| Author |
Message |
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
 Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:54 am |
|
| Lynx wrote: | You don't believe it because you don't want to believe it? 
Here is a helpful hint. Stop putting words in people's mouths. Its something you've been doing since you joined the site to argue about Kes. To you, anyone who didn't mind Kes leaving the show is obviously some who hated her, likes Seven of Nine's catsuit, etc. Not everything is as black and white as you want it to be.
But here are some URL:s:
A couple of years ago I found this chart:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/Lynx677/Star_TrekVOY27157.gif
Unfortunately, I can't find the site where I once found it but I downloaded the picture to my Photobucket site. However, I'm sure that this would make some people believe that I had made this chart myself so during the recent months I have found those websites with the same information:
http://members.aol.com/arlie88/
with this chart:
http://members.aol.com/arlie88/chart1.gif
And also this site:
http://www.geos.tv/index.php/index/voy
Seven didn't save the show. That's an exaggeration. She did create some interest and attract many new viewers but she didn't save the show. Voyager managed pretty good without her.
Not really. See that chart isn't wholly accurate. The only reason the show went on a downward spiral after Seven of Nine came on the show, is because of the network, not the show. UPN is not very reliable and an unpopular network.
I'm sure that Seven did attract a lot of fans who liked the character itself but she also attracted many of those who did like her for "the sex factor". You just have to look at the comments about her on some forums to see that.
Yeah, there were SOME people who did, but not as many as you claim.
I still remember the day I first entered a Star Trek Voyager forum back in 1998 and wrote a post that I thought that Kes should have remained in the series, nothing more. I was immediately insulted and ridiculed for that by a couple of fans who could easily be described as "horny retards", commenting on why they thought Seven was much better than Kes. This incident followed by similar others shortly afterwards plus my negative attitude to "the changes in season 4" turned me into the evil "Seven-trasher" I was for some years until people like teya and some other Seven fans I debated with showed me that there were ardent fans who liked the character and the actress for other reasons than sex and who gave me respect for them and their favorite.
Maybe those fans jumped at you because you acted the way you did over there like you do here. You complain about Kes leaving and snap at anyone who disagrees. Suddenly, those people HATE Kes! They're against her! Blah blah blah. That isn't always the case. I like Seven of Nine more than Kes, but that doesn't mean I hate Kes nor does it mean I like Seven of Nine simply cause of her looks. She has been on the most interesting characters in TREK, not just VOY. Did her looks help her a lot? A lot? No. But it did help. She didn't do bad acting and her stories were really good.
However, the catsuit and over-focus on Seven did actually create some sour comments from non-Voyager fans and did turn Voyager into a laughing stock among some Star Trek fans. So there was obviously two sides of the coin.
I don't see that. The only people I see who complain about Seven of Nine's catsuit are hardcore Janeway fans who delude themselves into believing the old lady is better looking than Seven. Over-focus happens on all of the shows to be frank. TOS had the over-focus on Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. TNG had the over focus on Picard and Data. DS9? I'm not sure. They seemed to balance everyone fairly well, but some may disagree. VOY had Seven of Nine and the EMH. Then again, those two were the most interesting.
Besides that, a lot of people did like "the 9 year smiling alien" too and for them the show was ruined when she "left"  during dubious circumstances which I'm not gonna comment here. There's another thread for that, as you probably have noticed.
A lot of people liked Kes? Speaking of exaggerations. She obviously wasn't liked enough to stay on the show. The show was ruined when she left? Wow...
I haven't questioned the fact that some of the Maquis to be decipted as bad guys. The problem was that the only people who were decipted as bad guys were Maquis. There must have been at least some dubious people among the Starfleet crew as well. As for the Starfleet crew who teated the hologram as crap, thanks to Kes there was a change of that. As for thse who were suspicious of a Borg getting access to all important part of the ship, I see that as a more natural reaction. The Borg weren't actually Starfleet's best buddies, you know but that attitude to Seven did change very quickly, what I remember. |
Like I said, the only people depicted as bad guys were NOT always Maquis. It was usually the bad guy alien of the week. As I already stated, the Starfleet officers SHOULD have caused less trouble since they were more disciplined. Who cares if Kes changed that? The fact of the matter is, it still happened. The EMH was treated like crap by Starfleet officers. Even Janeway was mean to him. It showed there WERE Starfleet officers that were bad. Also, I don't think it was Kes that single handedly changed it. She helped, but it was mostly the EMH proving himself. As for the Starfleet officers being let off the hook for being mean to Seven, you could argue the same thing with the Maquis. It was a natural reaction for the Maquis to go against Starfleet, their enemy. Starfleet wasn't the Maquis' "best buddies" either. You keep saying that the Starfleet problems were resolved in the end, so its ok. The Maquis problems were resolved in the end too. So I guess thats ok as well.
