Boston - "Holiday" Tree stirs Controversy

Republican_Man · **Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:12 pm**

Check out the video footage on www.foxnews.com. Scroll down on the left side of the pop-up to "The O'Reilly Factor" and check out the Talking Points Memo and War on Christmas video links that show. I think O'Reilly is once again, on this issue, right-on.

EDIT: And continue to scroll down, as there are more segments on Christmas as well.

Leo Wyatt · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:32 am**

I hate repeating myself. If you non believers think that us Christians are just going to sit by and let you take Jesus out of Christmas, you are wrong. Christmas is the reason for the season meaning Jesus. Christians should not compromise with the athesist. We shouldn't give in and we should stand up for what we believe in. We are going to stand up and we will be heard. With God anything is possible and Christians need to take a stand on this. I am not being a scrooge.

When Christians start to compromise with things that is wrong, then we loose. And not do what Jesus would have wanted. Not trying to force so don't think I am.

Theresa · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:36 am**

lex · Lieutenant Commander Joined: 23 Dec 2004 Posts: 226

Deb, I think maybe you wouldn't have to repeat yourself, if you carefully reread what a number of posters have been saying. You would see that this debate is in no way about "taking Jesus out of Christmas," or even taking the "Christian" out of Christmas.

Try looking at it this way (not so that you necessarily have to AGREE with what they're saying, but so that you can get a better understanding of what they mean):

First of all, in a "private" (as opposed to public [govt]) context ... well, if you're addressing people who you know to be Christians, by all means, wish them a merry Christmas. If you're addressing a group, made up of people whose individual religious beliefs are unknown to you, it's appropriate to say "Happy holidays." This in NO way denigrates or belittles any of the religious beliefs involved; it's just a way of including everybody in your greeting - comparable, for instance, to beginning a speech with "Good morning, people," instead of "Good morning, gentlemen," if there are women in the audience, too.

Businesses that now say "Happy Holidays," or use holiday decorations instead of Christmas ones are doing that for more than one reason. As with the rest of society, the consciousness of the business world has been raised to realize that nonChristians are a part of society, too, and can be included in the season's greetings. And, of course, businesses are ever mindful of making money - why should they not make efforts to attract all people to their products? It's a marketing issue for them, too!

In the public context - from town to federal level - it's a different story. The government has a responsibility and an obligation to separate itself from affiliating itself with or endorsing any religion. We have to keep "church and State" separate here in the USA. So, a town government that sponsors a Nativity display in the center, or a city gov't that erects a "Christmas" tree in the plaza, is effectively affiliating itself with Christianity. (You may object that this is an American tradition; well, that may be so. But it's a tradition based on nonrepresentation, of nonacknowledgement, of a number of our citizens. If a private entity wants to continue such a tradition, that's up to them. The government has a duty not to.)

I think, in the case of public "holiday" trees, alot of the awkwardness comes from continuing to use a decorated pine while changing the name. Of course, it's a Christmas tree. But, if it 's a tree erected by the city, for instance, they should change the name, because they're not supposed to endorse one religion over the other. The solution would be, I suppose, to scratch the tree altogether, and come up with something completely new that could be called a "Holiday Whatever." The trees are so pretty, though, and it would be hard to come up with something else.

Leo Wyatt · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:18 pm**

I understand what you are saying. you the first person who was calm about it anyway. but anyhow. I was not trying to repeat myself. I hate doing it and I do read.

But, I am not going to say Happy Holiday to anyone. They will get a Merry Christmas plain as simple. I won't compromise with other religions when they don't compromise with the christians. well at least I said one thing new... but I will let charlie take up the debate, he won't be able to post til Monday. But, ain't no use in talking in this topic. everyone knows where I stand.

It is about taking Jesus out. to make other religions happy.

Founder · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:11 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 5:29 pm**

I don't see how anybody is singularing out Christianity. There have been just as many movements against other religions in public, but the truth is that Christianity is the US' main religion so therefore there's simply more of it. 1 plus 1 still equals 2. For example, the whole ten commandments outside the courthouse issue a year or two ago. That was just as much a represtentaion of the Judaic faith, as of the Christian faith.

And what better way to argue than to use your opponent's own facts against them? Besides, everyone can accept the Bible (or at least some parts of it) as being a good moral code to live by, no matter what faith they are (or lack, thereof).

Republican_Man · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:54 pm**

First, for the record, I'm fine with stores saying Happy Holidays, so long as they include "Merry Christmas"--and Happy Chanukah and all that stuff. That's the way we should go, not shutting out the primary holiday of the season celebrated by 95% of America. I say in stores and the public square, recognize all holidays by having displays representing all the holidays of the season. That's fair and equal and tolerant and just. But don't just say Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings.

And ope! My Jewish Human Geo teacher said "Over Christmas Break" again! But wait--we're offending the minority with that! He must conform! How in the world could he say such a thing!?

IntrepidIsMe · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:59 pm**

I agree about representing all holidays, but wouldn't "Happy Holidays" be including all of that, anyway?

Republican_Man · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:02 pm**

It's too general a statement, and defeats the main reason for the season being so big. Rather than shutting them out, say them all. What's so hard about that? Nothing, that's what. Don't just say happy holidays. No.
And you know what I find funny is how these stores are shifting away from Christmas and yet the main reason that they get so much money this time of year is BECAUSE of Christmas!

IntrepidIsMe · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:04 pm**

So, the cashier is supposed to say "Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanzaa" etc.? That isn't exactly cost effective, whereas Happy Holidays is all inclusive.

Republican_Man · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:10 pm**

The Cashier should be allowed to say whatever he or she wants, so long as it is appropriate. If he/she wants to say "Merry Christmas" he should not be forbidden from doing so. If he or she wants to say "Happy Holidays," the same should apply. I'm talking about displays here.

IntrepidIsMe · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:13 pm**

Oh, I gathered you meant the cashier or somebody with customer interaction from the "I'm fine with stores saying Happy Holidays," etc. part.

Yeah, I think the cashier should simply say Happy Holidays, nobody is excluded, and everybody is included.

Republican_Man · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:20 pm**

IntrepidIsMe · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:23 pm**

Well, I don't agree with them being fired, unless it's stated somewhere when they applied that they can't say anything relating to a specific religious holiday. In which case, they should have known better, obviously.

Republican_Man · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:31 pm**

Theresa · **Wed Dec 14, 2005 7:48 pm**

lex · Lieutenant Commander Joined: 23 Dec 2004 Posts: 226