| Author |
Message |
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
 Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:29 am Boston - "Holiday" Tree stirs Controversy |
|
| Quote: | Falwell�s faithful put Hub on notice: Don�t diss Christmas
By Marie Szaniszlo
Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - Updated: 12:58 AM EST
Jerry Falwell and an army of conservative lawyers drew a line in the snow yesterday, warning Boston and other cities: Don�t mess with Christmas.
And even before the first volley was fired, City Hall caved.
Just after a top lawyer for the conservative Liberty Counsel blasted the Hub�s annual �holiday tree� ceremony, a Menino administration official scrambled to do damage control.
�This is a Christmas tree,� Boston Parks Commissioner Toni Pollak insisted about the Nova Scotia spruce the city will light Dec. 1 on historic Boston Common. �It�s definitely a Christmas tree.�
However, the city�s official Web site refers to the event as �Boston�s Official Holiday Tree Lighting.�
�Calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree isn�t being inclusive. It�s disenfranchising people of faith. It�s like calling a menorah a candle stick,� said Mathew Staver, Liberty Counsel�s president and general counsel.
Falwell, the powerful Evangelical Christian pastor, has put the power of his 24,000-member congregation behind the �Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign,� an effort led by the conservative legal organization Liberty Counsel. The group promises to file suit against anyone who spreads what it sees as misinformation about how Christmas can be celebrated in schools and public spaces.
If Falwell is looking to do battle in liberal Massachusetts, he�ll have plenty of opportunities. |
Okay, I think it's a little over the line to say that a "Holiday" Tree would "disenfranchise" people of Christian faith. I might be able to comprehend such an absurd notion if the abies balsamea had something to do with the Christian faith in any way, shape, or form. But the fact is.... it doesn't. Sure, tradition is good in some cases, but "Holiday Tree" includes the Christian faith just as much as any other.
And a menorah actually is a religious icon in the Jewish faith. So, if anything, Falwell is the one disenfrachising others.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:39 am |
|
It''s a Christmas tree. End of story. I disagree somewhat with Jerry, but I do think that it is part of this on-going assault on Christmas. It's always been a Christmas Tree and it IS a Christmas tree. It's not a holiday tree, and it's not doing any harm continuing to call it what it IS. It's RIDICULOUS. Holiday Tree my butt. It's a Christmas tree. Keep it that way. Don't change it. It's not harming anyone by keeping it that way. Political correctness is taking too much of a hold on this country. Stop the attack on Christmas, an AMERICAN TRADITION just as much as it's a religious holiday. It's just stupid, pitiful, wrong, and dump. It's a Christmas Tree, for Cripes' Sake! There's NO REASON to change it. It's not hurting anyone, and it's a minority that is offended. A one or two percent minority.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:45 am Re: Boston - "Holiday" Tree stirs Controversy |
|
| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | Okay, I think it's a little over the line to say that a "Holiday" Tree would "disenfranchise" people of Christian faith. I might be able to comprehend such an absurd notion if the abies balsamea had something to do with the Christian faith in any way, shape, or form. But the fact is.... it doesn't. Sure, tradition is good in some cases, but "Holiday Tree" includes the Christian faith just as much as any other.
And a menorah actually is a religious icon in the Jewish faith. So, if anything, Falwell is the one disenfrachising others. |
Thats a double standard isn't it? You "claim" that the Holiday tree is to encompass all Religions. When we all know the TRUTH is that Athiests hate anything Christian so they needed to ensure that Christmas is destroyed, at least the Christian aspect of it. So if the Jewish Menora is SOLEY Jewish, then it should be left alone. Athiests always complain about the "evil" decorations, oppressive Santa Claus, and tight rule of Christians in December. The only reason they changed the tree was to ensure that Christianity had even LESS of a place. There is no reason to turn into a HOLIDAY tree. It isn't part of any other custom. Its a Christian thing. Not to say, non-Christians can't have one. I think its great when anyone gets it, but I wish people wouldn't lie about it. The holiday tree is a STUPID idea.
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:51 am |
|
It doesn't really matter to me. Call it a Holiday Tree if you want, I mean, I don't see what's so bad about wanting to include all relgions in it. I still know what Christmas is to me, so yeah... name it whatever you want, I really don't see what the big deal is either way.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:55 am |
|
Secularist, politically correct, anti-Christmas activists claim to support tolerance, but in fact they're not promoting tolerance. They're promoting DISCRIMINATION against Christians, and it's wrong.
It's a CHRISTMAS Tree, for Christ's sake! (pardon the pun) It's NOT a Holiday Tree!
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:58 am |
|
Maybe they just want it so that it can include Jewish, Muslim, atheists, and Christians all in one word?
|
|
|
IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:59 am |
|
Ack, the horror!
