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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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 Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:47 am |
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And I didn't realize that murdering oneself qualified as a liberty, or that it still doesn't violate the right to life (not to die) or the pursuit of happiness (killing yourself won't achieve happiness, necessarily  ). I mean, in Health class we were always taught that it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and that's how it should still be treated--not encouraged.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:31 am |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Suicide is usually the result of mental illness and a form of euthanasia. All you people who say it is a cowardly and self centered act, and should seek help, really have no clue what their going through and no clue how to help one who is on the verge of suicide. |
Suicide caused by mental illness is an entirely different issue. In that case, the person isn't in control of his/her actions. However, some people simply do it to escape their problems. Such as people who have committed crimes or who are drug addicts, etc. For example, that Enron executive. |
You can't tell me those people don't have something wrong going on upstairs. They would have to be majorly bent mentally to go through with suicide.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:27 am |
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I think it's rather hilarious that people want to make suicide illegal. It...doesn't...do anything. If you want to kill yourself, why would you be worried about what the courts think of you afterwards? The only people it would effect are the people who fail in the attempt. Should they get help? Well, probably. But is it right to put breaking the law on their record because they happened to be in a situation where they hated life and wanted out? Why should it be "illegal" to leave this life when you feel like it? PUT LOCKS ON THEM PEARLY GATES, WE'RE NOT DONE WITH YOU YET!
Further...if killing yourself is illegal, should cutting yourself be illegal? In the logical extension, it would seem so...
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:15 pm |
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I Agree, I think its stupid to make scuicide illegal.
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
Posts: 1446
Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:33 pm |
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Here's the problem with suicide.
Say, you jump off a bridge, land just right, and barely survive in a vegitative state. Now what? The taxpayers are paying fr your recovery and to sustain you. I say if you're going to kill yourself, you're an idiot, but hey, just get over with. A gunshot to the head usually never fails. (but do it in a bathtub so you don't stain the carpet.)
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:15 pm |
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Maybe some people don't care if they use the tax payers money. They rather kill themselves instead of using their brains and get help. sorry no offense. If I was going to kill myself, I would think before cause I would rather get help.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:23 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | You can't tell me those people don't have something wrong going on upstairs. They would have to be majorly bent mentally to go through with suicide. |
From an outside perspective, maybe. Not everybody who attempts suicide is placed in a mental institution, or anything like that. But I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't exactly have all the qualifications to judge somebody as insane or not.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:47 pm |
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I don't think suicide should be illegal, as it can't really be enforced, as Exalya said, but at the same time I don't think we should legalize it or encourage it in ANY way.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:31 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | And I didn't realize that murdering oneself qualified as a liberty, or that it still doesn't violate the right to life (not to die) or the pursuit of happiness (killing yourself won't achieve happiness, necessarily ). I mean, in Health class we were always taught that it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and that's how it should still be treated--not encouraged. |
Don't life and death go hand in hand though??
When you say life (not to die), what you're implying is the justification of Euthanasia is invalid and immoral. So are you talking about suicide by one's own hand here?? Or are you talking about Euthanasia?
Suicide itself is, I agree, a permanent solution for a temporary problem.
However, with regard to Euthanasia....I view things differently. No living will and I'm lying on a hospital, hooked up to all sorts of machinery to keep me breathing? What kind of quality of life can I be expected to have under those conditions? I may be alive, but I'm sure as Hell not living and I wouldn't want my family to have to see me in that state for any prolonged amount of time. Not to mention the cost of all of that to those I love could destabilize them financially when there's little or no hope of my recovering.
By the way, RM, I said that illegalizing suicide is futile because it can't be effectively enforced. If Exalya mentioned that, then we are in agreement and I'm so HAPPY!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:08 pm |
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I was talking about suicide there, not euthanasia. But yeah, we're in agreement on that point.
And I disagree with you on euthanasia. Being tied to life-support machines is better than death. But I'm not really in the mood for debating this topic right now, so I can't give a greater response.
