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IntrepidIsMe
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 Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:03 pm Ex-CIA boss: Cheney is 'vice president for torture' |
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| Quote: | Ex-CIA boss: Cheney is 'vice president for torture'
LONDON, England (CNN) -- Former CIA chief Stansfield Turner lashed out at Dick Cheney on Thursday, calling him a "vice president for torture" that is out of touch with the American people.
Turner's condemnation, delivered during an interview with Britain's ITV network, comes amid an effort by Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, to pass legislation forbidding any U.S. authority from torturing a prisoner. McCain was tortured as a Vietnam prisoner of war.
Cheney has lobbied against the legislation, prompting Turner to say he's "embarrassed that the United State has a vice president for torture. I think it is just reprehensible."
Turner, a retired Navy admiral who headed the intelligence agency under President Jimmy Carter from 1977 to 1981, stood firm on his earlier remarks Friday and, in a CNN interview, scoffed at assertions that challenging the administration's strategy aided the terrorists' propaganda efforts.
"It's the vice president who is out there advocating torture. He's the one who has made himself the vice president in favor of torture," said Turner, who from 1972 to 1974 was president of the Naval War College, a think tank for strategic and national security policy.
Cheney has fought McCain's legislation, pushing for an exception for the CIA in cases that involve a prisoner who may have knowledge of an imminent attack. (Read about McCain's anti-torture campaign)
Torture diminishes the country's image and moral stature, forcing other nations to look at the United States "in a very different light," Turner said, adding that such tactics also open the door to retribution.
"We military people don't want future military people who are taken prisoner by other countries to be subjected to torture in the name of doing just what the United States does," he said.
Turner, who supported Sen. John Kerry in the 2004 presidential election, went on to say that "the vice president is out of tune with the American people, who don't want our country tarred with the label of being one that tortures."
A statement from the vice president's office said that the United States "does not torture." It also stated that Cheney's views are "reflected in the administration's policy.
"Our country is at war, and our government has an obligation to protect the American people from a brutal enemy that has declared war upon us." (Watch special on Cheney's remarks over the years)
The United States has enacted several intrusive procedures since the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks to protect the country from terrorists, but torture, Turner said, is an unacceptable method.
"Torture is beyond the pale. It is going too far," he said. |
Source: CNN.com
I have to say I almost agree with him (Turner). I mean, if the VP Office says that the US doesn't torture, then why not just pass the bill? Not to mention, earlier on Cheney said that he'd support the bill.... as long as it didn't protect people who were held in the CIA's custody. Just weird.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:29 am |
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I really am ashamed that our Vice President would attempt to block this legislation. We are the United States, and we are supposed to be the country that people look to as a model. This whole torture thing though is just embarrassing, and disgraceful. I don't think we as Americans should allow anyone who represents us to allow torture. Hopefully this legislation will go through though, despite Cheney's lobbying against it.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:54 am |
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Apparently 56% of Americans believe that torture is appropriate when dealing with terrorists and information that could harm Americans 
Not that I'm condoning it, because that's far from it, but I'm just saying. And I'm not sure where I stand about Cheney here.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:57 am |
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Percentages should never overrule basic human ethics. That is not directed at you RM, but I am just saying in general. America's population has a history of being ethically wrong on certain issues sometimes, so I don't really think that matters.
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 1:58 am |
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I was just saying in terms of the opinions of the American people on this matter.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Cathexis
The Angel of Avalon
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
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Location: ~~ Where Dreams Have No End�
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:19 am |
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Shame on Cheney....shame shame......
I like that percentage, RM.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:27 am |
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May I ask why you "like" that percentage?
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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Cathexis
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:39 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | May I ask why you "like" that percentage? |
Let me clarify, I like how you added in a nifteh statistical fact . It helps. I don't like that that's the percentage of Americans who believe that torture is okay when dealing with terrorists, etc.
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:08 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | Apparently 56% of Americans believe that torture is appropriate when dealing with terrorists and information that could harm Americans
Not that I'm condoning it, because that's far from it, but I'm just saying. And I'm not sure where I stand about Cheney here. |
Hmmm, not according to this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/15/morton.torture/index.html
| Quote: | | And what do Americans think? In the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, 74 percent don't believe their president, and do believe the United States has tortured prisoners. Would they be willing to torture suspected terrorists if those prisoners knew details about future terrorist attacks against the United States? Thirty-eight percent said yes, they'd be willing. Fifty-six percent said no, they wouldn't. |
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:11 pm |
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That's what Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume reported, what I said. And considering how that's fair, with both conservatives and people like Al Gore praising Brit and his show for being fair, I trust it more than CNN.com--not that I support torture, however. I don't. Cohersive interrogation is fine, but down-right torture? No.
EDIT: That's unless I got them swapped, but I don't think I did.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:12 pm |
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Is CNN/USA Today/and Gallup. I seem to remember Gallup being the most credible poll source? 
