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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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 Tue May 02, 2006 4:55 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: |
I agree with you and webtaz. In high school we never had religious classes either, well except for the whachos that would hold elective christian classes at lunch time 
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That's what I mean. What purpose did it serve to belittle those people who chose to take part of that class, simply because it wasn't something you were interested in? |
But this bunch were whachos, putting on their inprint of christianity is cool to everyone, etc. Not saying all christians are whachos, I have christian friends and their beliefs are not my concern, as they don't concern others about their beliefs. But these teachers were whachos. You would need to be there to see it.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue May 02, 2006 4:59 am |
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| Starbuck wrote: | | magenta wrote: | Theresa the bible is a 'book' that is about religion.I am not religous and do not want my kids taught it!Simple as that!Why do you wish it taught in a non religous school when it has no academic reason to be taught! thats why there are religous and non religous schools!
I will answer any question asked me by my kids about what religion is.It is my right to do that not the government forcing it on kids in public schools!
YES it is being forced even if it is an optional class or not!Tax payers are being forced to fund something that they should not have to!
If it happens in OZ,I personally would fight my taxes funding it to the end! |
Yes the bible is a book. A book about Religion. And there is EVERY reason for it to be taught as an ELECTIVE in schools. Its called enlightenment and perhaps if more people were enlightened about other peoples ways, there would be fewer problems. And NOTHING is being forced on them if the class is an elective, as for your tax dollars..... they have an "elective fund" its just a ton of money they throw in for elective classes. Personally I would rather see my money going towards a class rather than a new windscreen on the tennis courts or new turf on the football field. |
I heard sex ed in your country has almost become non-existant. If there is surplus money by peoples assumptions, why not improve sex education in schools? That seems a lot more important to me, helping prevent 16yo mothers & fathers.
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Tue May 02, 2006 2:53 pm |
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| magenta wrote: | If there is a 'tonne' of money put up for elective classes,it should be used to fund tuition for the kids that cant afford it and need extra help!
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There's a state fund for that too 
and prankishsmart..... sex ed is required all 4 years in my state so I don't know where people are comming off saying its nonexistant..... and the nurses office has a surplus of condoms..... and EVERY SINGLE CONCERT I HAVE EVER BEEN TO has give you a handful of condoms at the door. Its not that our sex ed is nonexistant its that our attendance polocies suck.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 02, 2006 6:34 pm |
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Wow. Oh...my...God. Not only are you required to have sex ed all four years, but condoms are mass-distributed at your school? WHAT!?
Talk about encouragement of sex
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Tue May 02, 2006 6:36 pm |
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I wouldnt call it "encouragement" but rather a more of a "If you must, do it saftly"
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 02, 2006 6:52 pm |
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Having it all around? No, that's encouragement. Most definitely.
I mean, in Health we learned about contraception, but the main focus was abstinence. That was wise. Just as well, we don't have stations where you can get condoms at school. That's just sick and amounts to encouragement.
I mean, in the mind of a teenager, honestly, can you say that being offerred a condom by an adult on a consistent basis wouldn't seem to you as saying, "It's alright if you have sex. As a matter of fact, DO IT, 'cause we have condoms here for you!"
Well, that's my impression, anyways, and I'm a teenager in high school.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Starbuck
faster...
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 8715
Location: between chaos and melody
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| Tue May 02, 2006 7:03 pm |
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Actually, almost no one ever goes to the nurse to get them. If the nurse feels that a young girl is sexually active, she may ask about it.... ask if she's having safe sex etc.... if she says no she gives her A condom.
and the main focus of our sex ed class IS abstinance..... its just drilled into our brain over a period of four years.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Tue May 02, 2006 7:33 pm |
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Well, fact is like it or not, a lot of high schoolers have sex. Having condomns around isn't such a bad idea.
But...people, I believe this is a topic about Bible class, not sex ed.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 02, 2006 7:35 pm |
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| magenta wrote: | | Theresa the bible is a 'book' that is about religion.I am not religous and do not want my kids taught it!Simple as that! |
So in other words, you want to indoctrinate them with your beliefs and yours alone?
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:28 pm |
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| Founder wrote: |
So in other words, you want to indoctrinate them with your beliefs and yours alone? |
Not wanting to call the kettle black, but isn't that what a bible class in a public school would do?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:30 pm |
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So teaching people about the Bible is now indoctrination? Hmm, here I was thinking that knowledge of religion might make people a little more cultured and smarter. We wouldn't want that though...