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
|
|
|
Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:05 am |
|
| Puck wrote: | | Maybe they just want it so that it can include Jewish, Muslim, atheists, and Christians all in one word? |
Maybe some, but most of them, I am truly convinced, are going after it on their encompassing crusade against Christmas, and religion in general.
It's not hurting anyone calling it Christmas Tree. It's hurting Christians, however, because it's taking what's a Christmas icon and completely changing the name under the banner of "tolerance," when it's not. It's a CHRISTMAS TREE. If you don't celebrate Christmas, then just pass by it and ignore it, and don't get one at home. It's not a holiday tree. It's a Christmas tree.
And btw, I remember, now, that the mayor changed it back to Christmas Tree, if I'm not mistaken. And a similar thing is happening in cities accross the country, thank God. People are fighting back.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:06 am |
|
Keeping it a christmas tree is fine, if you then Bring out the Menorah, a Buddha State and a symbol for every other religion so you dont discriminate against them as well. Until then, it's a Holiday Tree.
Cristianity is not the only religion in the US and I dont care if people think it's the biggest. Yes this is a Roman Catholic saying this. The greatest lesson taught in the Bible is Tolerance. If people who claim to be christian dont realize that, and abide by it, then you have no right to call yourself christian.
-------signature-------
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." President Thomas Jefferson
"A man's respect for law and order exists in precise relationship to the size of his paycheck." Adam Clayton Powell Jr.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:07 am |
|
| Puck wrote: | | Maybe they just want it so that it can include Jewish, Muslim, atheists, and Christians all in one word? |
You don't really beleive that do you?
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:08 am |
|
Answer me this question: What holiday is it? What holiday is the tree for? And what two religions were predominantly in the US when we were founded, and influenced the founding fathers?
I'm fine with having a Menorrah there as well, and a symbol for Kwanza as well, because those are the holidays for the season. But for a Christmas Tree it's a Christmas Tree. Besides, the tree itself is a secular symbol. Just because it's called Christmas Tree doesn't mean it's religious and that it is offensive.
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:11 am |
|
| Founder wrote: | | Puck wrote: | | Maybe they just want it so that it can include Jewish, Muslim, atheists, and Christians all in one word? |
You don't really beleive that do you? |
Yes, I do believe that. I know alot of atheists, and I don't think that any of them are on a "Crusade against Christmas". I don't think that there is some huge atheist movement trying to destroy Christmas, and I think the idea of that is rather silly. Besides, aren't the real symbols of Christmas for Christians, the birth of Christ, and God's love for humanity? I really don't see how a tree is really uniquely Christian anyways, so yeah, who cares?
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:12 am |
|
| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | Keeping it a christmas tree is fine, if you then Bring out the Menorah, a Buddha State and a symbol for every other religion so you dont discriminate against them as well. Until then, it's a Holiday Tree.
Cristianity is not the only religion in the US and I dont care if people think it's the biggest. Yes this is a Roman Catholic saying this. The greatest lesson taught in the Bible is Tolerance. If people who claim to be christian dont realize that, and abide by it, then you have no right to call yourself christian. |
You should try doing this crazy thing and walk outside during Christmas...
Because guess what? You'll find TONS of other Religious stuff during that season.
Except Christmas trees, because nows its been turned into a "holiday tree". I'm sure its a coincedence that the CHRISTmas tree has to change, while nothing else changes.
BTW? You're being hypocritical. Its ok to leave all the other Religions untouched, but the CHRISTIAN one must change? NO.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:14 am |
|
It's a Christian tradition, and our country was very much founded in the Christian tradition. What's so frightening about acknowledging our heritage and continuing our tradition when it's hurting no one? Just because it's not a sectarian tradition doesn't mean that it should be changed? And that's the point--it's NOT sectarian, but it's a tradition fitting with Christmas and is a CHRISTMAS TREE. That's what it IS. A CHRISTMAS tree. Not to mention, it sounds funny to say "holiday tree" as well.
And it's not an atheist movement we're talking about. It's a SECULARIST movement. They don't always go hand-in-hand. I know athiests as well, and they damn well are fine with "Christmas lights" and "Christmas trees."
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:16 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | It's a Christian tradition, and our country was very much founded in the Christian tradition. This country was also founded so that there would be no state sponsored religion. What's so frightening about acknowledging our heritage and continuing our tradition when it's hurting no one? Just because it's not a sectarian tradition doesn't mean that it should be changed? And that's the point--it's NOT sectarian, but it's a tradition fitting with Christmas and is a CHRISTMAS TREE. That's what it IS. A CHRISTMAS tree. Not to mention, it sounds funny to say "holiday tree" as well.
