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Bush's Approval Rating Continues to Drop
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Do you approve of the job President Bush Is Doing?
Yes
30%
 30%  [ 4 ]
For the Most Part
7%
 7%  [ 1 ]
Slightly
15%
 15%  [ 2 ]
No
46%
 46%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 13

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Puck
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PostMon Oct 17, 2005 9:04 pm    Bush's Approval Rating Continues to Drop

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Bush's job rating continues to drop
Poll shows president's performance approval at low point

(CNN) -- President Bush's job approval rating continues to plummet, with 39 percent of Americans surveyed in the latest CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll supporting his performance, compared to 58 percent expressing disapproval.

The approval rating was lowest the poll has recorded during Bush's presidency, down from 45 percent in a survey taken September 26-28, and the disapproval rating was up from 50 percent.

The latest poll results, released Monday, were based on interviews with 1,012 adult Americans conducted by telephone October 13-16. In both surveys, the questions on approval ratings had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Bush has seen his approval rating steadily decline since he was sworn in for a second term in January, when 57 percent approved of his handling of the job and 40 percent disapproved.

The rating in the September 26-28 poll was an uptick that reflected the public's generally favorable view of the way Bush handled Hurricane Rita. (Full story)

His previous low of 40 percent came earlier in September and reflected the public's strongly negative view of his actions following Hurricane Katrina. (Full story)

Until then, pollsters attributed the president's poll slippage largely to perceptions of the administration's handling of the war in Iraq. (Full story)

In the latest poll, Bush's support appeared to have eroded even among suburban residents, who had been among his strongest backers, falling from 51 percent in last month's poll to 41 percent in the latest survey.

Among urban residents, his approval rating did not budge from 34 percent, and among rural residents it was almost the same, 44 percent versus 45 percent last month.

The sampling error for these and other questions that were broken down among groups was plus or minus 7 percentage points in both polls.
Base remains supportive

Bush's base appeared to remain largely supportive, with 62 percent of respondents who described themselves as conservative approving of his performance, down from 68 percent last month.

Support from moderates fell from 40 percent to 32 percent, and remained about the same for liberals, rising from 14 percent to 17 percent.

And the GOP faithful remained overwhelmingly steadfast in their support, with 84 percent voicing approval, versus 85 percent in last month's poll.

That was not the case among those who identified themselves as Democrats, whose support for Bush dropped from 15 percent to 8 percent.

It appeared that many Americans do not know what to make of the travails of top Bush political adviser Karl Rove, who was interviewed again last week by a grand jury regarding his possible role in leaking the name of a CIA operative.

Asked their opinion Rove, 22 percent of respondents said it was favorable, down from 25 percent in July, and 39 percent said it was unfavorable, up from 34 percent in July.

But 39 percent said they were unsure, down from 41 percent in July's poll. Both questions had a sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.



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Last edited by Puck on Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total


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Puck
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PostMon Oct 17, 2005 9:09 pm    

I know that I definately am not giving him as high marks these days.

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TrekkieMage
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PostTue Oct 18, 2005 8:17 pm    

Puck wrote:
I know that I definately am not giving him as high marks these days.


Nor am I. I am not happy with our governments lack of planning.


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webtaz99
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PostWed Oct 19, 2005 12:05 pm    

Just my opinion, but most people have no idea what the Presidents' powers are. Lots of people are giving Bush downchecks for things which are not directly under his control. They are simply knee-jerk reacting to the Liberals' media attacks.


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Leo Wyatt
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PostWed Oct 19, 2005 12:19 pm    

That is so true webtaz99. Yeah most people believe anything from the media. Media does not always tell the truth.

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Link, the Hero of Time
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PostWed Oct 19, 2005 12:52 pm    

"Brownie, you're doin' a heck of a job." Anyone?

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Theresa
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PostWed Oct 19, 2005 5:45 pm    

Well, remember, Bush is God. All of those reports that Katrina was his fault. (Not the handling, response, etc..., the hurricane itself)


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Hitchhiker
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PostWed Oct 19, 2005 5:48 pm    

Theresa wrote:
Well, remember, Bush is God. All of those reports that Katrina was his fault. (Not the handling, response, etc..., the hurricane itself)

I extend the blame to most of the politicians. It's all that hot air. . . .


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Republican_Man
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PostMon Oct 24, 2005 11:14 am    

I will admit that during the beginning portion of my ban from STV, I was very unimpressed with Bush. I thought that he was failing on so many things�moreso because of not what he WAS doing, but what he WASN�T doing. He has hardly done good things this term�however, when he made that one speech and everything�I gained more confidence in him. I was also very skeptical about Harriet Miers. It�s clear that there were far more more qualified nominees than her. She�s not nearly the best choice, and my skepticism of her was a little bit relieved over time. I�m giving her a chance to speak before the committee before making a judgment.
In short, I was, for a time, on the list that would give him a negative approval rating. Now, I�m not there, but I�m not far off.



