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LukeKelland
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 134
Location: Somerset, England
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 Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:21 am Stealing and the Federation Charter |
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In the episode "Dark frontier", Voyager steals a Transwarp coil...
What I cant help think is that this must be against the principles of the federation, after all, in the episode "The Void" Janeway refuses to take a supply of food from another vessel because it isnt hers...
Whats the differacne in this two situations? Why did she feel it was approprite to steal in one situation, and not in anther?
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:56 pm |
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Hmm...interesting question. I shall have to think about this in depth and get back to you...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:06 pm |
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You'll find that Janeway and VOY are horrible examples of the perfect Starfleet captain and her crew.
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:16 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | You'll find that Janeway and VOY are horrible examples of the perfect Starfleet captain and her crew. |
Thats because they were 70 years from home. You want morality, go to TNG.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:29 am |
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| WeAz wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | You'll find that Janeway and VOY are horrible examples of the perfect Starfleet captain and her crew. |
Thats because they were 70 years from home. You want morality, go to TNG. |
I agree with that assessment! And besides, Janeway and her crew "not being perfect Starfleet examples" is just one opinion...
They would have been just another ship in the AQ...you want horrible examples of Captain and Crew, look at the Equinox. 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:06 pm |
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Um...the show revolved around how Janeway kept saying they would never overstep their moral bounds and Federation ethics. Janeway would chastize her crew for it. She punished Harry Kim for relations with an alien. She demoted Paris for violating orders. She confined Chakotay to his quarters because he didn't allow her to torture a STARFLEET officer. She screwed with the Doctor's program. The list goes on and on. Janeway kept spouting morals when her crew would mess up, but when she did something bad, it suddenly became acceptable...
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:11 am |
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Demoted Paris because he interfered with something he shouldn't have.
Got onto Harry NOT because he had relations with an alien, but had relations with an alien WITHOUT the Doctor's approval.
What'd she do with the Doctor's program? *edit* Oh, are you talking about the episode she deleted his memory? That was well explained in the episode about why she did it! It was for the protection of his program to prevent him from destablizing. So she didn't really "SCREW" with anything.
And she was only conducting a offensive maneuver on the Borg. They only turned the tables on the Borg once. I can't say that I wouldn't want a transwarp coil if it were capable of being obtained. And especially if the rest of the crew weren't against it.
I know you can turn that last sentence into "Well, if you do one thing wrong then it's easier to do another thing wrong." But that's not where I was going with that sentence, so please don't say it. 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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LukeKelland
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 134
Location: Somerset, England
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| Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:36 am |
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[quote="Voyager2004"]And she was only conducting a offensive maneuver on the Borg. They only turned the tables on the Borg once. I can't say that I wouldn't want a transwarp coil if it were capable of being obtained. And especially if the rest of the crew weren't against it.
quote]
I agree with the sentiment, Id want a TW coil as well, but surely you cant justify stealing in one context and not in another.
Dishonesty starts you down a slippery slope.
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Tuvok8917
Dutchie
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 4205
Location: On my way back home
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| Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:29 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: |
They would have been just another ship in the AQ...you want horrible examples of Captain and Crew, look at the Equinox. |
I do not agree.
If the USS Equinox didn't met with Voyager, they had collected much more information. Then the Federation would know much more about the Delta Quardrent. Unfortunally, they did met Voyager and also met thier doom...
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:50 pm |
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| Tuvok8917 wrote: | | Voyager2004 wrote: |
They would have been just another ship in the AQ...you want horrible examples of Captain and Crew, look at the Equinox. |
I do not agree.
If the USS Equinox didn't met with Voyager, they had collected much more information. Then the Federation would know much more about the Delta Quardrent. Unfortunally, they did met Voyager and also met thier doom... |
Ya, but they went above and beyond stealing. They murdered innocent lifeforms for their benefit to get home fast. That's not a good example. It doesn't matter how much data they may or may not have collected. It doesn't make what they did right...