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:43 am |
|
This is where I really hate Voyager, the first couple episodes made a big huge deal how Chakotay and his crew were in fact, Maquis. Much beyond that it's like "Oh, yeah we were, but what ever" Look at Chakotay, this was a man who belived in the cause so strongly, he in person, resigned his commision, and walked away not looking back. Then on VOY, he in two episodes, basicly forgets what he was.
|
|
|
Talking Rain
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 265
Location: Canada
|
| Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:04 pm |
|
Ya but LB you got to understand to, His crew and Janeway's crew were lost in space with no way home. And the way to survive was if they combined their crews and worked together.
|
|
|
La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
|
| Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:10 pm |
|
Uhhh...Lynx? Isn't this thread about the "Maquis and the Federation"? I don't think that this thread is called "Who is Better? Seven of Nine or Kes?". Alright?
Alright...
Anyhoo...If I had to categorize the Maquis, I would consider them people fighting for a good cause, but, in all the wrong ways.
And...yeah...LB is right. The Maquis should have been a big deal in VOY...alas...they only ACTED like MAQUIS in...oh...what? Three episodes? What a shame...
Oh, Lynx? Yeah...Seven of Nine is better...and, no...I don't like her because of her looks...that would be weird...
|
|
|
Sonic74205
Rear Admiral
Joined: 01 Feb 2004
Posts: 4081
Location: England
|
| Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:44 pm |
|
Id just like to point out that i personally do believe 7 saved the show. But it is a fact that she didnt, ratings hardly rised at all in the episodes about her. It seems like she saved the show and i personally believe that. But, simply...she didnt.
-------signature-------
<a href="<img>http://sonic.11.forumer.com</a>
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:49 pm |
|
| Talking Rain wrote: | | Ya but LB you got to understand to, His crew and Janeway's crew were lost in space with no way home. And the way to survive was if they combined their crews and worked together. |
They didn't really make a compromise though. It wasn't working together. It was Janeway saying "This is my ship, so you all become Starfleet crew." and the Maquis were just like "Yeah...alright. Where is my uniform?"
|
|
|
Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:54 am |
|
| Founder wrote: | | Lynx wrote: | You don't believe it because you don't want to believe it?
Here is a helpful hint. Stop putting words in people's mouths. Its something you've been doing since you joined the site to argue about Kes. To you, anyone who didn't mind Kes leaving the show is obviously some who hated her, likes Seven of Nine's catsuit, etc. Not everything is as black and white as you want it to be.
But here are some URL:s:
A couple of years ago I found this chart:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/Lynx677/Star_TrekVOY27157.gif
Unfortunately, I can't find the site where I once found it but I downloaded the picture to my Photobucket site. However, I'm sure that this would make some people believe that I had made this chart myself so during the recent months I have found those websites with the same information:
http://members.aol.com/arlie88/
with this chart:
http://members.aol.com/arlie88/chart1.gif
And also this site:
http://www.geos.tv/index.php/index/voy
Seven didn't save the show. That's an exaggeration. She did create some interest and attract many new viewers but she didn't save the show. Voyager managed pretty good without her.
Not really. See that chart isn't wholly accurate. The only reason the show went on a downward spiral after Seven of Nine came on the show, is because of the network, not the show. UPN is not very reliable and an unpopular network.
I'm sure that Seven did attract a lot of fans who liked the character itself but she also attracted many of those who did like her for "the sex factor". You just have to look at the comments about her on some forums to see that.
Yeah, there were SOME people who did, but not as many as you claim.
I still remember the day I first entered a Star Trek Voyager forum back in 1998 and wrote a post that I thought that Kes should have remained in the series, nothing more. I was immediately insulted and ridiculed for that by a couple of fans who could easily be described as "horny retards", commenting on why they thought Seven was much better than Kes. This incident followed by similar others shortly afterwards plus my negative attitude to "the changes in season 4" turned me into the evil "Seven-trasher" I was for some years until people like teya and some other Seven fans I debated with showed me that there were ardent fans who liked the character and the actress for other reasons than sex and who gave me respect for them and their favorite.