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:34 pm |
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If it's an elective; what's the matter? 85% of America claim to be Christian. It's the majority of the population, and the faith of the majority of our Founding Fathers. Big deal if it's an elective and that's the case.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:38 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | So teaching people about the Bible is now indoctrination? Hmm, here I was thinking that knowledge of religion might make people a little more cultured and smarter. We wouldn't want that though... |
If you want to teach religion, that is one thing. Teach all religions and make the masses a bit more intellegent. Maybe it'll teach people that not all muslims as terrorists then, or that there are other religions out there besides the one that is continuously shoved down the throats of non-christian people on a daily basis.
This is about the teaching of a book that is disputed among theologists and historians about being inaccurate and over-embelished.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:40 pm |
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World Religions is a class already offered at my school, and it covers virtually every prominent religion known to man. I see nothing wrong with a Bible class tacked on to that.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:44 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | So teaching people about the Bible is now indoctrination? Hmm, here I was thinking that knowledge of religion might make people a little more cultured and smarter. We wouldn't want that though... |
If you want to teach religion, that is one thing. Teach all religions and make the masses a bit more intellegent. Maybe it'll teach people that not all muslims as terrorists then, or that there are other religions out there besides the one that is continuously shoved down the throats of non-christian people.
This is about the teaching of a book that is disputed among theologists and historians about being inaccurate and over-embelished. |
No. There should be classes dedicated to either all religions or each one of them. If Muslims wanted a class to teach about Islam, I would support it. If Hindus wanted a class to teach about Hinduism, then I would support it. We shouldn't have to cower in fear because anti-Religious people are trying to force their views on others. If this is an elective, a CHOICE, then there is no problem. Trying to get rid of it is just showing people their contempt towards religion. Thats call hate speech.
Christianity is shoved down the throats of non-Christians? Hhmm, I know MANY who would disagree with you. Christians, whether you like it or not, are part of this country too. It doesn't matter if people are "tired" of it. They deserve to be acknolwedge and a class teaching about the Bible would help people to understand it.
Funny, you don't mention the MANY theologians and scholars and historians who do think the Bible is accurate in many ways. Again, it doesn't matter if you believe it or not. This isn't a class to convert. Its to teach people about the Bible and the beliefs. It could help people understand why Christians believe the way the do. This leads to better understanding between different people.
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La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:48 pm |
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Well, here, in Michigan, we don't even have a "World Religions" or "Sex Education" class in our high schools. Or at least in my part 'o Michigan. I don't have anything against a Bible Class. I would just want it to be an elective. Seeing as I was born into a Christian family, you could call me Christian, but, I don't show it. I'm not a religious person. I would also expect a class on the Jew and Muslim faiths, seeing as I find those the two other biggest religions. Here, in Michigan, we have a diverse culture...
You know what this reminds me of? Those classes in the '80s that taught you urban talk...yeah...stupid, eh?
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You'll never hear me say this again in my life, but...
Go Red Sox!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:50 pm |
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Actually, Judaism has some of the lowest numbers of followers in the world, due to the Holocaust, and they are mostly concentrated in Israel. Fewer Americans, if I recall correctly, are Jewish than they are Muslim, so not so much.
And my class wasn't "Sex Ed," but a health class, actually.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:51 pm |
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Thank you for hitting the next point I wanted to make founder.
Would you really like the bible to be taught as it should be, or as it is?
Meaning:
Would you like it broken down into it's basic forms? Showing the sections that were stolen from other belief systems? Teaching parts on gospels written long after jesus was said to have died and in depth conversation on parts that were cut out and overembelished to make Christ seem less Human and more god like?
Or would you like it taught like it was in Sunday School?
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:55 pm |
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| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | Thank you for hitting the next point I wanted to make founder.
Would you really like the bible to be taught as it should be, or as it is?
Meaning:
Would you like it broken down into it's basic forms? Showing the sections that were stolen from other belief systems? Teaching parts on gospels written long after jesus was said to have died and in depth conversation on parts that were cut out and overembelished to make Christ seem less Human and more god like?
Or would you like it taught like it was in Sunday School? |
So in other words, would I rather want them to teach the unaccurate hate filled anti-Christian sentiments...OR...the "believe in us or burn" version. Both sides aren't the best choices.
I would want to say I want the beauty of my religion to be taught. The real message behind it. Peace. I would want the good and the bad of the Bible to taught. I want understanding.
