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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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 Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:12 am Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide |
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| Quote: | Did Jesus exist? Italian court to decide By Phil Stewart
Wed Jan 4, 10:28 PM ET
ROME (Reuters) - Forget the U.S. debate over intelligent design versus evolution.
An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago.
The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary school in their teenage years.
The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in court later this month.
"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.
Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona", or impersonation.
"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.
A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted, at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the case has enough merit to go forward.
"In my book, The Fable of Christ, I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.
Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and baffled as to why Cascioli -- who, like him, came from the town of Bagnoregio -- singled him out in his crusade against the Church.
"We're both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together. Then he took a different path and we didn't see each other anymore," Righi said.
"Since I'm a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now suing me because I 'trick' the people."
Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of Jesus, including historical texts.
He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.
"Cascioli says he didn't exist. And I said that he did," he said. "The judge will to decide if Christ exists or not."
Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.
"It would take a miracle to win," he joked. |
Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060105/od_uk_nm/oukoe_uk_religion_court
Last edited by Founder on Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:14 am |
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Wow.... this is like.. i am at a lost of words for this. It's stupid imo but i dont really know what eles to say....
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Birdy
Socialist
Joined: 20 Sep 2004
Posts: 13502
Location: Here.
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:07 am |
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Ok... This is.. really weird. They don't have like, really profound evidence, like bones or something, right? It's just what you believe. If you believe the Bible is real and true, than you believe that Jesus existed too.
Why prove it?
-------signature-------
Nosce te ipsum
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:10 am |
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I think people are just in denial and don't want to believe that Jesus did exist. Oh they in for a shocker one day when we all see him coming down when he returns. That would be the evidence. I can't wait for it to happen.  I know I would get bash for this but oh well.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 5335
Location: Hiding
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:09 pm |
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This is very...interesting. I'm not sure what I think of it. In my opinion Jesus Christ and God may not exist in any physical presance, but the effect they have had - real or not - on society is impossible to ignore.
One one hand the court has to follow the law and Righi seems to have a very well laid out plan while Cascioli has not presented his plan for rebuffing Righi.
But on the other hand, they face the serious possibility of public discrace from religious groups, however they also face ridicule from the scientific and law communities if they support the existance of Christ as a living person.
Very interesting...
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Monster
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 337
Location: The Great Plains
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:40 pm |
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| Birdy wrote: | Ok... This is.. really weird. They don't have like, really profound evidence, like bones or something, right? It's just what you believe. If you believe the Bible is real and true, than you believe that Jesus existed too.
Why prove it? |
I agree. You can't prove something that is based on faith.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:42 pm |
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How "Miracle on 34th St"... I sure wouldn't want to be the presiding judge.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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nadia
cookie
Joined: 08 Apr 2005
Posts: 8560
Location: Australia
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:41 am |
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A judge can't decide if Jesus was real. This makes me cranky!
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:53 pm |
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Just a couple of comments:
(Birdy) | Quote: | | They don't have like, really profound evidence, like bones or something, right? |
There is no PHYSICAL evidence of the existence of Jesus, such as a tomb, or bones. After all, how could there be bones? Jesus' body was gone from the tomb; he rose again and then ascended to Heaven, according to Christian belief. Whether you believe that Jesus was divine and really did conquer death, or whether you believe that his body was hidden by his followers in order to perpetuate the story, it's no surprise that there've been no claims to identify any bodily remains as belonging to Jesus.
It seems that, even among opponents of Jesus, who could have had no better way to disprove the beliefs of his followers than to produce his dead body, there was never a tradition of Jesus' bones or body being identified. If there had been, even a very slight one, you can be sure that rulers and other powerful people who, throughout history, would have benefited from the fall of the Christian religion (for example, think of the Bolshevik leaders of Russia, or the Emperor Diocletian of Rome), would have seized and expanded upon it instantly. But that never happened.
| Quote: | | If you believe the Bible is real and true, than you believe that Jesus existed too. |
Well, that's not necessarily true. Some people believe that Jesus was an actual historical figure, and that he was a very wise and compassionate man, who lived as a healer and teacher - but just as mortal as you and I. The reality of a totally human Jesus would be considered in the same way as any other historical figure. If, however, you believe that Jesus is divine, was sent by God to live among us, etc., that belief, of course, is based on faith, not physical proof.
(nadia) | Quote: | A judge can't decide if Jesus was real. This makes me cranky!