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TrekkieMage
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PostMon Oct 24, 2005 3:35 pm    

Republican_Man wrote:
I thought that he was failing on so many things�moreso because of not what he WAS doing, but what he WASN�T doing. He has hardly done good things this term�however, when he made that one speech and everything�I gained more confidence in him.


I don't think one speech would change my mind. His entire administration has fallen out from under him these past few months. Key members of the adminstration are on trial, Katrina, Rita... They need to pull up something amazingly good for me to trust them (it probably doesn't help their case that I never have...)

*exhales*

Besides, in two years they'll be out of office.


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Republican_Man
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PostMon Oct 24, 2005 6:41 pm    

TrekkieMage wrote:
Republican_Man wrote:
I thought that he was failing on so many things�moreso because of not what he WAS doing, but what he WASN�T doing. He has hardly done good things this term�however, when he made that one speech and everything�I gained more confidence in him.


I don't think one speech would change my mind. His entire administration has fallen out from under him these past few months. Key members of the adminstration are on trial, Katrina, Rita... They need to pull up something amazingly good for me to trust them (it probably doesn't help their case that I never have...)

*exhales*

Besides, in two years they'll be out of office.


It wasn't JUST the one speech, but his Iraq speech was a really good thing. And the Rove thing doesn't bother me at all--I think he's innocent. He's just an administration plagued with bad timing, more than anything.
He's been a bit more proactive on reinforcing our reasons for going into Iraq, etc. and is, even though it's baloney, taking a harder stance on illegal immigration than in the past.



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LightningBoy
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PostMon Oct 24, 2005 10:25 pm    

I absolutely approve of President Bush.

Katrina wasn't Bush's fault, let's face that. The aftermath of Katrina wasn't Bush's fault either, FEMA IS NOT FIRST RESPONSE. Iraq is good. People are voting, the constitution is likely approved, Sadam's on the way to the gallows, 'Uday and Qusay are... dead-ay'. Employment is us, terrorist attacks on US soil are down. We've got a judicial genious as our supreme court chief-justice, and one of the worlds "top-50 greatest female lawyers" on the way to join him. Education funding in inner-city schools is at an all time high, and the government is finally looking out for all kids. Minorities have more top-ranking government appointments than ever, and they've got more opportuinites for advancement than ever.

Right now the state of the nation could be better, we (the people) are killing our economy by letting gas companies rape our free market for instance, but this is not by any action of the president. Weather is rough on us now, but that's an act of God. Yeah, we've taken hits, but the federal government could've weathered them much worse. Another problem we have are the witch-hunts against the Republican party, but obviously, that's not Bush's fault either.

Like anyone, Bush isn't perfect, but I thank my lucky stars that we've got a man like him in office. He's doing a great job.


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TrekkieMage
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PostWed Oct 26, 2005 3:08 pm    

LightningBoy wrote:

Katrina wasn't Bush's fault, let's face that. The aftermath of Katrina wasn't Bush's fault either, FEMA IS NOT FIRST RESPONSE.


You're right, Katrina wan't Bush's fault. But his administration and FEMA fumbled. Big time. I'm not putting all the blame on them, but they did mess up.

Quote:

Iraq is good. People are voting, the constitution is likely approved, Sadam's on the way to the gallows, 'Uday and Qusay are... dead-ay'.

That depends on your definition of good. I agree that a constitution is good for them, but I don't like how it got there. They shoudn't need our help, they didn't ask for our help. I do believe there are a few points in our constitution about invading other countries to tell them how to run their govenment.

On the other hand: if we were going into a variety of middle eastern countries- with their consent, or at least no outright 'no' from them- to eliminate terrorists in retaliation...that would be fine.

It would also have been fine if we'd been told what we were doing there from the begining and if we'd had a plan. We didn't. Congress didn't do it's job. That bugs me.

Quote:

Employment is us, terrorist attacks on US soil are down.


I think you ment 'up' not 'us'.

There were never a whole ton of attacks on US soil to begin with. Not so concerned about that.

Quote:

We've got a judicial genious as our supreme court chief-justice, and one of the worlds "top-50 greatest female lawyers" on the way to join him.

That would be a matter of opinion. It's looking like the majority of people don't want her in.

Quote:

Education funding in inner-city schools is at an all time high, and the government is finally looking out for all kids.


Ha! Yes, funding is up. But standards are way down. Schools are focusing on passing standardized test in math, science and english. Not focusing on giving children a well rounded education (art, music, drama, social studies-yes social studies). Just look at California. They doing a spectacular job aren't they? Didn't a ton of seniors fail their end of year exams? Which were aimed at a 10th grade reading level and a 8th grade math level? What was their response? Lets dumb it down!

I don't have much faith in our education system-sorry.

