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Hitchhiker
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 3514
Location: Ontario, Canada
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 Wed Nov 09, 2005 7:40 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | Now, they're very much our enemy. |
Very much so? So much, indeed, that they have killed American soldiers? A slight overreaction, in my opinion, just because a country chose to form its own political views rather than agree with the United States. It's okay though, because they have valuable raw materials (such as crude oil) that could be pipelined into the U.S., so they don't need to be treated as allies. 
Anyway . . . more on topic . . . France has a habit of revolting once and a while. 
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:15 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | Well, without the French, America wouldn't have one the War of Independence, so don't be too mean to them  . |
Debt repaid in 1941-1944?
Besides, always thought the Frenchies were arrogant, And noooo, not being racist, I have quite a bit of French in my lineage, sooooz...
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 6:57 pm |
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| Hitchhiker wrote: | | Republican_Man wrote: | | Now, they're very much our enemy. |
Very much so? So much, indeed, that they have killed American soldiers? A slight overreaction, in my opinion, just because a country chose to form its own political views rather than agree with the United States. It's okay though, because they have valuable raw materials (such as crude oil) that could be pipelined into the U.S., so they don't need to be treated as allies. |
What I mean, Tach, is that they haven't helped us in virtually any way. They went behind our backs helping our enemies and have been doing things to undermind us and hurt us at every turn. They may not have physically attacked us, but for all intents and purposes, they are very much our enemy. Oil for food is one example.
But back on topic, here's what I think is going on here.
First, France has allowed radical Islamic elements to grow unfeddered. They also allowed the Muslims to be segregated into ghettos, have horrible poverty rates, etc, and banned head scarves in schools.
Well, here's what I think, and it's quite logical if you look at it.
First, the radical Muslims lit the fire. Then, playing on the current situation of most Muslims, pushed it out farther and expanded it to eventually encompass the three-hundred something cities.
So, yes, it was the fault of the French that it expanded, and that it started in terms of their treatment of Muslims.. But it was also the fault of the radical Muslims for really lighting the fire, starting the thing. Remember, Imams are pushing for this to continue.
And keep in mind that if this continues, we could see France become an Islamic state. That's a real threat. Picture this: Osama taking over France, a Western European country. Frightening.
And yet despite this and what's happening, Chirac has done nothing more in the past two weeks than declare a state of emergency and declare a curfew of midnight. No military action, no nothing. It's ridiculous, especially how they called Bush a racist for the federal government's 2/3 day slowness to respond to Katrina, and yet it's taken Chirac TWO WEEKS to do the little he's done, and they don't call him a racist (not that I'm calling him one, I'm just saying) or complain about him. It's ridiculous, hypocritical, and unfair.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:22 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:14 pm |
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It's not just due to the actions of a small group of people. It's actually a majority of French people, and that's why they've been unofficially segregated. It doesn't believe that they're all racist, but it means that many of them are, or at least that it's mostly the government policiies that are racist.
And keep in mind, I'm 10% French. And my French heritage doesn't go back too far, anyways. I have literally blocks and blocks of French Canadian distant relatives (my great-grandmother's cousins) in Quebec, and they still have family in France. So I'm not too far off from that.
Am I ashamed of my French heritage? Not really, but I think that present-day France is rather racist (judging from the unnofficial segregation and stuff) and very much our enemy--mostly the government, but also a good percentage of the people. And by racist I don't necessarily mean the traditional definition, per se.
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:21 pm |
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France should deploy its army if they haven't already. Thats the only way to stop the massive rioting which has spread to other countries nearby. 
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:26 pm |
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| borgslayer wrote: | | France should deploy its army if they haven't already. Thats the only way to stop the massive rioting which has spread to other countries nearby. |
Uh...duh. But Chirac doesn't get it, and for some crack-head reason isn't doing anything about it. And it would be awfully late for him to do it as well--almost TWO WEEKS!
And btw, it's NOT a riot. It clearly is an insurgance. That's as clear as can be.
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:44 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | borgslayer wrote: | | France should deploy its army if they haven't already. Thats the only way to stop the massive rioting which has spread to other countries nearby. |
Uh...duh. But Chirac doesn't get it, and for some crack-head reason isn't doing anything about it. And it would be awfully late for him to do it as well--almost TWO WEEKS!
And btw, it's NOT a riot. It clearly is an insurgance. That's as clear as can be. |
Well I am reading the headlines and it says FRANCE RIOT. No offense but I am just posting at what I am reading.
Now President Jacque Chirac of France isn't doing anything because he knows that if he sends the army now to bad areas of France that the rioting has the media calls it might get worst. The French Army being deployed might force the Army to retaliate with force which has will have an even more negative effect on France's outlook in Europe. If Army uses force many people who are supposedly rioting could get killed which would result and outrage, anger, and more hatred for France. That could only spark more violence so the solution is hard to find at the moment for the French.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:47 pm |
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First, they call it riots, but that's not what they are. It's an insurgence, but the media just won't say that, because it's rather politically correct to, and they're worried about being called racist, etc. They're afraid to admit the truth.