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Aww, don't get too cranky! No one should take this whole thing too literally - neither Cascioli nor anyone else actually believes that a judge's ruling, one way or another, would have any real meaning. Cascioli is pulling a publicity stunt - nothing more, nothing less. He, personally, may not believe that Jesus ever existed, given that he wrote a book on the subject, but he doesn't have the slightest expectation to get anything out of the lawsuit except alot of press, higher sales figures for his book, and to make a point of drawing attention to what he feels has been the oppression of the people by the Catholic Church. (Did you notice the grounds for his lawsuit? "Swindling," "impersonation," etc.) He's just drawing attention to his cause.
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:25 pm |
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Kind of makes me shrug. According to many historical texts, Jesus was alive and was known to be a teacher. The question of his divinity is entirely beside the point. Every text I've recieved in school claimed Jesus as a real person--not necessarily the son of God, but a person who existed and travelled around. As far as I knew that was proven. The significance to the ruling would resound mostly in education... my class on western civilization would've had a different tint if they said the Christian movement was based on the myth of a man who never even lived, rather than based on a man who lived and preached what he believed about God. Jesus, in the text I've been presented, was taught to be as real as Muhammad was. I consider myself a Christian, but I have no interest in proving that the prophet of Islam never existed--I can accept that he did. Shouldn't there be a lawsuit about him, and further, about Zoroaster, too, if they really want to get down to it?
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:53 pm |
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Ooops - I meant to say, also, that there is reliable historical evidence that Jesus DID exist: for example, references in official documents and records of the time, produced by people who had no interest or stock in Jesus or the events of his life, in any other sense than that of "reporting the news," just one rather small incident among many. Mention by disinterested parties of the same time period is considered to be one pretty good indication of proof of existance, in general, by historians.
Most scholars agree that Jesus did exist; his nature and what he was, however, are open to interpretation.
And, Exalya, I disagree - IF the court ruled that Jesus didn't exist, which is extremely unlikely, it would have absolutely no effect upon education, or upon law, or anywhere else outside that one little courtroom, at all. How could it?
Last edited by lex on Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:57 pm |
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Yeah, I was taught that it was proven as well--and not just the church, but in school. And by, more recently as well, my Jewish Human Geo teacher. His divinity is irrelivant here. This is just ridiculous. Going after the Catholic Church for teaching about Jesus!? This is what secularism is coming to in Europe! This is it!? For Christ's sake (pardon the pun). My goodness. What is this world coming to?
Was he alive? Yes. Was he a prominent figure when alive? Yes. Was he divine? That's up to you and your beliefs. I happen to believe he was divine, but--just, wow. Wow, wow, wow.
And I agree with Exalya in her statements there.
Yeah, I don't dispute the existance of anyone in the Bible, because they were alive. As was Muhammed and all those people. This is just ridiculous.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Arellia
The Quiet One
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 4425
Location: Dallas, TX
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:06 pm |
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| lex wrote: | Ooops - I meant to say, also, that there is reliable historical evidence that Jesus DID exist: for example, references in official documents and records of the time, produced by people who had no interest or stock in Jesus or the events of his life, in any other sense than that of "reporting the news," just one rather small incident among many. Mention by disinterested parties of the same time period is considered to be one pretty good indication of proof of existance, in general, by historians.
Most scholars agree that Jesus did exist; his nature and what he was, however, are open to interpretation.
And, Exalya, I disagree - IF the court ruled that Jesus didn't exist, which is extremely unlikely, it would have absolutely no effect upon education, or upon law, or anywhere else outside that one little courtroom, at all. How could it? |
If a court ruled that Jesus didn't exist, then people would have grounds to sue for any textbooks that claimed he did and could then, further, remove those claims from the textbook. And yeah, it's true--this guy is playing against a great deal of historical evidence, so it's very unlikely that he'll win. I was just making an if.
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lex
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 226
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| Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:17 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Going after the Catholic Church for teaching about Jesus!? This is what secularism is coming to in Europe! |
RM, I think you're mistaken if you're looking at this guy as a representative of secularism in Europe, or a serious theologian, or a reputable historian. This guy wants to sell books, and he knows just how much press coverage this lawsuit will get him. He also appears to resent what he sees as the Catholic Church's exploitation of the people, and wants to draw attention to his cause - he doesn't expect to win, just to make a point. This is a publicity stunt.
It is generally agreed, by Christians and non-Christians, by scholars, historians, and theogians, that Jesus DID exist. Cascioli has just come up with one more crackpot theory, in a long line of crackpot theories ("Aliens built the pyramids," "America was founded by descendents of survivors from the lost Atlantis," "the Holocaust never occurred," etc.), and shouldn't get anyone too outraged or too worried about it being taken seriously.
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