Quote:

Minorities have more top-ranking government appointments than ever, and they've got more opportuinites for advancement than ever.

Can't disagree with you there. But I still think that our country is run by a bunch of old white men (No offence intended!)

Quote:

Right now the state of the nation could be better, we (the people) are killing our economy by letting gas companies rape our free market for instance, but this is not by any action of the president.

I completely agree. Not much else I can say without going on a rant about SUVs and gas prices 0

Quote:

Weather is rough on us now, but that's an act of God. Yeah, we've taken hits, but the federal government could've weathered them much worse.

Again, I agree. The weather is no ones responsibility. It's how we handle the after effects (although, I wouldn't say the weather is an act of God, but that's my personal beliefs)

Quote:

Another problem we have are the witch-hunts against the Republican party, but obviously, that's not Bush's fault either.

I'm not against the Republican party in general. Most of them are perfectly nice, ordinary people who have done nothing to deserve blame. But there are the few on top who have done some aweful things, and I'm glad that they are finally being put on trial. Whether or not they are found guilty, it sends a message to politicians of both parties that if you do illegal and imoral things, you will get caught sooner or later.

Quote:

Like anyone, Bush isn't perfect, but I thank my lucky stars that we've got a man like him in office. He's doing a great job.

I know Bush isn't perfect. But I don't think he's doing a great job.

And I would like to clarify (just in case) that when I refer to Bush, about 70-80% of the time I'm refering to his whole administration- not him personally. I'm sure that personally he's a nice guy and not capable of single handedly doing most of these things

And that was one really long post!!


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Republican_Man
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PostWed Oct 26, 2005 3:49 pm    

Typical Liberal...

TrekkieMage wrote:
LightningBoy wrote:

Katrina wasn't Bush's fault, let's face that. The aftermath of Katrina wasn't Bush's fault either, FEMA IS NOT FIRST RESPONSE.


You're right, Katrina wan't Bush's fault. But his administration and FEMA fumbled. Big time. I'm not putting all the blame on them, but they did mess up.

The messed up, yes. But THEY didn't mess up "big time." Maybe FEMA messed up a lot, but not the Bush administration.

Quote:

Iraq is good. People are voting, the constitution is likely approved, Sadam's on the way to the gallows, 'Uday and Qusay are... dead-ay'.

That depends on your definition of good. I agree that a constitution is good for them, but I don't like how it got there. They shoudn't need our help, they didn't ask for our help. I do believe there are a few points in our constitution about invading other countries to tell them how to run their govenment.

On the other hand: if we were going into a variety of middle eastern countries- with their consent, or at least no outright 'no' from them- to eliminate terrorists in retaliation...that would be fine.

It would also have been fine if we'd been told what we were doing there from the begining and if we'd had a plan. We didn't. Congress didn't do it's job. That bugs me.

Answer me this question: How the HELL is a country supposed to ASK for our help when they are being kept under a tight leash by an evil tyrannical dictator, hmmmm? They can't. Exactly.
And I don't believe that they say anything about that with regards to invasions of other countries
Secondly, we WERE told what we were doing there from the beginning. There was a threat of WMDs and we were trying to liberate them as well, hence the title "Operation Iraqi Freedom." Or do you just make a point to ignore that?
And we DID have a plan, however it was not expected how big the post-war stuff would be. They couldn't have anticipated this. No way.


Quote:

Employment is us, terrorist attacks on US soil are down.


I think you ment 'up' not 'us'.

There were never a whole ton of attacks on US soil to begin with. Not so concerned about that.

Whate he means is that we haven't had one since 9/11--so in a sense, he's right.

Quote:

We've got a judicial genious as our supreme court chief-justice, and one of the worlds "top-50 greatest female lawyers" on the way to join him.

That would be a matter of opinion. It's looking like the majority of people don't want her in.

Actually, the majority hasn't made a decision about it. It's the far right and far left that are dead-bent against her, and some scattered throughout, but most ordinary Americans, such as myself, have yet to form an opinion on her.

Quote:

Education funding in inner-city schools is at an all time high, and the government is finally looking out for all kids.


Ha! Yes, funding is up. But standards are way down. Schools are focusing on passing standardized test in math, science and english. Not focusing on giving children a well rounded education (art, music, drama, social studies-yes social studies). Just look at California. They doing a spectacular job aren't they? Didn't a ton of seniors fail their end of year exams? Which were aimed at a 10th grade reading level and a 8th grade math level? What was their response? Lets dumb it down!

I don't have much faith in our education system-sorry.