And it's not an atheist movement we're talking about. It's a SECULARIST movement. They don't always go hand-in-hand. I know athiests as well, and they damn well are fine with "Christmas lights" and "Christmas trees." I was responding to when Founder said, 'When we all know the TRUTH is that Athiests hate anything Christian so they needed to ensure that Christmas is destroyed, at least the Christian aspect of it.' |
|
|
|
Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:22 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | Answer me this question: What holiday is it? What holiday is the tree for? And what two religions were predominantly in the US when we were founded, and influenced the founding fathers?
I'm fine with having a Menorrah there as well, and a symbol for Kwanza as well, because those are the holidays for the season. But for a Christmas Tree it's a Christmas Tree. Besides, the tree itself is a secular symbol. Just because it's called Christmas Tree doesn't mean it's religious and that it is offensive. |
You mean besides Quakerism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism, Methodism, Presbyterians, Baptists, Deism, Calvanism, Catholocism, etc, etc, etc.?
| Founder wrote: | | BTW? You're being hypocritical. Its ok to leave all the other Religions untouched, but the CHRISTIAN one must change? NO. |
Pot meet kettle, I think you'll find you have a lot in common.
-------signature-------
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." President Thomas Jefferson
"A man's respect for law and order exists in precise relationship to the size of his paycheck." Adam Clayton Powell Jr.
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:24 am |
|
| Puck wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | Puck wrote: | | Maybe they just want it so that it can include Jewish, Muslim, atheists, and Christians all in one word? |
You don't really beleive that do you? |
Yes, I do believe that. I know alot of atheists, and I don't think that any of them are on a "Crusade against Christmas". I don't think that there is some huge atheist movement trying to destroy Christmas, and I think the idea of that is rather silly. Besides, aren't the real symbols of Christmas for Christians, the birth of Christ, and God's love for humanity? I really don't see how a tree is really uniquely Christian anyways, so yeah, who cares? |
I know a lot of atheists too. Whats your point?
Thats nice you find it silly, I dont. Its serious to me.
No, a Christmas tree is part of Christmas. Its not the matter of "what is the most imporant symbol in Christianity". Its the fact that out of ALL the Religions, the one that HAS to change is Christmas. I'm sick of my Religion being forced into a closet because a picture of Santa Claus gives some people mental problems. This is ridiculous.
Its also daunting to see most of you all pertending that this makes sense. You know damn well that Christmas was singled out.
| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Pot meet kettle, I think you'll find you have a lot in common. |
So in other words, you have no rebuttle. Good, thats what I thought.
|
|
|
Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:27 am |
|
So . . . the idea is to promote a "melting pot" in which all cultures merge into the mainstream and lose any sense of diversity or uniqueness.
Yessssss . . . yesssssss . . . yessssss, I can see that.
That'd be ever so superior to a "mosaic" of cultural diversity in which all cultures flourish alongside each other and people are mellow enough that they don't worry so much about bumping elbows now and again. Pardon me for thinking otherwise.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:32 am |
|
Oh. Well, I would disagree with him and call them secularists (those attacking Christmas).
Here�s something for you to consider: 85% of the country is Christian. 90 to 95% of the country celebrates CHRISTMAS. Yes, even MORE than those that are Christians. Clearly a large amount of non-Christians celebrate Christmas, so what�s the harm?
And I think that as long as we recognize our inherent Judeo-Christian heritage, I�m fine with display other religious symbols for other holidays in a public place because it�s a PUBLIC PLACE. I�m fine with recognizing all religions, but if Christmas wasn�t going on at this time we wouldn�t HAVE a Christmas break. We wouldn�t HAVE a �holiday season.� We wouldn�t HAVE these big holiday sales (both literal definitions). We wouldn�t HAVE all the things associated with the �holidays.� And this attack on Christmas clearly shows an attack on our religious heritage--whether you want to deny it or not--and on Christianity and religion in general. Acknowledgement of that is fine and necessary (although, again, I'm not advocating a state religion).
And have you read the comments of George Washington and John Adams, for instance, on the destiny of our state and how it's in the "hands of God" or however they phrased it? I can find the quotes if you wish. They acknowledged our religious heritage and didn't intend for religion to be entirely out of government. That's not what the intention of the establishment clause was. You can interpret Jefferson's words "wall of separation" in a secular way if you really want, but that wasn't the intention and in numerous Supreme Court cases before the 1960s that was recognized and religion wasn't shut aside.
Heck, US Grant signed Christmas into law in 1870, recognizing our inherent Christian heritage! Shoving it out isn't right. Think of what this season would be like without Christmas, anyways. It's unimaginable.
And for stores to retroactively simply say "Seasons Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" on their walls with nothing else, when the majority of Americans are Christian, is discriminatory and wrong. Why can't they say "SGs" and "HHs" AND Merry Christmas AND Happy Hanakah AND Happy Kwanza?