And that's not it. It's that Chirac is weak. There is NO excuse for not trying to contain the insurgence there, which is EXPANDING. It has nothing to do with the media, etc.
And okay, so they get killed. It's they're own fault. They should know what could happen. They HAVE to be contained, and sending the military down there is the only way to do it. There's no other solution.
Last edited by Republican_Man on Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:47 pm |
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It never should have been allowed to escalate this far.
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borgslayer
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Posts: 2646
Location: Las Vegas
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:49 pm |
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| Theresa wrote: | | It never should have been allowed to escalate this far. |
I agree.
The deaths of 2 teenagers cause this problem. Solving the problem now is close to being impossible.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
Posts: 14823
Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:52 pm |
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| borgslayer wrote: | | Theresa wrote: | | It never should have been allowed to escalate this far. |
I agree.
The deaths of 2 teenagers cause this problem. Solving the problem now is close to being impossible. |
That, and the spark lit by radical Muslims, which started it in a great respect, and pushed for it to expand, which it did. It's quite clear that there was a radical Muslim element to this. I think that my analysis of that was correct.
It's not impossible, but it's really late to do it. I'm just wondering when the French are going to surrender to those carrying out the insurrection.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:56 pm |
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Btw, here's some more evidence of this being insurrection and radical Islamic elements having a role in this. Look at how wide-spread and organized it is. Too organized to just be riots and what have you.
EDIT: This is more of an insurgency than the out-right terrorism in Iraq. The enemies in Iraq are terrorists. In France, these people are insurgents.
I feel for France, either way. Both sides, and pray for a resolution.
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:09 pm |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | It's not just due to the actions of a small group of people. It's actually a majority of French people, and that's why they've been unofficially segregated. It doesn't believe that they're all racist, but it means that many of them are, or at least that it's mostly the government policiies that are racist.
And keep in mind, I'm 10% French. And my French heritage doesn't go back too far, anyways. I have literally blocks and blocks of French Canadian distant relatives (my great-grandmother's cousins) in Quebec, and they still have family in France. So I'm not too far off from that.
Am I ashamed of my French heritage? Not really, but I think that present-day France is rather racist (judging from the unnofficial segregation and stuff) and very much our enemy--mostly the government, but also a good percentage of the people. And by racist I don't necessarily mean the traditional definition, per se. |
So, I'll assume you've been to France and know what the general public opinion is towards North Africans and Muslims? Its only a small group of officials that make the laws and create the policies.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:48 pm |
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| IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong. |
What? You're part French? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
It maybe some of the officials who create and enforce the laws, but I have yet to see most of the French population rise up and combat these racist laws. Maybe some do, but most do not. Its obvious that this is a result of the people not helping the Muslims and treating them poorly. It is ridiculous to say that a "few" people are to blame. I'm not saying France as a whole is to blame, but they have done very little to help them.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:21 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong. |
What? You're part French? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
It maybe some of the officials who create and enforce the laws, but I have yet to see most of the French population rise up and combat these racist laws. Maybe some do, but most do not. Its obvious that this is a result of the people not helping the Muslims and treating them poorly. It is ridiculous to say that a "few" people are to blame. I'm not saying France as a whole is to blame, but they have done very little to help them. |
I could say the same thing about America rights now. Many people here are discriminated against, but do I see people speaking out or-as you say- 'rising up' against it? On the contrary, I see people participating in it...so if we are going to point fingers at the French people, I think it is only right that we point them at ourselves too. And exactly how do you propose they go about rising up? If all they have to choose from are corrupt officials, it is rather difficult to vote for change. At the same time, violence clearly isn't looked upon as a good way either.
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:26 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong. |
What? You're part French? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
It maybe some of the officials who create and enforce the laws, but I have yet to see most of the French population rise up and combat these racist laws. Maybe some do, but most do not. Its obvious that this is a result of the people not helping the Muslims and treating them poorly. It is ridiculous to say that a "few" people are to blame. I'm not saying France as a whole is to blame, but they have done very little to help them. |
I could say the same thing about America rights now. Many people here are discriminated against, but do I see people speaking out against it? On the contrary, I see people participating in it...so if we are going to point fingers at the French people, I think it is only right that we point them at ourselves too. And exactly how do you propose they go about rising up? If all they have to choose from are corrupt officials, it is rather difficult to vote for change. At the same time, violence clearly isn't looked upon as a good way either. |
You don't see people rising up against racism in America? I take it you live under a rock then, because people do rise up against it and speak out against racism. Not to mention, I never once said America was better than France, so there is no point in comparing the two.
