| Author |
Message |
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
 Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:34 pm |
|
Well, lets say that someone has cancer, they're given two months to live, and during that time they're going to be in such extreme pain that they'll have to be placed on morphine - as often happens. In this case, they won't be consious most of the time, and when they are they'll be suffering immensly. Should they be forced to live through that for the entire two months? Two months doesn't seem like a long time, but if you're in extreme pain it would seem like an eternity.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:41 pm |
|
The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in acceptable if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. However, if your intention is to overdose them resulting in immediate death, no, that's not ok.
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:46 pm |
|
I'm not saying that the morphine would be shortening their life or anything,  Just asking whether or not it's right to force somebody to go through that. Sorry if I confused yoooou.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:52 pm |
|
So you are saying that they only have two months, and they will be suffering, let's end it now?
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:55 pm |
|
And barely conscious. Their death is inevitable, and they won't be able to communicate. I wouldn't want to live through that personally, if I knew what was coming.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:57 pm |
|
You cannot directly end their life. You cannot kill them, and that's that.
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:58 pm |
|
K, thanks.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:10 am |
|
Not to mention it kind of violates the hippocratic oath doesn't it? If they have the cure, but it will take two months to make.
|
|
|
PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:11 am |
|
| Puck wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | But what if, say, a cure is developed a week or a month or a year after the euthanised death? What then? |
What if the patient is in constant agony and suffering would they really want to wait a year? To ignore the patients wishes for a quick death would be worse than a possibility of life after a year of agony. More so if the patient is in senor years which is more the case.
This is what we do when our animals get really sick. No one complains about that. |
Passive euthanasia, by simply taking someone off of any overcomplicated or extraordinary, and accepting that it's their time is fine. Because, in that case, you aren't intending to kill, but simply accepting death.
However, direct euthanasia to end suffering is unacceptable. If a person can live by themselves without being on life support, or some sort of huge compilation of extreme medicene, then that isn't ok. You can't just kill someone because they are suffering. I am not sure to what extent you are talking about, so if I am taking this wrong, please tell me.
And we do it to our pets...? You cannot compare a human life to that of a dog. I would hope that we would value how sacred human life is compared to that of a dog. |
Perhaps you would like to tell us why it is so wrong. The fact we do it to our pets makes it a humane act, not a crewl act. Sure human life is more valued, but thats not reason enough to let them suffer. I should also make it clear that the act of direct euthanasia should only be done by the euthanasia-er by clear permission of the euthanasia-ee with close family members approval.
What I think is wrong is your thinking an induvidual in extreme suffering doesn't have a right to end their own life if they wish to... It's like your ideal is to force them to live because there might be a chance their condition will improve when really you have no idea what their health condition is.. ?
Last edited by PrankishSmart on Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:15 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:14 am |
|
| Founder wrote: | | Not to mention it kind of violates the hippocratic oath doesn't it? If they have the cure, but it will take two months to make. |
A cure for cancer in two months? I wish.
Couldn't you argue that by not doing anything, you're doing just as much harm?
And the hippocratic oath also includes that a doctor will never induce an abortion. I suppose in a perfect world every M.D. would be bound by the oath, but nobody is.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:15 am |
|
Hey, in Florida you're not allowed to euthanise your pet dog, actually. However they WERE able to kill Terri Shiavo--whom we DO NOT KNOW what her wishes were. Interesting factoid there.
Oh, and btw. The Shiavo case really fits here. I mean, think about it. If the husband says that his vegetable wife wanted to die in such a situation (when he has alterior motives, although that's beside the point), and yet her parents and other family members disagree, and there is no written will, would you not agree that we should aire on the side of life?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
nadia
cookie
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 8560
Location: Australia
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:20 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | | vegetable wife |
Well you're nice arn't you?!
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:21 am |
|
| nadia wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | vegetable wife |
Well you're nice arn't you?! |
Forgive the one-word post, but huh?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:21 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | Hey, in Florida you're not allowed to euthanise your pet dog, actually. However they WERE able to kill Terri Shiavo--whom we DO NOT KNOW what her wishes were. Interesting factoid there.
Oh, and btw. The Shiavo case really fits here. I mean, think about it. If the husband says that his vegetable wife wanted to die in such a situation (when he has alterior motives, although that's beside the point), and yet her parents and other family members disagree, and there is no written will, would you not agree that we should aire on the side of life? |
I'm not aware of that case but I believe the first choice is the person him/her self. Then, family members next (mother, father). Husband/wife next. I think though each seperate case is different and quite difficult to really judge, although in that case yes perhaps leaning towards life. The vegetable wife was in pain constantly or not?