Puck, on euthanasia specifically, what do you think?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:23 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | I was talking about suicide there, not euthanasia. But yeah, we're in agreement on that point.
And I disagree with you on euthanasia. Being tied to life-support machines is better than death. But I'm not really in the mood for debating this topic right now, so I can't give a greater response.
Puck, on euthanasia specifically, what do you think? |
How can you even think about being kept alive with no hope of seeing your children grow up and get married, start families of their own??
I can't believe you'd rather not just pass on....there's a better place, for those who have faith.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:24 pm |
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I think that if death is imminent, than refusing any extraordinary means, can be acceptable, seeing that the person, or their spouse is merely accepting that they are unable to prevent death.
So, basically, if it is direct (and probably immediate)death to end suffering, then I am not for it. However, if it is the refusal of extraordinary means to maintain a persons heart beat, or something of the such, here, since someone is not aiming at causing death, but simply accepting it as inevitable, I feel that would probably be ok. Naturally though, every circumstance will have its own intricate details that must be examined before a decision could be made.
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:32 pm |
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Murder is illegal.
Suicide is murder.
Ergo, suicide is illegal.
Pretty simple math.
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AndrewBullock
The Misguided One
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 2112
Location: Kentucky. (North America)
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:12 pm |
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Oh the wonders of the world  
If they make suicide illegal that would be extreamly stupid. What are they going to do? Arrest the other family members? Take all their money? Ban them? Serriously... it's honestly not the way to go. People just go their own ways. If someone is suicidal it obviously shows they have problems... try to help them. It's the best a human could do, ya know?
Thank you,
~Andrew
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:59 pm |
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| webtaz99 wrote: | Murder is illegal.
Suicide is murder.
Ergo, suicide is illegal.
Pretty simple math. |
However, there is a flaw in your math. A murderer will usually live to be delt the punishment. Someone who commits suicide will not.
| Puck wrote: |
No, laws are to protect an individuals rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. They are to maintain social well-being, preserve national unity, and to uphold human dignity. That is what laws are for. |
Well being and unity I will agree with. But nowhere in the Constitution is it written that our laws are there to uphold human dignity. The point of laws is to maintain a balance between Freedom and Order. Too much Freedom, you loose order (protests, violence, etc.). Too much Order and you loose too much Freedom and people become very unhappy.
Most major issues presented in courts and society are ones where the outcome is very difficult to predict and they don't want to risk either Freedom or Order. Usually what happens there is one state kind of tests the water for public reaction. If it's strong for or against they go for whatever will satisfy the people as a whole. If the reactions are strong and divided, they wait until people either come to a consensus or the courts decide what is best based on the Constitution.
That's why this is such a difficult topic. Legally there is really no case for or against suicide - and why it will probably never be brought before a court. However, Euthinasia is something that is much more 'hot'. Especially considering the events of the past year. Is it inhumane? Is it medically reasonable? Will people be outraged if we legalize/illegalize it? Will the uproar settle down? Will it make matters better or worse? What are the pros and cons of legalizing/illegalizing it?
Those are the questions and issues faced with Euthinasia legally. Not morally or emotionally, but legally.
I hope that mades sense...
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Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 1:48 am |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | webtaz99 wrote: | Murder is illegal.
Suicide is murder.
Ergo, suicide is illegal.
Pretty simple math. |
However, there is a flaw in your math. A murderer will usually live to be delt the punishment. Someone who commits suicide will not.
| Puck wrote: |
No, laws are to protect an individuals rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. They are to maintain social well-being, preserve national unity, and to uphold human dignity. That is what laws are for. |
Well being and unity I will agree with. But nowhere in the Constitution is it written that our laws are there to uphold human dignity. The point of laws is to maintain a balance between Freedom and Order. Too much Freedom, you loose order (protests, violence, etc.). Too much Order and you loose too much Freedom and people become very unhappy.
Most major issues presented in courts and society are ones where the outcome is very difficult to predict and they don't want to risk either Freedom or Order. Usually what happens there is one state kind of tests the water for public reaction. If it's strong for or against they go for whatever will satisfy the people as a whole. If the reactions are strong and divided, they wait until people either come to a consensus or the courts decide what is best based on the Constitution.