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
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Republican_Man
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:18 pm |
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Remember my explanations? Unless there's a clear, huge majority, I don't trust polls. Even Gallup, even though the poll involved Gallup, but it also involved CNN. I haven't trusted polls really since prior to the election, even though I did say Gallup was the most credible at the time. All the polls put Bush behind Kerry and who won? Bush. I don't trust polls, but I was stating that because it shows that a large percentage of Americans are fine with torture of terrorists. The same can go the other way around.
My conclusion is that it's likely to be a fifty-fifty split or something, showing that a lot more Americans than one would think are actually fine with torturing these evildoers.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:32 pm |
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Well, I'll just trust the poll given, figuring there were three parties involved, meaning a larger majority could be reached. But, whatever floats your boat.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Lord Borg
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Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:26 am |
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I find it interesting that our leaders would do all sorts of things to someone if an american is tourtured becuase it is "wrong" but it's "OK" to tourture a non american...
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LightningBoy
Commodore
Joined: 09 Mar 2003
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Location: Minnesota, U.S.A.
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:34 am |
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You need to remember the main reason to be against this legislation is to make so that if there is an imminant danger, law enforcement can do what they have to do, no matter what it is, to SAVE LIVES, without worrying about red-tape.
I am fundamentally against torture, but if many lives were on the line, and time was of the essence, I can see myself defending torturous actions.
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:42 pm |
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And that doesn't mean that in ANY WAY we would be torturing an average person like Saddam, ya know? Someone who Saddam just didn't like or went against his rule? It would be for terrorists to SAVE LIVES, that's what. So there's a big difference there.
Not that, again, I'm for torture.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:19 pm |
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By torturing suspects for information, we wouldn't be any better than Hussein.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:23 pm |
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I don't think that even if we WERE torturing people it would be nearly as bad as Hussein. Now, I am disgruntled by this move by Vice-President Cheney, and I would really like to hear a good reason from him about this, but I would be inclined to believe that he has a good reason.
I think what he's concerned about is that a little bit of abuse would be considered torture, which is what I'm worried about as well. I think that a definition of torture with specific situations is necessary, and then should get passed if approrpiate.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:28 pm |
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I wouldn't think that any abuse of prisoners should be acceptable.
I don't see how we would be any better or worse than Hussein by torturing prisoners and suspects. Torture is torture.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:35 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | I wouldn't think that any abuse of prisoners should be acceptable.
I don't see how we would be any better or worse than Hussein by torturing prisoners and suspects. Torture is torture. |
Torture is torture, I agree, but there are certain cohersive interrogation techniquest that are necessary to save lives that could be taken by those who want us to treat terrorists oh-so-nicely as torture, when it is more like mild abuse, if you want to call it that, but I would really call cohersive interrogation techniques.
These could include such things as solitary confinement, listening to loud music, maybe ONE (MAYBE two, but probably not) day of no food--that kind of thing. Not the stuff at Abu Graihb, but some more cohersive interrogation techniques so that we can prevent another 9/11. THAT'S why we need a clear definition of torture, of abuse, and what's acceptable cohersive interrogation in a piece of legislation. Then, that legislation, if good, should be passed and supported by the VP and President. I think that the lack of a clear definition is why Cheney is questioning of it, because of the wide-range of opinions, and I stand there as well. I say let out a clear definition and let's have the government get it over with now, instead of years from now.
Define torture.
Define abuse.
Define acceptable cohersive interrogation methods.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 4:45 pm |
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Didn't they already have a definition of torture put out in July or August?
I suppose it's anybody's guess as to why Cheney isn't supporting the bill, but not supporting torture. Perhaps he should state his intentions, figuring this is only hurting his image (or whats left of it).
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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CJ Cregg
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:58 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | All the polls put Bush behind Kerry and who won? Bush. |
Wrong! http://pollingreport2.com/wh2004a.htm#2way
Bush had a lead in a vast majority of the polls in the final weeks
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:01 pm |
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I don't recall it being as such, but thank you for clearing that up. However, I look at the chart and still see Kerry ahead in a majority of polls. And I'm really talking the polls in the month prior to the election--October, more than anything, and just when the election was about to happen. It was more Kerry ahead than Bush, and that chart even shows it. Or it at least shows them about the same amount of times.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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IntrepidIsMe
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:04 pm |
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http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/torture/index.html
An interesting article, although he's rather botchy on some points. Although, due to his former position, I'd assume he'd know.
-------signature-------
"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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Republican_Man
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| Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:05 pm |
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There are a lot of people in former positions like that, but are they necessarily telling the truth, or not embellishing the truth? No. That may very well be the case here.
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"Rights are only as good as the willingness of some to exercise responsibility for those rights- Fmr. Colorado Senate Pres. John Andrews
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