe generalizing isn't the right word (at least from that post), and I was incorrect in using that particular word with regard to that post, but what you did is much like what I did with those people protesting FOR illegal activity, and was criticized by you for doing.
I swatted around the idea that a growing minority of Latinos protesting were incredibly radical, intent on �retaking America� for Mexico, and discussed the fact that the majority of the protestors on that day were supporting illegal immigration in the sense that they were protesting for lack of security on the border (being against virtually any serious border security and enforcement measure) and/or supporting legalization for all people here illegally. There is limpid evidence to back that up too.
You, however, made the accusation that the vast majority of protestors here--as is evident in �I'm not saying ALL of them are, I'm sure there are good ones.� (should we interject �some� into there?)--are �KKK wannabes,� when all your �evidence� is that the majority of them are white, which is, with all due respect, bogus and rather sardonic, not to mention baseless. It�s basically saying that the group is a KKK-wannabe group with a few people with good intentions who do not coordinate with that majority, but most are racist, anti-immigrant people who hate Mexicans. Don�t you see how wrong that is, how maybe it�s not generalizing, but it�s accusing a heck of a lot of people of blatantly being racist, when you have no evidence to back it up, and when it�s just not true?
Also, I find it funny that you like O�Reilly and yet you worry about where I get my information from, when he�s one of the key providers of that information. I also get it from Sean Hannity, who toured the border with the Minutemen. Is he a racist? No; he�s limpid in that regard--you can clearly tell he�s not.
Does he believe we should do this out of malcontent? No. Is he an honest man? Yes. Does he want border security? Yes. So why wouldn�t he have said something about the racist intentions of the Minutemen, if that were the case? That�s beyond me. Guess he must be racist, or incredibly misled by most of the protestors along the border.

Don�t forget the rest of the equation, Founder. Why not do everything available to solve for X? This involves Y, which is an incredibly large variable.
What I mean by this is, why do you ignore the fact that millions of people are pouring into this country illegally on a consistent basis? Why do you ignore the fact that this is a national security concern, as evident with the MS-13 criminal syndicate freely flowing from the US to Mexico, terrorizing people along the way, and all the drug organizations crossing over, as well as the threat of terrorism?
Oh, you�re going to say you don�t--and I know you don�t, when it comes to border security--but when it involves the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps, you seem to do so.
Why is it so hard to believe that a group of majority whites could actually be on our southern border protesting the lack of security--something you seem to agree with!

What a thought! A group of people who coincidentally happen to be majority white (which there are a number of reasons for, and not just racism) actually doing this to protect their country not by rounding up and deporting every single illegal here, but by preventing more from coming in--by securing our border! If you�re a believer in securing our border, yet not sending all illegals out, you should be praising the Minutemen, because that is all they�re doing--fighting for border security. If you�re a believer in the freedom of speech when it comes to a good cause--to the cause of defense, when you apparently AGREE with their call to better defend our border--then you shouldn�t be hating this group, but you should be supporting it. You shouldn�t find the fact that their lives may have been put in danger �funny� and all those things you say, when their intentions are, down at their heart and core, good.
You can cry about how I�m taking your comments out of context now, but I know I�m not, and I�m sure you do too. I�m putting them entirely within the proper context in my mind as I�m making this post right now.

Have you heard Chris Simcox or the other founder of the Minutemen? Are the founders of that organization racist? No, I don�t think so. I honestly do believe that they are trying to improve things for the good of America, in the absence of racism. They�re no more racist than me, or even you.

It�s not hard to put two and two together, you�re right. But why does that �two and two� have to be white and racist? Why? That�s something I expect Jessie Jackson to say, not you. You have no evidence to back up this claim (unlike I would for, say, the NAACP) in the first place anyways.
White organization protesting illegal immigration from Mexico? They have to be mostly racist, just as an organization of white people supporting the halting of the reverse discrimination affirmative action programs must consist of a majority of racist people. There�s no way that the majority of either group could be standing on principle. It HAS to be racism. Most of them HAVE to be racist. Affirmative action helps those of minority races to get ahead. Clearly anyone who opposes it is racist, and almost everyone within an anti-affirmative action organization is racist as well.
Just the same, a Christian organization is opposing gay marriage and civil unions, as well as gay adoption? Ope, they must be homophobic too, because anyone who actively campaigns against these things has to be a homophobe! They couldn�t actually be standing on the principal that such things are better for children or morally right. There�s no way.
I mean, it�s not hard to put two and two together, right? You�re white and in an organization protesting illegal immigration, you�re most likely racist. You�re white and in an organization opposing affirmative action, you�re most likely racist. You�re Christian and in an organization opposing the above things, you�re most likely a racist. After all, again, it�s not hard to put two and two together, am I right?
I think my point there is clear.
I surely am not one who enjoys watching anyone play the race card. I think it�s detrimental to the advancements and improvements made by minorities--people of color--throughout this country.
In all honesty, and with all due respect, you, like Jessie Jackson and so many other African Americans, are only shining a negative light upon yourself by playing it. Simply because you, yourself, are a member of a minority does not give you the right to flat-out play the race card and judge that most members of a vast organization are racist. You have that luxury, but it doesn't make it right. I know you're going to harp on me for this paragraph, but that's how it's really coming off, as much as I hate to say it, by you acting the way you are.