Maybe those fans jumped at you because you acted the way you did over there like you do here. You complain about Kes leaving and snap at anyone who disagrees. Suddenly, those people HATE Kes! They're against her! Blah blah blah. That isn't always the case. I like Seven of Nine more than Kes, but that doesn't mean I hate Kes nor does it mean I like Seven of Nine simply cause of her looks. She has been on the most interesting characters in TREK, not just VOY. Did her looks help her a lot? A lot? No. But it did help. She didn't do bad acting and her stories were really good.
However, the catsuit and over-focus on Seven did actually create some sour comments from non-Voyager fans and did turn Voyager into a laughing stock among some Star Trek fans. So there was obviously two sides of the coin.
I don't see that. The only people I see who complain about Seven of Nine's catsuit are hardcore Janeway fans who delude themselves into believing the old lady is better looking than Seven. Over-focus happens on all of the shows to be frank. TOS had the over-focus on Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. TNG had the over focus on Picard and Data. DS9? I'm not sure. They seemed to balance everyone fairly well, but some may disagree. VOY had Seven of Nine and the EMH. Then again, those two were the most interesting.
Besides that, a lot of people did like "the 9 year smiling alien" too and for them the show was ruined when she "left" during dubious circumstances which I'm not gonna comment here. There's another thread for that, as you probably have noticed.
A lot of people liked Kes? Speaking of exaggerations. She obviously wasn't liked enough to stay on the show. The show was ruined when she left? Wow...
I haven't questioned the fact that some of the Maquis to be decipted as bad guys. The problem was that the only people who were decipted as bad guys were Maquis. There must have been at least some dubious people among the Starfleet crew as well. As for the Starfleet crew who teated the hologram as crap, thanks to Kes there was a change of that. As for thse who were suspicious of a Borg getting access to all important part of the ship, I see that as a more natural reaction. The Borg weren't actually Starfleet's best buddies, you know but that attitude to Seven did change very quickly, what I remember. |
Like I said, the only people depicted as bad guys were NOT always Maquis. It was usually the bad guy alien of the week. As I already stated, the Starfleet officers SHOULD have caused less trouble since they were more disciplined. Who cares if Kes changed that? The fact of the matter is, it still happened. The EMH was treated like crap by Starfleet officers. Even Janeway was mean to him. It showed there WERE Starfleet officers that were bad. Also, I don't think it was Kes that single handedly changed it. She helped, but it was mostly the EMH proving himself. As for the Starfleet officers being let off the hook for being mean to Seven, you could argue the same thing with the Maquis. It was a natural reaction for the Maquis to go against Starfleet, their enemy. Starfleet wasn't the Maquis' "best buddies" either. You keep saying that the Starfleet problems were resolved in the end, so its ok. The Maquis problems were resolved in the end too. So I guess thats ok as well. |
Since this thread is about "The Maquis and the Federation" and not about ratings and such, I will not go into details here but I'm ready to take the discussions about my provided ratings which are obviously correct and "Seven' s saving of the show" which is a silly exaggeration, in some other thread. But most of your statements here are not correct, to say the least.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:36 am |
|
| Lynx wrote: | | Since this thread is about "The Maquis and the Federation" and not about ratings and such, I will not go into details here but I'm ready to take the discussions about my provided ratings which are obviously correct and "Seven' s saving of the show" which is a silly exaggeration, in some other thread. But most of your statements here are not correct, to say the least. |
All you can say is what you are saying is correct and what I'm saying is not. Right....
You also completely ignored the rest of my post. That isn't a debate. That is just one sided, narrow mindedness.
|
|
|
Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:55 am |
|
OK, we'll take the debate here and now!
| Lynx wrote: | | You don't believe it because you don't want to believe it? |
| Founder wrote: | | Here is a helpful hint. Stop putting words in people's mouths. Its something you've been doing since you joined the site to argue about Kes. To you, anyone who didn't mind Kes leaving the show is obviously some who hated her, likes Seven of Nine's catsuit, etc. Not everything is as black and white as you want it to be. |
If you like a character, then you won't celebrate that the character is kicked out. I haven't seen any positive comment about Kes from you. Therfore I assume that the character isn't a favorite of yours, to say the least.
