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philbo baggins
Sophomore Cadet
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Midlands - Thats in the Middle of the UK funnily enought... :-)
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 Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:03 pm Timeship Relativity v's Endgame! |
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Just wondered what anybody elses thoughts were on the Timeship Relativity... if she really is watching from the future to put right the timeline do you think its safe to assume that it would make it a priority mission to stop Admiral Janeway returning to Voyager in the past with advanced technology that will advance Star Fleet my decades once Voyager returns to Earth in Endgame??
Just a thought! 
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:15 pm |
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I think the inclusion of a Temporal Federation was really stupid. Leave it to VOY to do it too. I don't know how many episode of TOS and TNG(movies included) and DS9 and VOY all had time travel. Why didn't the Temporal Federation assist with any of those problems? Where were they?
They were weakly returned in ENT during the Temporal Cold War, but again, they didn't do much and used the past Starfleet officers to do their bidding.
Which leads me to believe that they are susceptible to time incursions too. In other words, they have temporal sensors, can transport people through time, etc. But they don't have anything protecting them against the manipulation of past events.
For example, when the Borg assimilated Earth during First Contact. I think the Temporal Federation could only watch helplessly as the Borg assimilated the past. They were unable to stop it in time.
There is only one problem: being able to transport people through time. For example, in the episode where Sisko replaces Bell before the Bell Riots. Why didn't they go back in time after it had been done and Sisko had saved the past? They could go back and prevent the USS Defiant from the screw up with the transporters. Then time would go normally and Sisko wouldnt have to replace Bell.
Also the example you just gave, the episode Endgame. Why did they not go back in time to stop Janeway? Surely VOY meeting the other races helped save millions. Especially since VOY saved a species every friggin week. Surely they affected time by allowed her to return home early. Why didn't they stop her?
The Temporal Federation makes no sense honestly. I didn't like its inclusion. Not to mention, it makes time too...linear now. Everything that is meant to be done is done by the Federation. There is no mystery left. Will the Federation exist hundreds of years in the future? Or will they be overcome by...someone. I don't know. Now we know that they will be there in the 29th century. Great...
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:32 pm |
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And the 30th Century. But it's ENT that makes that clear. And TNG told us that they would exist in the 26th Century...When that guy "came from the future." When it wasn't really him, but he was from the past and took the ship from the guy who REALLY WAS from the future...don't remember the name.
But, ya, the future being susceptable to time incursions sounds very plausible to me, too.
I think the Temporal Federation is ok. I mean, it does kind of take away from some mystery, but at the same time, not alot of people are going to believe that another possible species is going to wipe out the Federation. (Not that it wouldn't be kind of cool to see with just enough people and/or ships left to drive off the intruders and re-establish the Federation.)
But, in any case, you can't entirely blame Voyager for the Temporal Federation, because it was going to be mentioned in ENT that there is something like it in the 30th Century. I don't remember the name of the episode, but it was in one of the first 2 seasons I think...but anyway, it's just that in Voyager we saw an actual temporal ship and not in ENT...anyway, it's not Voyager's fault, it's the producers if one wants to point a finger. Everybody blames the show, and it's not the shows fault.
Just like, "Voyager ruined the Borg..." No it didn't , that's exactly how the producers and such wanted it to be. Blah blah blah...  Anyway, I'm just babbling now...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:24 pm |
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Yeah, the producers just went Borg crazy ever since First Contact did so well. I mean, the Borg are cool, I own First Contact too. It was the first Star Trek movie that I bought on DVD for the special edition.
I don't think I ever saw the Timeship Relativity episode so I don't remember that much about it except I remember seeing the previews for it, don't know why I wasn't able to watch it though...probably was because of school...damn school!
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:07 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | And the 30th Century. But it's ENT that makes that clear. And TNG told us that they would exist in the 26th Century...When that guy "came from the future." When it wasn't really him, but he was from the past and took the ship from the guy who REALLY WAS from the future...don't remember the name.
That guy from the 26th century had nothing to do with the temporal Federation, nor did the people he killed and stole the ship from.
But, ya, the future being susceptable to time incursions sounds very plausible to me, too.
I think the Temporal Federation is ok. I mean, it does kind of take away from some mystery, but at the same time, not alot of people are going to believe that another possible species is going to wipe out the Federation. (Not that it wouldn't be kind of cool to see with just enough people and/or ships left to drive off the intruders and re-establish the Federation.)
Why is that so hard to believe? The Borg and the Dominion nearly wiped out the Federaetion. The latter nearly wiped out the Fed, Romulan, and Klingon empire. Damn you S31 and the Prophets. 