Next you�re going to label Tom Tancredo, my Congressman whom I like, have met, and would vote for a million times over given the opportunity, as a racist, and the day you do that is the day I consider removing myself from all of the RPGs you�re running.
Harsh? Maybe so. But why would I contemplate such an action? Because I know he�s not a racist, and to call someone I am personally acquainted with a racist when I know he�s not is just something I don�t take to lightly.
The point is that Tancredo was involved in the production of that House bill that passed (which I did oppose, on a few grounds, and you opposed) and is, and has been, one of the most active politicians in Washington fighting for massive illegal immigration and border security reform. He�s been with the Minutemen on the border and agrees with what they are saying and doing, as do I.
Yet, let me reiterate, he is not a racist. I happen to agree with him, for the most part, on this critical issue, and if he�s a racist, I�m a racist right with him. I sure do hope he wins reelection in November, and am glad that he represents my district. I know my parents will be voting for him, and I would if I could.
Oh, and btw? When it comes to illegal immigration, IF we secure our borders, he�s right with me, and not only me, but with you, as he has specifically stated. And yet he gets bashed for his wish to secure our borders. Why? Because he�s a white man on an agenda to stop illegal immigrants, the majority of which derive from Mexico. He is therefore racist. You wouldn�t believe the hate mail he gets. It�s absolutely despicable.
And that, my friend, is exactly what you are, for all intents and purposes, doing to the Minutemen.
And yet, what I like him for more than anything, is he continues to stay the course, despite that harsh criticism, which is what makes him my favorite politician, second of the last fifty years only to Reagan, and succeeded most likely by Bush.

At any rate, I was considering starting a youth anti-illegal immigration organization a while back. If I had started that, or if I end up starting it, and we did campaigns all across my state and whatnot, would that make me racist? My guess is that your answer would be no. So why does that need to be the case for the Minutemen founders? Clearly they have to be racist, don�t they? They started the organization that you �hate with a passion.� (Btw, when you said �I hate the Minutemen with a passion,� wasn�t that generalization? IMO, that�s like when I wrongfully said that I thought I was becoming racist because of a minority in this country, even if it is on a smaller scale.)

I would also like to close by stating that if I could, I would go right on down to the border right now and do exactly what the Minutemen are doing. Your arguments have only made me have that thought occur to me even more.
I would be proud to carry out my civil duty to protect this country in a non-intrusive and entirely legal way by helping them in their [protest] effort.
If I did, would you stand by your statement �I hate the Minutemen with a passion,� which is all-inclusive and, being all inclusive, would therefore include me? For that matter, would you retract it now, or do you still hate them all, which takes an entire group of many concerned Americans and declares hatred towards them, even if there are some �good ones� within the organization?

EDIT: This just in. The Minutemen are working to get more black people to join them. Racist? If they're racist, then why are they trying to get minorities to join on?

Puck · The Texan Joined: 05 Jan 2004 Posts: 5596

Founder · **Fri May 12, 2006 5:58 pm**

Republican_Man · **Fri May 12, 2006 6:30 pm**

Right now. Give me FIVE SOLID examples--with evidence--of hate crimes committed by them. If you can do that, give me TEN, because I haven't seen any. And just because SOME groups might commit it does NOT mean that most are like that. You're making such a broad judgment that it's rather harsh and wrong. Such negativity doesn't do you well.
Then, explain to us how these few instances of hate crimes instantly makes most of the organization racist, or "KKK wannabes," as you put it.

Founder · **Fri May 12, 2006 6:59 pm**

If I can prove that I have 5, then you want 10? If I prove that will you ask for a 100? If I have that will you ask for so much that it isn't possible to prove? Nice try, but it won't happen. You're trying to keep it going until I can't give enough numbers and then claim "Ha! I win!" Even ONE instance of it is wrong.

Not to mention, I already said time and time again, that not all of them are bad. You're sticking with the first part of my argument and holding onto that for dear life. I already said that some were good and probably really only care about Hispanics, just that they want to protect the border. Again, I still don't agree with it because they shouldn't take the law into their own hands. Not to mention, this article PROVES that they have neo-nazis within their own ranks.