| Founder wrote: | | Not really. See that chart isn't wholly accurate. The only reason the show went on a downward spiral after Seven of Nine came on the show, is because of the network, not the show. UPN is not very reliable and an unpopular network. |
Yeah right, ratings are OK when they show that seasons 4-7 were better or more popular than seasons 1-3 but veeerry wrong when they show the opposite. What I see of those statistics is that season 1-3 had more viewers than seasons 5-7. The only exception is season 4 when many viewers wanted to see "the new favorite". But blame UPN if it's a good excuse.
| Lynx wrote: | | I'm sure that Seven did attract a lot of fans who liked the character itself but she also attracted many of those who did like her for "the sex factor". You just have to look at the comments about her on some forums to see that. |
| Founder wrote: | | Yeah, there were SOME people who did, but not as many as you claim. |
Oh yes, they were and still are. Just take a look at some of the Star Trek forums, then you'll see that there are a lot of people who like Seven more for her looks than anything else.
| Lynx wrote: | | I still remember the day I first entered a Star Trek Voyager forum back in 1998 and wrote a post that I thought that Kes should have remained in the series, nothing more. I was immediately insulted and ridiculed for that by a couple of fans who could easily be described as "horny retards", commenting on why they thought Seven was much better than Kes. This incident followed by similar others shortly afterwards plus my negative attitude to "the changes in season 4" turned me into the evil "Seven-trasher" I was for some years until people like teya and some other Seven fans I debated with showed me that there were ardent fans who liked the character and the actress for other reasons than sex and who gave me respect for them and their favorite. |
| Founder wrote: | | Maybe those fans jumped at you because you acted the way you did over there like you do here. You complain about Kes leaving and snap at anyone who disagrees. Suddenly, those people HATE Kes! They're against her! Blah blah blah. That isn't always the case. I like Seven of Nine more than Kes, but that doesn't mean I hate Kes nor does it mean I like Seven of Nine simply cause of her looks. She has been on the most interesting characters in TREK, not just VOY. Did her looks help her a lot? A lot? No. But it did help. She didn't do bad acting and her stories were really good. |
Oh no, I didn't. I was just stating that Kes should have remained in the show, that it was wrong to fire Jennifer Lien and that the changes weren't necessary.
As for the acting, it was good but I think Ryan was better in "Boston Public" and "OC" where she portrayed more realistic characters. As for the stories, well they actually designed the whole Voyager concept to Seven Of Nine. It was like the whole series started when she came on board. Over-focus, yes and sometimes the stories weren't that good either. I preferred the "ensemble show" in seasons 1-3.
| Lynx wrote: | | However, the catsuit and over-focus on Seven did actually create some sour comments from non-Voyager fans and did turn Voyager into a laughing stock among some Star Trek fans. So there was obviously two sides of the coin. |
| Founder wrote: | | I don't see that. The only people I see who complain about Seven of Nine's catsuit are hardcore Janeway fans who delude themselves into believing the old lady is better looking than Seven. Over-focus happens on all of the shows to be frank. TOS had the over-focus on Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. TNG had the over focus on Picard and Data. DS9? I'm not sure. They seemed to balance everyone fairly well, but some may disagree. VOY had Seven of Nine and the EMH. Then again, those two were the most interesting. |
Ahh! Suddenly those TNG, TOS and DS9 fans who used to make fun of Voyager because of the catsuit are hardcore Janeway fans! I didn't know that our captain had so strong support from fans of the other series.
Seven and The Doc the most interesting characters? Definitely not. To be honest, all of the others, except maybe for Kim were more interesting.
| Lynx wrote: | | Besides that, a lot of people did like "the 9 year smiling alien" too and for them the show was ruined when she "left" during dubious circumstances which I'm not gonna comment here. There's another thread for that, as you probably have noticed. |
| Founder wrote: | | A lot of people liked Kes? Speaking of exaggerations. She obviously wasn't liked enough to stay on the show. The show was ruined when she left? Wow... |
Now I will give you an advice: Stop being so arrogant to the Kes fans. She did have a lot of fans and there were even more casual Voyager fans who were sad to see her go. It was TIIC who didn't like her enough and they did find out about that in the last possible minute when they changed their minds about scrapping Kes instead of Kim.
And yes, I consider the show ruined when she was kicked out and I'm not alone in that statement.
|
|
|
La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:53 am |
|
Ahem!
This thread was not made to discuss KES and SEVEN OF NINE!!!