That's why this is such a difficult topic. Legally there is really no case for or against suicide - and why it will probably never be brought before a court. However, Euthinasia is something that is much more 'hot'. Especially considering the events of the past year. Is it inhumane? Is it medically reasonable? Will people be outraged if we legalize/illegalize it? Will the uproar settle down? Will it make matters better or worse? What are the pros and cons of legalizing/illegalizing it?
Those are the questions and issues faced with Euthinasia legally. Not morally or emotionally, but legally.
I hope that mades sense... |
You made a clear point there, TM. And I do agree with it! Thank you for sharing your viewpoint on this!
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:59 pm |
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| AndrewBullock wrote: | Oh the wonders of the world
If they make suicide illegal that would be extreamly stupid. What are they going to do? Arrest the other family members? Take all their money? Ban them? Serriously... it's honestly not the way to go. People just go their own ways. If someone is suicidal it obviously shows they have problems... try to help them. It's the best a human could do, ya know?
Thank you,
~Andrew |
Nope. What they'll do is arrest the person's ghost 
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 5901
Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:13 pm |
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Andrew is right, though....and I'm so glad we're in agreement!
 RM.....
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webtaz99
Commodore
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 1229
Location: The Other Side
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:22 pm |
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Suicide is illegal for the same reason attempted murder is. It gives the police a legal "leg to stand on" in preventing either one.
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"History is made at night! Character is who you are in the dark." (Lord John Whorfin)
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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:55 pm |
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On suicide. Difficult subject. It should be illegal to discourage it but at the end of the day if someone wants to kill them selves they will. I just hope that if they decide that they do it so it doesn't harm any others.
On Euthanasia, it should be legal only for people who have been on life support for years and is brain dead with no hope for recovery. Plus it should be only allowed if 2+ doctors agree. It would have to be VERY VERY VERY strict rules and monitoring to ensure nothing goes wrong
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:02 pm |
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But what if, say, a cure is developed a week or a month or a year after the euthanised death? What then?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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CJ Cregg
Commodore
Joined: 05 Oct 2002
Posts: 1254
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:09 pm |
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a cure for being brain dead? If that happened we would all feel sad but there would be nothing we could do. I'd rather not live years on a life support machine. If im ever in that position i want to die.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:10 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | But what if, say, a cure is developed a week or a month or a year after the euthanised death? What then? |
What if the patient is in constant agony and suffering would they really want to wait a year? To ignore the patients wishes for a quick death would be worse than a possibility of life after a year of agony. More so if the patient is in senor years which is more the case.
This is what we do when our animals get really sick. No one complains about that.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:12 pm |
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| CJ Cregg wrote: | | a cure for being brain dead? If that happened we would all feel sad but there would be nothing we could do. I'd rather not live years on a life support machine. If im ever in that position i want to die. |
I agree. Same thing is if I would loose my arms and legs in a car crash or something I would rather end my life than live like a veggie.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:29 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | But what if, say, a cure is developed a week or a month or a year after the euthanised death? What then? |
What if the patient is in constant agony and suffering would they really want to wait a year? To ignore the patients wishes for a quick death would be worse than a possibility of life after a year of agony. More so if the patient is in senor years which is more the case.
This is what we do when our animals get really sick. No one complains about that. |
Passive euthanasia, by simply taking someone off of any overcomplicated or extraordinary, and accepting that it's their time is fine. Because, in that case, you aren't intending to kill, but simply accepting death.
However, direct euthanasia to end suffering is unacceptable. If a person can live by themselves without being on life support, or some sort of huge compilation of extreme medicene, then that isn't ok. You can't just kill someone because they are suffering. I am not sure to what extent you are talking about, so if I am taking this wrong, please tell me.
And we do it to our pets...? You cannot compare a human life to that of a dog. I would hope that we would value how sacred human life is compared to that of a dog.
Last edited by Puck on Sat Jan 07, 2006 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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