Whoops...sorry, BOT...
| LukeKelland wrote: | | I agree with the sentiment, Id want a TW coil as well, but surely you cant justify stealing in one context and not in another. |
At least I'm not the only one...but I agree that stealing in one context and stuff...but stealing food stuffs that weren't their own and the other crew could replenish, versus taking one simple coil that the Borg could more than replenish...ya, I'd go for the coil, too.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:31 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | Tuvok8917 wrote: | | Voyager2004 wrote: |
They would have been just another ship in the AQ...you want horrible examples of Captain and Crew, look at the Equinox. |
I do not agree.
If the USS Equinox didn't met with Voyager, they had collected much more information. Then the Federation would know much more about the Delta Quardrent. Unfortunally, they did met Voyager and also met thier doom... |
Ya, but they went above and beyond stealing. They murdered innocent lifeforms for their benefit to get home fast. That's not a good example. It doesn't matter how much data they may or may not have collected. It doesn't make what they did right...
Whoops...sorry, BOT...
| LukeKelland wrote: | | I agree with the sentiment, Id want a TW coil as well, but surely you cant justify stealing in one context and not in another. |
At least I'm not the only one...but I agree that stealing in one context and stuff...but stealing food stuffs that weren't their own and the other crew could replenish, versus taking one simple coil that the Borg could more than replenish...ya, I'd go for the coil, too. |
Plus, no captain or crew are absolutely perfect. I'm sure Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Archer all made mistakes too.
I think the worse example was the Equinox captain and crew, that was crazy. I mean, murdering those lifeforms just to get home, I don't care if Janeway wanted to torture what's his name or not. I do admit that she kind of lost it during that episode though. I thought it was a good way to show that everyone is human and acts that way, not being perfect.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:52 am |
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Oh ya, she definitely lost it, a little. I can't say that I fault her for losing it because she so desperately wanted to protect the Starfleet name and what she has fought so hard for...but it does go to show that she's just human.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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LukeKelland
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 134
Location: Somerset, England
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| Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:38 am |
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| Quote: | | I think the worse example was the Equinox captain and crew, that was crazy. I mean, murdering those lifeforms just to get home, I don't care if Janeway wanted to torture what's his name or not. I do admit that she kind of lost it during that episode though. I thought it was a good way to show that everyone is human and acts that way, not being perfect. |
Absolutly, but the thing is, I think I can sort of understand why they did it. the equinox was a Nova class scinece vessal, and they had no realistic chance of getting home in their lifetime...
Its not as if the ship was as good as Voyager, they had nowhere near as many reasources, and as such I can understand why they did everything in their power. It was wrong, but ask your self what you WOULDNT do to get back to your family..
| Quote: | | Oh ya, she definitely lost it, a little. I can't say that I fault her for losing it because she so desperately wanted to protect the Starfleet name |
But to do that to someone is hardly protecting the values of the Federation is it? The federation was buit on the values of co-operation and tolerance for eceryone. I think to torture a person goes against all that the Deeration stands for.[/quote]
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:56 am |
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| LukeKelland wrote: | | Quote: | | I think the worse example was the Equinox captain and crew, that was crazy. I mean, murdering those lifeforms just to get home, I don't care if Janeway wanted to torture what's his name or not. I do admit that she kind of lost it during that episode though. I thought it was a good way to show that everyone is human and acts that way, not being perfect. |
Absolutly, but the thing is, I think I can sort of understand why they did it. the equinox was a Nova class scinece vessal, and they had no realistic chance of getting home in their lifetime...
Its not as if the ship was as good as Voyager, they had nowhere near as many reasources, and as such I can understand why they did everything in their power. It was wrong, but ask your self what you WOULDNT do to get back to your family.. |
Just because the Equinox was a Nova class ship doesn't give them the right to do what they did. NOTHING justifies what they did. I wouldn't have done it. I would probably have changed course and NOT have lost half of my crew in my first few months in the DQ.
And realistically Voyager wouldn't have made it home in their own lifetime. The only reason they did is because they cut off 20,000 LY with a Borg Transwarp Coil, (as mentioned in this topic), and a few other substantial jumps that the Equinox wasn't privy to. So, technically Voyager could very well have been in the DQ for their children's entire life. So, that doesn't give the Equinox an excuse.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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LukeKelland
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 134
Location: Somerset, England
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:16 am |
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| Quote: | Just because the Equinox was a Nova class ship doesn't give them the right to do what they did. NOTHING justifies what they did. I wouldn't have done it. I would probably have changed course and NOT have lost half of my crew in my first few months in the DQ.