But, in any case, you can't entirely blame Voyager for the Temporal Federation, because it was going to be mentioned in ENT that there is something like it in the 30th Century. I don't remember the name of the episode, but it was in one of the first 2 seasons I think...but anyway, it's just that in Voyager we saw an actual temporal ship and not in ENT...anyway, it's not Voyager's fault, it's the producers if one wants to point a finger. Everybody blames the show, and it's not the shows fault.
It was established in the VOY show and carried over to the ENT. Its easy to blame the producers, but the fact is it was on this show. I don't really hate ENT or VOY for it. I'm just saying their inclusion was stupid and used simply as a plot device that would hold no bearing later. I'll ask again, where was the Temporal Federation during all the other millions of time incursions?
Just like, "Voyager ruined the Borg..." No it didn't , that's exactly how the producers and such wanted it to be. Blah blah blah... Anyway, I'm just babbling now... |
Ok then. The producers of VOY ruined the Borg. Better? 
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:40 pm |
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Yes actually, it is better...But just remember, those SAME producers of Voyager produced your beloved DS9, so they're all one in the same...
And the Temporal Federation was included in the time incursions...you just answered your own question...
After all in "Future's End pt II" after they created a new incursion by killing "what's his face" that was trying to use the timeship, that created a new incursion. Then Braxton comes to get Voyager to the right century. Therefore, the 29th century says..."Hey, we have a 24th century ship in the wrong timeline...Hmm...looks like an accident, let's fix it." So they fix it...then Braxton himself said "I never experienced that timeline."
So depending on the severity of the incursion, the Temporal Federation cant' do a whole lot.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:49 pm |
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Except nothing was screwed up in DS9. DS9 had a few time travel episodes and the Temporal Federation was no where to be found.
As for the second part....huh?
The temporal federation was NOT included in the time incursions. Where were they during First Contact? Where were they when Sisko, Dax, and Bashir got stuck in the 21st century? Where were they when Kirk went back in time to take whales? The list goes on. Just because they were in what, two episodes of VOY, does not mean they were always there.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:50 pm |
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I'm not saying I have the answsers for those questions...b/c I have asked myself the same question about First Contact...
I just gave you an answer...and a decent one, I think...but it's not going to answer ALL of the questions... 
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 12:55 pm |
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To tell you the truth, I don't know what you answered. I don't see how them not remembering fixing the timeline has to do with anything. I mean it is an interesting observation. Maybe they need temporal records to see what they altered, because their minds can not comprehend it. I don't know.
My initial point is that the inclusion of the Temporal Federation was really stupid and filled with plot holes. Not to mention, the future is pretty much written. We now know for a fact that the Federation for centuries. No matter what. No matter what threat pops up. They'll win.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:02 pm |
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Well we knew they would win anyway...I mean, was there a doubt?
And it's not what THEY altered when they fixed a timeline, I was talking about Voyager created an incursion by killing "what's his name." So, the Temporal Federation couldn't have made a record, b/c all they saw was Voyager in the wrong century...
Eh, I answered a question, but I didn't...so shoot me...LOL...please don't, I like my life. haha...
But anyway...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:03 pm |
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Yeah all this time stuff is confusing.
Well what was cool was the mystery. We HOPED the Fed. would always win cause they are the good guys, but the fact we know its set in stone makes it....boring somewhat.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Feb 23, 2006 1:09 pm |
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Well, I actually understand time paradoxes and stuff...like the episode when Seven has to stop the future Braxton and stuff...and "Future's End..." I understand those...
But for giving an actual reason WHY the Temporal Fed. didn't interject with the above mentioned episodes and scenarios...I haven't a clue...just a fluke on Trek's part...but oh well, it's not like we can change it...
And I do have to agree...even though we KNEW the Federation would overcome and win, I do have to agree that, should they actually slightly wipe out the Federation and stuff, with obvious intentions to bring them back and overcome the force that took them out, then it kind of takes the mystery out...I do agree...
But I'm still fascinated with it anyway...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:56 am |
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To quote Janeway:
"I hate temporal mechanics."
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:31 am |
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I don't think I recall those being her exact words...ever.
I do know she hates it, but I don't recall those exact words leaving her mouth in the same sentence. But she does say something very similar...don't remember the episode or what it was, but I know she did...and you're close though.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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SirAnthony
Senior Cadet
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 20
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| Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:55 am |
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You can pick any time travel episode to pieces if you want. Whats improtant is if the writing is good and there is a suspension of disbelief. I loved all of voyagers TT episodes. Except the last year and a half of Voyager the writing was not so great. Endgame sucked. It didn't make sense. It did not suspend disbelief. That is why you want to pick it apart.
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Sat Feb 25, 2006 6:35 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | I don't think I recall those being her exact words...ever.