Republican_Man · **Fri May 12, 2006 7:40 pm**

Doesn't "more than half" imply the majority? After all, the 3rd definition of Majority, according to Webster's dictionary, is, "a number greater than half of a total," so, uh, yeah...

And secondly, I'm not disputing that there are racists or Nazis in the organization. It's rather difficult to find an organization fighting for something like the Minutemen are fighting for that doesn't have racist or neo-Nazi people in it. But that doesn't mean that the majority, or even 50% of them, or the organization itself, are racist.
I already sent you to these two links via IM, but here's a blog I found by somebody who appears to be opposed to the Minutemen, yet is quite fair to them. It talks about Hispanic Minutemen, including the man who took over for James Gilchrist when he began his bid for Representative of California as second-in-command, Al Garza. It shows, I think, just how the Minutemen aren't, overall, racist and are more accepting than you have been portraying.
http://acapitolblog.blogspot.com/2005/09/are-you-looking-for-me-mr-minuteman.html
http://acapitolblog.blogspot.com/2006/01/texas-minuteman-leader-to-take-reigns.html

The author represents Austin, Texas, btw, which is well known for being quite a liberal area, which rather implies that he would take the more liberal stance on this issue.

Again, I aknowledge that there are bad apples within the Minutemen ranks; but I am also convinced that the groups you hear about committing hate crimes are splinter groups of the Minutmen that consist primarily of racists and bigots, yet are not within the ranks of the average Minuteman, if you catch my meaning.
Yes, though, I do aknowledge that there are racists within the average ranks of the Minutemen as well, as will always happen. But does that mean that even 50% of the members are racist, or that the organization is racist at its core? No, it does not. It just means that there are some bad apples that they haven't filtered out, or bad apples/more exteremists that have splintered away from the main group yet are still affiliated with them.
I also submit to you that they have not done a sufficient job of distancing themselves from these racist groups that support them (as you would expect, with any racist group throwing their support for organizations that may help their cause, as twisted as their main motives may be), or of pushing forth the fact that there are Hispanics within the ranks of the Minutemen, though the blog does state reasons for it, straight from Garza's mouth.
But just because they haven't done as good of a job with that as they could doesn't mean that even 40% of them are racist.
I happen to believe that the vast majority are like me--concerned Americans who want to secure our border.
As Rep. Aaron Pena, author of the blog, summarizes, "I suggested that his group was purely symbolic. Here he admitted that this was true and that all the Minutemen groups are frustrated with the Bush administration's attitude towards growing illegal Mexican immigration and that they were a reaction to that fact. They obviously did not have much hope with leaders in the Democratic Party."
There you have it. It's symbolic more than anything. That's the point, too. They're out there protesting, not arresting illegals. They're out there giving the border patrol heads-up about illegals, not, for the most part, taking matters into their own hands.
Some splinter groups, as that second blog discusses, may be doing so, I suppose, but they're not of the mainstream Minutemen.

A description of the Minutemen:

Founder · **Fri May 12, 2006 8:48 pm**

Republican_Man · **Fri May 12, 2006 9:13 pm**

First of all, that second quote is from a man of the American Immigration Control Foundation, not the Minutemen. I'm not even going to address that, because it's not the topic at hand, though I will say that the crowd cheering at his statements was only roughly 24 people. That's not that much money.

Second of all, maybe some of them said stuff like that, without my knowing, with regards to the first quote from the article, but that's still not their reason for protesting, and not the feeling of most of them. Plus, the article, written up by an element of the liberal media (Reuters), doesn't even tell us what members, or how many, made those statements. I disagree with them that the Mexicans are the plague, but that, again, isn't the policy of the Minutemen--even if a key leader said that it wouldn't be policy--as their stated mission is to bring greater attention to the border for border security. Their stated organizational mission is not, however, to deport illegals. That is not their mission, nor is it their reason for protesting down at the border.

I will admit, though, that the way these protests of the Minutemen went didn't really help their cause, especially considering the way the liberal media takes and interprets stories, and presents them to us. Once again they are hurting their cause by saying things that don't shine good lights on them. I sure as heck wouldn't go about this in the way they are.

I would really like for Reuters to present us with a provided explanation, however, for Gilchrist's comment, "They are not assembling to protect their rights. They are assembling to strip us of our rights." But of course I wouldn't expect it from them. They are one of the media outlets that is clearly liberal. I want the full story, not a jaded one. That article says NOTHING good about the Minutemen. Shows just how biased they are, cherry picking what to put in it, no?