I'm not pointing fingers. Its the obvious truth. Im not going to jump on the all Muslims are terrorists and this their fault bandwagon. This riot is a symbol of the French's intolerance to people within their own borders.
All they have to choose from are corrupt officials? Then maybe that is the problem right there. They shouldn't just sit back and allow that.
This also isn't really about the officials. Secularism has taken a deep root over there. Religion is not looked upon as a good thing over there. Not to mention the stereotype that Muslims=terrorists. I don't doubt its hard for the Muslism people. Its not just the officials perse, but the laws.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:38 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | Puck wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong. |
What? You're part French? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
It maybe some of the officials who create and enforce the laws, but I have yet to see most of the French population rise up and combat these racist laws. Maybe some do, but most do not. Its obvious that this is a result of the people not helping the Muslims and treating them poorly. It is ridiculous to say that a "few" people are to blame. I'm not saying France as a whole is to blame, but they have done very little to help them. |
I could say the same thing about America rights now. Many people here are discriminated against, but do I see people speaking out against it? On the contrary, I see people participating in it...so if we are going to point fingers at the French people, I think it is only right that we point them at ourselves too. And exactly how do you propose they go about rising up? If all they have to choose from are corrupt officials, it is rather difficult to vote for change. At the same time, violence clearly isn't looked upon as a good way either. |
You don't see people rising up against racism in America? I take it you live under a rock then, because people do rise up against it and speak out against racism. Not to mention, I never once said America was better than France, so there is no point in comparing the two.
I said discrimination, not specifically racism, although that is a form of discrimination. There is more than racial discrimination, there is religious, sexual, political, etc. And alot of it, no, I don't see alot of people rising up to speak against it. I hear people preach about equality, and preach morals to others, but when you actually look around, it is surprising how many of them actually follow what they say.
I'm not pointing fingers. Its the obvious truth. Im not going to jump on the all Muslims are terrorists and this their fault bandwagon. This riot is a symbol of the French's intolerance to people within their own borders.
Whose fault is it that people are getting hurt? Well, usually it is the people who lashing out violently, destroying innocent peoples property, torching buildings, shooting people, etc.... Of course, it is always fun to blame the French I suppose.
All they have to choose from are corrupt officials? Then maybe that is the problem right there. They shouldn't just sit back and allow that.
I am still waiting for a suggestion on what exactly they need to do to rid the government of these officials.
This also isn't really about the officials. Secularism has taken a deep root over there. Religion is not looked upon as a good thing over there. Not to mention the stereotype that Muslims=terrorists. I don't doubt its hard for the Muslism people. Its not just the officials perse, but the laws. |
I am not saying all of your points are really wrong, (although I do thing some of them are, but whatever) I just think you are making it out to be waaaaaay to black and white, when it really isn't that simple.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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Location: Classified
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:55 pm |
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Regardless of whether or not the French people are racist, the fact remains that they allowed the Muslims to be unnofficially segregated, made the head scarf bans, and allowed the North African Muslim population to go down the drain. Therefore, in that sense, it's their fault. It's their fault that, I would say (mostly the government, but still the people, for not accepting them), this is happening in that sense--that it was so easy for the radical Islamic minority to light such a strong fire. Again, I would say that the radical Muslim elements in France used the Muslim situation to their advantage, playing on it to start these riots which eventually expanded to over 300 cities and a full-blown insurrection, and chaos across the country. They sparked it, using the situations of Muslims to their advantage, and then sat back and watched as it expanded and the French government did nothing except allow the situation to deteriorate.
So, in a variety of ways I see that the blame goes around, to the government, the average Frenchman, the radical Islamic elements, and, of course, for actually carrying these out, most of the North African Muslims..
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:59 pm |
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| Puck wrote: |
I said discrimination, not specifically racism, although that is a form of discrimination. There is more than racial discrimination, there is religious, sexual, political, etc. And alot of it, no, I don't see alot of people rising up to speak against it. I hear people preach about equality, and preach morals to others, but when you actually look around, it is surprising how many of them actually follow what they say.
The white and black people who marched in the Civil Rights marches would disagree with you. The Gay and straight people who fight for gay equality would disagree with you. The women who marched for equal status with men would disagree with you. By the way, the Muslism thing? I was talking about Religious discrimination, not exactly the way they look, because Muslisms are a HUGE variety of races.
I will agree that not ENOUGH people do what they preach.
Whose fault is it that people are getting hurt? Well, usually it is the people who lashing out violently, destroying innocent peoples property, torching buildings, shooting people, etc.... Of course, it is always fun to blame the French I suppose.