I do know she hates it, but I don't recall those exact words leaving her mouth in the same sentence. But she does say something very similar...don't remember the episode or what it was, but I know she did...and you're close though. |
Yeah I don't remember her actually saying something just like that but just that she didn't like temporal mechanics but yeah, I pretty much thought she would say something like that.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:25 pm |
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| SirAnthony wrote: | | You can pick any time travel episode to pieces if you want. Whats improtant is if the writing is good and there is a suspension of disbelief. I loved all of voyagers TT episodes. Except the last year and a half of Voyager the writing was not so great. Endgame sucked. It didn't make sense. It did not suspend disbelief. That is why you want to pick it apart. |
The 7th season was good. Not the best writing, but it was all still good.
And what is NOT to get about Endgame? It makes perfect sense. How do you not get it? It was a GREAT episode! Very well written!
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:58 pm |
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When I watched Endgame, I started crying. Mostly because the only ST series that was on at the time had ended. Didn't know about ENT though. Felt like an idiot afterwards.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:53 pm |
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Haha...it's cool.
ENT Sucked...LOL...Oops...wrong area for that post! haha...J/K...
BOT...my bad...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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SirAnthony
Senior Cadet
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 20
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| Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:16 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | SirAnthony wrote: | | You can pick any time travel episode to pieces if you want. Whats improtant is if the writing is good and there is a suspension of disbelief. I loved all of voyagers TT episodes. Except the last year and a half of Voyager the writing was not so great. Endgame sucked. It didn't make sense. It did not suspend disbelief. That is why you want to pick it apart. |
The 7th season was good. Not the best writing, but it was all still good.
And what is NOT to get about Endgame? It makes perfect sense. How do you not get it? It was a GREAT episode! Very well written! |
Maybe saying it didn't make sence was a poor chioce of words. I just didn't buy it. They played the borg card one too many times. I didn't think the Janeway, Tuvok in the future storyline worked. I thought the Tuvok part was badly acted. The biggest thing that bugged me was how Voyager apeared from the warp conduit right there in front of earth. That would mean the borg could have dropped in as many cubes as they wanted on earth at any time. The whole thing just didn't work for me and felt anti climatic.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:57 am |
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| SirAnthony wrote: | | Voyager2004 wrote: | | SirAnthony wrote: | | You can pick any time travel episode to pieces if you want. Whats improtant is if the writing is good and there is a suspension of disbelief. I loved all of voyagers TT episodes. Except the last year and a half of Voyager the writing was not so great. Endgame sucked. It didn't make sense. It did not suspend disbelief. That is why you want to pick it apart. |
The 7th season was good. Not the best writing, but it was all still good.
And what is NOT to get about Endgame? It makes perfect sense. How do you not get it? It was a GREAT episode! Very well written! |
Maybe saying it didn't make sence was a poor chioce of words. I just didn't buy it. They played the borg card one too many times. I didn't think the Janeway, Tuvok in the future storyline worked. I thought the Tuvok part was badly acted. The biggest thing that bugged me was how Voyager apeared from the warp conduit right there in front of earth. That would mean the borg could have dropped in as many cubes as they wanted on earth at any time. The whole thing just didn't work for me and felt anti climatic. |
The Tuvok scene in the future was bad acting...it was fine. He was confused an portrayed it very well. Now, the writing should have gone more in depth about when Janeway left...I think it was just to lead the Doctor to go to to Barcley, but they should have gone more in depth on why he went mad when Janeway did her traveling.
Eh, maybe Voyager did play the Borg card one too many times...but it still worked fine.
And the conduit wasn't right on earth's door-step. Starfleet said it was just under a light year away...that's still approximately 3 hours (give or take an hour) at maximum warp for most ships. And the Borg may want to get rid of humanity, yes, but that's also not their top goal. Their top goal is perfection. And if they can find a species better capable of taking out the Federation, the Borg will then assimilate them and then use that technology to wipe out earth. After all, we have always defeated them, so what would make them so confident to do that? But like I said, that's not their PRIMARY goal.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Solitary Poet
Captain
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 805
Location: Lancaster (Dallas), Texas
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StarfleetCommand74656
Captain
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 653
Location: On STV
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| Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:50 pm |
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Dont know which was best but amything Timeships good
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:26 pm |
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| Solitary Poet wrote: | | �Endgame� was a good movie. It was sad that Duncan had to kill Conner (his best friend) though. |
Well, that's a spoiler, thankgoodness I have seen it already
Also, they are actually refering to the Voyager EPISODE. (Get's confusing at times, I know)
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:29 pm |
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| Lord Borg wrote: | | Solitary Poet wrote: | | �Endgame� was a good movie. It was sad that Duncan had to kill Conner (his best friend) though. |
Well, that's a spoiler, thankgoodness I have seen it already
Also, they are actually refering to the Voyager EPISODE. (Get's confusing at times, I know) |
Oh...I was wondering what he was talking about! LOL...I haven't seen that...and I didn't know he was referring to a movie...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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