And realistically Voyager wouldn't have made it home in their own lifetime. The only reason they did is because they cut off 20,000 LY with a Borg Transwarp Coil, (as mentioned in this topic), and a few other substantial jumps that the Equinox wasn't privy to. So, technically Voyager could very well have been in the DQ for their children's entire life. So, that doesn't give the Equinox an excuse |
Im not saying it gave them an excuse, or that it justified the murder of innocents, I'm just saying that I could understand the desperation to get home to their loved ones. Personelly I wouldnt take action as drastic as that either. The point is that they were vunerable, far more so then Voyager. The Intrepid class vessel was designed for long range tactical missions, and the Nova class ships weren't. they could barley defend themselves, had a small crem, and couldnt go faster than warp 8. In my opinion Voyager had a good chance of getting home. The Equinox had none. It was that knowledge that drove the crew to murder, It's not right I agree, but I do wonder what I would not do to get home.
At the end of the day it takes a crisis such as this to bring out your true character, and Captain Ransom was obviously the type that would do anything for his own ends.
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SirAnthony
Senior Cadet
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 20
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:06 pm |
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You guys! The Borg are like mortal enimies. The federation has basically been at war with them. The Borg assimilate (steal) whatever they can. Of cource they did nothing wrong taking the warp conduit. HELLO!!!
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:30 pm |
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You can't take a Transwarp Conduit, the conduit is what the ship travels in. they took a Transwarp Coil...
And it doesn't matter what the Borg have done...I'm not saying it was right of Janeway to steal the coil, but I can't fault her, blame her, or say that I wouldn't have done it. Because if the opportunity arose in front of me, I'd have done it as well...
But just because the Borg "do" it, doesn't make it right.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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SirAnthony
Senior Cadet
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 20
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:37 pm |
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"But just because the Borg "do" it, doesn't make it right."
Thats funny
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:47 pm |
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| SirAnthony wrote: | "But just because the Borg "do" it, doesn't make it right."
Thats funny |
If you say so. It's not supposed to be funny...but whatever. 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:54 pm |
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Alrighty then.
The Borg destroy other civilizations and steal their technology, so it's logical to assume that the coil is a piece of technology that they stole. By stealing the coil from the Borg, she basically took advantage of the people the coil came from in the same way the Borg did. It would be the same if somebody stole a wallet and killed the owner, dropped the wallet, and I took it instead. Hardly right.
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SirAnthony
Senior Cadet
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 20
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| Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:45 am |
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I'm starting to see why this forum is dead. I feel like I'm debating my mom when I come here. Mom had good advice when I was 14. She is hardly the person I would ask about diplomacy or how to best deal with the borg in the year 2558 or whatever it is.
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LukeKelland
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 05 Mar 2002
Posts: 134
Location: Somerset, England
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| Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:38 am |
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| SirAnthony wrote: | | I'm starting to see why this forum is dead. I feel like I'm debating my mom when I come here. Mom had good advice when I was 14. She is hardly the person I would ask about diplomacy or how to best deal with the borg in the year 2558 or whatever it is. |
And what relevance does that have whatsoever?
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dragonfang196
Ensign
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 50
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| Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:55 pm |
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time to time janeway disobeys starfleet orders cuz they're so far out
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon May 01, 2006 9:05 am |
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time to time?!
Ya, every captain does it from "time to time." And even then it's more "bending" the rules than "breaking" them. Heck, Sisko's done it several times...so come on.
And the Federation rules aren't "so far out." They're just more difficult to uphold when one is stranded so far from friendly space. I don't expect Picard of Sisko to have done much different in her place.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Waverider9.9
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 22 Aug 2002
Posts: 72
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| Wed May 03, 2006 4:07 am |
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Commander Riker and Co. "stole" Locutus from a borg cube.
Captain Janeway "stole" a transwarp coil.
Oh ethics!
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