Now who is simplifying things? Those who don't side with the French are having "fun"? No, its not that "black and white" or "simple". These people are not "lashing out..." out of malevolence or for the sake of it. They're doing it because they have been wronged. Maybe it is extreme, but like I said before, it doesn't look like many in France are doing much to change things. Maybe not even the Muslisms.
I am still waiting for a suggestion on what exactly they need to do to rid the government of these officials.
You're not going to get a suggestion, considering the fact that I know very little of France's government.
Do they not have the right to protest over there?(serious question). Maybe the least they can do is take up sides with the Muslisms and have peaceful protests to their treatment.
Here is another extreme way to get rid of the officials. Revolution. The French are popular for rising up against the corrupt governments in their homeland. Time to repeat history non?
I am not saying all of your points are really wrong, (although I do thing some of them are, but whatever) I just think you are making it out to be waaaaaay to black and white, when it really isn't that simple. |
I don't see how I'm making it out to be black and white. I understand that the Muslisms should not have resorted to these acts, which only furthers the horrible stereotype of them being terrorist, but I don't see how it is their fault they are being discriminated against.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
Joined: 26 Mar 2004
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| Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:19 am |
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First, I don't think that there's any way that it's entirely their fault for the discrimination. Although I do think that it IS part of it. Here's how. They refused to assimilate into French society. When their parents or they entered France, they refused to assimilate to French culture, etc. And from what I understand of it, the French are pretty snotty towards those that aren't like them--especially in their own country (from a Lt. Colonel on Fox last night that lived in France is where I'm really getting this idea). So, it's a combo of both. First, the French, mostly, for not accepting them and allowing them to simply acculturate, which they may have done in many cases, and forcing them to assimilate, but it's also the fault of the North Africans in the sense that they moved to France and affused to assimilate.
Although, mind you, I think that none of this is worthy of that discrimination, but nonetheless, it does fit.
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Theresa
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| Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:42 am |
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Wouldn't question one on the ballots, the fact that it was there at all, indicate that the American people do in fact take a stand against such things? How many marches do we hear of, etc... We don't hear of anything like that in France. Sure, it may just be the media coverage, but I'm sure you get my point.
France has a reputation for arrogance. You don't get a reputation for nothing. We have the rep of being pushy, etc... Well, we are.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:58 am |
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| Theresa wrote: | Wouldn't question one on the ballots, the fact that it was there at all, indicate that the American people do in fact take a stand against such things? How many marches do we hear of, etc... We don't hear of anything like that in France. Sure, it may just be the media coverage, but I'm sure you get my point.
France has a reputation for arrogance. You don't get a reputation for nothing. We have the rep of being pushy, etc... Well, we are. |
We also are quite well known for our arrogance .
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:23 am |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong. |
What? You're part French? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
It maybe some of the officials who create and enforce the laws, but I have yet to see most of the French population rise up and combat these racist laws. Maybe some do, but most do not. Its obvious that this is a result of the people not helping the Muslims and treating them poorly. It is ridiculous to say that a "few" people are to blame. I'm not saying France as a whole is to blame, but they have done very little to help them. |
I was stating that I was part French, because you seem to be implying that all French people are racist and arrogant, and hence its offensive.
I have never been to France, myself, so I can't state what the general opinion is or how the people act. However, from experience it isn't the people that make laws. I haven't heard or seen of any marches by the people to combat these laws, but would that really get any news coverage, especially here?
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IntrepidIsMe
Pimp Handed
Joined: 14 Jun 2002
Posts: 13057
Location: New York
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| Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:24 pm |
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| Founder wrote: | | IntrepidIsMe wrote: | | Founder wrote: | | To blame this on the Muslisms is wrong. France, ironically pertends they're the better of Human society, are racist. They always have been. They believe they are the epitomy of perfection in Europe. They treat those Muslims so horribly. This is what they get for it. |
I find that rather offensive. I'm part French, so does that mean I'm racist? Maybe I'm misinterpreting your post, but I'm gaining the implication that you're calling French people as a whole "racist," due to the actions of some officials.
But, perhaps I'm wrong. |
What? You're part French? What does that have to do with ANYTHING?
It maybe some of the officials who create and enforce the laws, but I have yet to see most of the French population rise up and combat these racist laws. Maybe some do, but most do not. Its obvious that this is a result of the people not helping the Muslims and treating them poorly. It is ridiculous to say that a "few" people are to blame. I'm not saying France as a whole is to blame, but they have done very little to help them. |
It has to do with what you said, because thats why I find it offensive.... I thought I made that clear, but apparently not. Your post implies that all French people are racist and arrogant.
I don't see how you can say that not enough French people are rising up to fight the racism within the laws. I doubt it would receive any news coverage, especially here in the US.
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"Nelly, I am Heathcliff! He's always, always in my mind: not as a pleasure, any more than I am always a pleasure to myself, but as my own being."
-Wuthering Heights
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