This is becoming rather annoying. Take it to the Kes topic, Lynx! Yikes!
This thread is about THE MAQUIS AND THE FEDERATION!!! Now, Lynx...I don't know how you got around to talking about Kes (yet, you always seem to be able to do that.), but, I think now is a good time to stop. I'm sorry if I seem rude..
Now...where was I? Ah...I just watched an episode of DS9, "The Maquis" (Parts 1 & 2). It showed the good and the bad of the Maquis. I'll explain later.
Last edited by La Forge on Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:55 am |
|
Lynx, this is not to debate seven of nine and Kes, do not do so anymore in this topic.
|
|
|
Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:25 am |
|
| Lord Borg wrote: | | Lynx, this is not to debate seven of nine and Kes, do not do so anymore in this topic. |
I apologize for replying to other non-topic posts and I promise not to do so anymore.
Can you please inform the other posters too who are involved in the off-topic debate that this thread is about "The Maquis and the Federation" and nothing more so we can keep on topic.
Thanks!
|
|
|
La Forge
Bajoran Colonel
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 2125
Location: Babylon 5
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:40 pm |
|
I'm sorry for talking out of line. It was just, that there already is a thread to discuss Kes in all of her (non-existing) glory.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:26 pm |
|
I too am to blame for fueling the off topic conversation.
My point is that the Maquis in ST VOY, were not the same Maquis from DS9. They didn't seem to care about the cause. Eddington and Cal Hudon gave up their commissions to join the Maquis. Chakotay and the others? Joined Starfleet...
|
|
|
Fish1941
Senior Cadet
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
| Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:02 pm |
|
| La Forge wrote: | Seriously, Fish. Do you hate Deep Space Nine or something?
DS9 wasn't ABOUT the Maquis. Sure, DS9 used the Maquis from time to time, but, DS9's main plot was about the DOMINION and Bajor and whatnot...not the Maquis.
VOY should have and COULD have used the Maquis...better, I s'pose. The show could have been great. But, no. They decided to have the Maquis fall in line and obey the Federation crew and JOIN them, without little resistance, just because Chakotay become's friends with the Captain and says, join the Fed.
Yep...
DS9 all the way! |
DS9 is my second favorite Trek show (DO NOT MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT MY CHOICES OR ANYTHING ABOUT ME. IT P*SSES ME OFF). But since most of the Federation/Maquis conflict happened on THAT show before VOY even premiered, I believe that it could have been handled a lot better. And it doesn't make sense for VOY to bear the brunt of the Federation/Maquis conflict, when no outcome could be possible, thousands of light years away in the Delta Quadrant. They had already stretched this conflict on Voyager for the show's first two seasons (YOU WOULD KNOW THIS IF YOU WERE PAYING ATTENTION). To continue it beyond that would have made it redundant. Not only that, it makes even less sense for the show to be dominated by the Maquis/Federation conflict when surviving the Delta Quadrant and getting home should be an even bigger priority.
No, the best place to deal with the consequences of the Maquis conflict was either on TNG or DS9. And neither show dealt with it. Instead, they made the Maquis to be either completely wrong or misguided . . . and the Federation supremely and self-righteously right . . . as always.
| Quote: | | This is where I really hate Voyager, the first couple episodes made a big huge deal how Chakotay and his crew were in fact, Maquis. Much beyond that it's like "Oh, yeah we were, but what ever" Look at Chakotay, this was a man who belived in the cause so strongly, he in person, resigned his commision, and walked away not looking back. Then on VOY, he in two episodes, basicly forgets what he was. |
Whoever wrote this DID NOT pay any attention to the show, beyond its first few episodes of Season One.
|
|
|
Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
|
| Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:44 pm |
|
Number one, don't write swears with a letter censored out, either write the whole damn word, or not at all.
Number two, people were paying attention, and writing it all in ittalics and caps just makes you look like someone who gets pissy when their opinion isn't something everyone agrees to.
Number three: The conflict would have made perfect sense, the Maquis wouldnt have given the Ocompca a second thought, they wouldn't have asked for 146 people to be stranded for a planet of strangers.
Number Four. I wrote that, and DID pay attention, I have seen almost every episode of Voyager, I know what I'm talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Star Trek �, in all its various forms, are trademarks & copyrights of Paramount Pictures
This site has no official connection with Star Trek or Paramount Pictures
Site content/Site design elements owned by Morphy and is meant to only be an archive/Tribute to STV.com
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