Unfortnetly, your version is NOT understanding but more hate speech. You want people to learn the problems of the Bible so they can hate it and ridicule the "false" book. No. I dont want more HATE to be spread. I want more understanding between each faith.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Tue May 02, 2006 9:55 pm |
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I hate to admit it, but Link does make a good point in terms of the indoctrination of our children with regards to the other books, like the so-called "Book of Judas," that might be taught in the school. That's not something I would want taught to me, expecting to take the class and enjoy it and whatnot.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 02, 2006 10:01 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | I hate to admit it, but Link does make a good point in terms of the indoctrination of our children with regards to the other books, like the so-called "Book of Judas," that might be taught in the school. That's not something I would want taught to me, expecting to take the class and enjoy it and whatnot. |
He isn't pointing out that the other books that are "bad" would be taught and could be harmful. He is saying that if we teach the Bible, then it should either be the "sunday school" version or the "real" version. Whatever that means. He is implying the Bible stole things, has inaccurate books, etc. So he is saying that, that stuff should be taught. I guess...over the REAL message? In other words, the bad sides of the Bible is what "should" be taught. Which in my opinion, isn't good at all.
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Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
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| Tue May 02, 2006 10:08 pm |
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Founder, that wasn't hate speech, that was truth. The bible "borrowed" many of it's main ideas from other belief structures. If your going to teach something, you need to treat it fairly.
| Founder wrote: | | So in other words, would I rather want them to teach the unaccurate hate filled anti-Christian sentiments...OR...the "believe in us or burn" version. Both sides aren't the best choices. |
No, it's basically, do you want the truth to be taught? Or do you want it to be taught with all of the good, but none of the truth.
| Founder wrote: | I would want to say I want the beauty of my religion to be taught. The real message behind it. Peace. I would want the good and the bad of the Bible to taught. I want understanding.
Unfortnetly, your version is NOT understanding but more hate speech. You want people to learn the problems of the Bible so they can hate it and ridicule the "false" book. No. I dont want more HATE to be spread. I want more understanding between each faith. |
From your answer though, you want it taught like a sunday school class. All the good, none of the truth. People will then walk out of that class with a sckewed perspective on the bible then.
You need to understand, The message of the Bible can still be conveyed even after understanding of the book is reached. It can be broken down into it's basic bits, but even then the same message would still be there.
And RM, the gospel of Judas has been dated to about 130-170 C.E (or AD) So it would put it on par with the other gospels. A bit later then some, but on par.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Tue May 02, 2006 10:13 pm |
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| Quote: | | Founder, that wasn't hate speech, that was truth. The bible "borrowed" many of it's main ideas from other belief structures. If your going to teach something, you need to treat it fairly. |
I am sorry, but no. Although some parts of the Bible may very well resemble beliefs of other religions, they are not 'borrowed' as you put it. I heard a great Podcast that discussed just this, and I will see if I can find it for you. That is a whole different subject though, so I won't discuss it further.
But yes, this is the reason why I don't want it taught in public schools-because the people who want it taught I don't think could even agree on how to teach it. That is not what we need. If it is going to be optional, then what's the point? Why don't you just go to church if you want to learn about it? The Church after all is the authority on such matters, so it would only make since to me to go to it. I don't want just any other person teaching kids about the Bible. I want it to be a priest.
Last edited by Puck on Tue May 02, 2006 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue May 02, 2006 10:15 pm |
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I understand what you're saying Link. I don't want the Sunday school version. See that is the problem. If I want to talk about the beauty of my religion and it's TRUE message, none of this anti-Gay, anti-this or that stuff, that suddenly means I want the skewed version. It doesn't mean that. There is a hidden depth to it that much be reached. It was simply lost to mistranslations and greedy people who twisted the meaning to suit political gains.
I understand that you want all facets of the Bible to be taught, but if it is soley about "Hah! Look! This story is innacurate! Look! This story is stolen from Egyptians! Look!" etc etc etc. If the entire class is dedicated to how "bad" the Bible is, no greater understanding will be met. People will leave the class with contempt and disgust towards my Christian brothers and sisters. That isn't right either wouldn't you say?
Thats like having a class about Islam and picking out verses that VAGUELY talk about killing infidels. How good it is or whatever. Then people will leave the class thinking that all Muslims are psychotic fundementalists.
We need to teach about the spiritual beauty of religion to understand each other.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Tue May 02, 2006 10:17 pm |
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I don't really think public schools need to be teaching the bible, aligning with Kevin's comment there. I'm fine with teaching about other religions, and things like that... but if you want to learn about Christianity, just go to a church. That's an optional type of thing, too. In colleges it makes more sense, as you have scholars who might have studied history and culture and the bible all their lives, be them Christian or not. In a public school? I don't think it's something we need to be toiling with. Not on the level of an entire class.
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