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:22 am |
|
| nadia wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | vegetable wife |
Well you're nice arn't you?! |
And that's spam. Don't post if you aren't going to add to the discussion.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:26 am |
|
| PrankishSmart wrote: | | The vegetable wife was in pain constantly or not? |
Terri Shiavo wasn't in pain, from what I recall, until she was deprived of food and water. I think I see what nadia meant, though.
I wasn't being mean. By vegetable I meant brain damaged, what Terri Shiavo, it seems, in fact, was, and I was making a statement with regards to such a scenerio. It was not an insult or anything.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:34 am |
|
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | Not to mention it kind of violates the hippocratic oath doesn't it? If they have the cure, but it will take two months to make. |
A cure for cancer in two months? I wish.
Couldn't you argue that by not doing anything, you're doing just as much harm?
And the hippocratic oath also includes that a doctor will never induce an abortion. I suppose in a perfect world every M.D. would be bound by the oath, but nobody is. |
I was a hypothetical example with the cure.
No not really. Because if you put them under sedation or pain killers, then they wouldn't be suffering, not much at least.
I agree about the abortion. Which is why I think Federation doctors would say "screw pro-choice", because no matter which way you cut it, you're still killing.
True about the oath though. Not everyone goes by it.
Also if no cure IS in sight, they may take up your point of view and feel death is the "peaceful" thing to do. Which it may very well be.
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:44 am |
|
K. According to that little story it's cancer, and there unfortunately isn't any cure in sight. That's why I was slightly confused,
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
|
| Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:32 am |
|
Shiavo was a sad case......and I think it was wrong of them to deprive her of food for so long. Period.
|
|
|
Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
|
| Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:59 am |
|
Since this question directly asks for your opinion, and my morals, etc... are what would guide the formation of said opinion, I think both are wrong.
Nothing in life is a 100% guarantee.
I know a lady, Rhonda Ackerson, who was diagnosed with leukemia, she was told she'd be dead in six months. I think this was six or seven years ago? She was in considerable, and I mean A LOT of pain at times, but suicide, etc... was never an option. Today, the doctors can find no trace of the cancer. I'm sure this is an exception, but it does make the "nothing is 100% certain" statement a bit more valid, no?
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
|
|
|
webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
|
| Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:57 pm |
|
| Theresa wrote: |
Nothing in life is a 100% guarantee.
|
How about death?
-------signature-------
"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
|
|
|
Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
|
| Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:59 pm |
|
Nah. Ever hear of Elijah? Buuuuuuut, we won't go there, because then we'll have to start yet another religious debate, which I find totally useless, 
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
|
|
|
Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
|
| Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:50 pm |
|
| Theresa wrote: | | Nah. Ever hear of Elijah? Buuuuuuut, we won't go there, because then we'll have to start yet another religious debate, which I find totally useless, |
Thank you for your opinion, T. I value your input greatly!
Note: I'm not suicidal, that's not why I started this topic. So...just a disclaimer about my reasons for doing such. I simply am curious to get a general idea of the public opinion. It's very important to me.
Thanks everyone!
|
|
|
charlie
American Soldier
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 598
Location: In The United States
|
| Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:10 am |
|
I have heard of Elijah and have read it numerous times. I don't think sucide is not the way to go for sucidal people. If they would reach out to someone or anyone. And, for the medical stuff go for euthansia, it is best to let nature take it course and not force it along. There may be suffering and that is apart of life.
|
|
|
LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
|
| Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:34 pm |
|
This is an excerpt from the song "The Pass" by Rush.
| Quote: | Proud swagger out of the schoolyard
Waiting for the world’s applause
Rebel without a conscience
Martyr without a cause
Static on your frequency
Electrical storm in your veins
Raging at unreachable glory
Straining at invisible chains
And now you’re trembling on a rocky ledge
Staring down into a heartless sea
Can’t face life on a razor’s edge
Nothing’s what you thought it would be
All of us get lost in the darkness
Dreamers learn to steer by the stars
All of us do time in the gutter
Dreamers turn to look at the cars
Turn around and turn around and turn around
Turn around and walk the razor’s edge
Don’t turn your back
And slam the door on me.
It’s not as if this barricade
Blocks the only road
It’s not as if you’re all alone
In wanting to explode
Someone set a bad example
Made surrender seem all right
The act of a noble warrior
Who lost the will to fight
And now you’re trembling on a rocky ledge
Staring down into a heartless sea
Done with life on a razor’s edge
Nothing’s what you thought it would be
No hero in your tragedy
No daring in your escape
No salutes for your surrender
Nothing noble in your fate
Christ, what have you done?
Turn around and walk the razor’s edge
Turn around and walk the razor’s edge
Turn around and walk the razor’s edge
Don’t turn your back
And slam the door on me. |
I often listen to this song when i'm down. It's about facing life, and how suicide is never the answer. I thought it was especially key here.
|
|
|
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