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:33 am |
|
Well, personally for me, I find Christmas to be a time to celebrate God's love for humanity, and that it was so strong, He sent us His only son to be born into this world in human form. So yeah, during this time of year, I try to put more energy into reciprocating that love towards others, instead getting mad over people trying to include everyone by calling it a "Holiday Tree".
And so what if it was singled out, Christ said you would be persecuted for your beliefs, but to rejoice in that because it would make you closer to Him. Really though, no one is in any way preventing Christians from celebrating their faith though, I mean I still know what Christmas is for me, and that's all that really matters.
Last edited by Puck on Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:33 am |
|
| Founder wrote: |
So in other words, you have no rebuttle. Good, thats what I thought. |
No, I just find it funny that you're calling me Hypocritical when you yourself and the others are persecuting Athiests and others for their beliefs.
What I believe is unfair is that Fundemental Christianity is on the rise and it puts the minority like Athiests and Agnostics in a bad position where people like you can trample over what they want to believe just because you think you have the majority.
If you want examples, look in every religious debate topic that's been brought up in World News and Chit Chat, It ends up as "My belief is the majority and that's the only thing that counts" every time. there's no debate.
|
|
|
Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:34 am |
|
| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | Answer me this question: What holiday is it? What holiday is the tree for? And what two religions were predominantly in the US when we were founded, and influenced the founding fathers?
I'm fine with having a Menorrah there as well, and a symbol for Kwanza as well, because those are the holidays for the season. But for a Christmas Tree it's a Christmas Tree. Besides, the tree itself is a secular symbol. Just because it's called Christmas Tree doesn't mean it's religious and that it is offensive. |
You mean besides Quakerism, Protestantism, Evangelicalism, Methodism, Presbyterians, Baptists, Deism, Calvanism, Catholocism, etc, etc, etc.? |
All denominations of the same family. And it's the religious family that I'm talking about. (Religious family is a human geo term.)
-------signature-------
"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
|
|
|
Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:41 am |
|
| Puck wrote: | Well, personally for me, I find Christmas to be a time to celebrate God's love for humanity, and that it was so strong, He sent us His only son to be born into this world in human form. So yeah, during this time of year, I try to put more energy into reciprocating that love towards others, instead getting mad over people trying to include everyone by calling it a "Holiday Tree".
And so what if it was singled out, Christ said you would be persecuted for your beliefs, but to rejoice in that because it would make you closer to Him. Really though, no one is in any way preventing Christians from celebrating their faith though, I mean I still know what Christmas is for me, and that's all that really matters. |
I think thats great. I'm glad that you made a personal relationship with it and know how it stands for you.
I'm more mad of the discrimination. Not the ACTUAL thing being done, although the holiday tree is a REALLY dumb idea.
| Link, the Hero of Time wrote: | No, I just find it funny that you're calling me Hypocritical when you yourself and the others are persecuting Athiests and others for their beliefs.
How is calling a Christmas tree, a Christmas tree persecuting Athiests? The only people persecuting anyone are the Athiests. And I'm glad you exposed the truth behind this stupid change. Its because Athiests are the ones complaining.
What I believe is unfair is that Fundemental Christianity is on the rise and it puts the minority like Athiests and Agnostics in a bad position where people like you can trample over what they want to believe just because you think you have the majority.
People like me? You don't know me, so don't say stupid things like that ok? Good.
I've never discriminated against an Athiest. I don't care what they beleived, but I will damn care if they try and trample on MY beliefs. Understood? And I never ONCE said anything about having a majority. So do try and make sense the next time you post ok?
If you want examples, look in every religious debate topic that's been brought up in World News and Chit Chat, It ends up as "My belief is the majority and that's the only thing that counts" every time. there's no debate. |
What are you talking about? I never said anything about having the majority.
|
|
|
Link, the Hero of Time
Vice Admiral
Joined: 15 Sep 2001
Posts: 5581
Location: Kokori Forest, Hyrule
|
| Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:45 am |
|
| Republican_Man wrote: | All denominations of the same family. And it's the religious family that I'm talking about. (Religious family is a human geo term.)
|
No, no there not. No matter how much you want to say they are derived from the same religion, each has it's own path excluding themselves from the main religious Body. It's like Mormons, completely seperate set of beliefs.
FYI: Christmas was NOT the day Christ was born, It was a Roman holiday called Saturnalia, a Week long party of drinking and Celebration to the God Saturn. It was adopted into Christian belief later as an adaptation to bring in more "Pagans".
Hell, Even the tree was stolen from Saturnalia because the Romans used to cut down and decorate large Evergreen trees seeing as how Saturn was the god of farming and Evergreens lasted when crops and others didn't.
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Star Trek �, in all its various forms, are trademarks & copyrights of Paramount Pictures
This site has no official connection with Star Trek or Paramount Pictures
Site content/Site design elements owned by Morphy and is meant to only be an archive/Tribute to STV.com
|
Search
FAQ
Log in