Actually, you've got it backwards. Starndards are UP. Just not in all areas--which they don't need to. Art, music, and drama education, as well as foreign languages, should NOT be required by the Federal government that pertains to the national standards. It is important, yes, to have a well-rounded education, but the federal government only needs to be responsable for the necessary bare minimum--which is what they're doing. It's the STATE governments' responsibility to provide other educational standards and really keep education going to the fullest.
Are you blaming the California's school system's failure on the BUSH Administration? It's far from it. The STATES are what should be accountable for maintaining the standards--the federal government only needs to set certain national standards. It's the job of the state and local governments to do better. It's NOT Bush's fault that education is failing.
Each state should put at least 65% of ALL education spending DIRECTLY into the classroom--that is to say, arts programs and extra-curricular activities are included in the definition of classroom, as well as the actual classroom--so that teachers can have more materials to teach children--which, in most cases, is not happening, but the best school districts in the state have 65% or more--such as the Cherry Creek School District here in Colorado.
My school district, the CCSD, is the BEST in the state, ranking one of the best in the nation. Does it put too much emphasis on the C-SAPs? NO. It's really just the couple weeks before them that the district's schools ever really focus on it. And we have ALL sorts of other programs, and about 89% of all money goes directly into the classroom. CCSD has so many things in it and is so successful that it really shows that it's HOW the money is distributed and HOW the schools are run--NOT how much money or what the regulations of the federal government are. Therefore, there is no reason to blame Bush for failures in education in certain states. It's the state and local governments that are failing.


Quote:

Minorities have more top-ranking government appointments than ever, and they've got more opportuinites for advancement than ever.

Can't disagree with you there. But I still think that our country is run by a bunch of old white men (No offence intended!)

Quote:

Right now the state of the nation could be better, we (the people) are killing our economy by letting gas companies rape our free market for instance, but this is not by any action of the president.

I completely agree. Not much else I can say without going on a rant about SUVs and gas prices 0

Quote:

Weather is rough on us now, but that's an act of God. Yeah, we've taken hits, but the federal government could've weathered them much worse.

Again, I agree. The weather is no ones responsibility. It's how we handle the after effects (although, I wouldn't say the weather is an act of God, but that's my personal beliefs)

Quote:

Another problem we have are the witch-hunts against the Republican party, but obviously, that's not Bush's fault either.

I'm not against the Republican party in general. Most of them are perfectly nice, ordinary people who have done nothing to deserve blame. But there are the few on top who have done some aweful things, and I'm glad that they are finally being put on trial. Whether or not they are found guilty, it sends a message to politicians of both parties that if you do illegal and imoral things, you will get caught sooner or later.

Baloney. Look at all the scandals of the Clinton era, and the Democrats (such as Hillary) in general. So many, and nothing happened to them--save the impeachment trials over his lying to the American people, right in their faces. Since there is NO real reason to go after these people, there's no good that can come from them being charged for crimes.
What proof do you have that "there are a few up top who have done awful things"? Nothing. You can't provide me any proof, and that is exactly why what the Democrats are trying to do is just ludicrous. There WAS no crime committed by Rove, etc, and that's why they're going for pergery now.
It's no more than a witchhunt to get Republicans. It has NOTHING to do with sending a message to politicians. It's the Democrats trying to get at the Republicans. NOTHING MORE. Did you know that Kerry TRULY, on the FLOOR OF THE SENATE, released the name of a CIA agent who DID fall into that 5-year rule, hmmm? And what happened? NOTHING. Exactly. It's merely a wtichhunt against Repyublicans. that's it.
And by the way, it sends a message to the Republicans that if you do anything that the Democrats can get a hold of that they can exagerate to make it seem as though you've committed a crime, we'll try to put you to trial. It does NOT say anything to both parties--otherwise, there would have been MANY more trials over Democrats that there have NOT been.
It is simply the left trying to create another Watergate scandal--this time with another President.


Quote:

Like anyone, Bush isn't perfect, but I thank my lucky stars that we've got a man like him in office. He's doing a great job.

I know Bush isn't perfect. But I don't think he's doing a great job.

And I would like to clarify (just in case) that when I refer to Bush, about 70-80% of the time I'm refering to his whole administration- not him personally. I'm sure that personally he's a nice guy and not capable of single handedly doing most of these things

And that was one really long post!!



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TrekkieMage
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PostWed Oct 26, 2005 4:06 pm    

Typically conservative

(I'm not going to repost the entire thing-it'll be too long)

1. War: There are rules for warfare. It is one of the few clear points in the constitution. Congress declares war. Not the president. This has been an issue since post WWII. It is nothing new, but the Iraq was is a perfect example. It is not our job to police the rest of the world. The UN has been tasked with that responsibility. And we helped start it. Perhaps it isn't doing a good job right now (I haven't been keeping up with UN happenings) but that may (MAY) be because America isn't supporting it as much as it could.

You're right. We did have a plan. But not a good one. When were the troops supposed to be out of Iraq? Why did we go into Iraq? Why didn't we just go after the terrorist? Didn't we put Hussein there?

I agree that we needed to help, we needed to do something. I just think that we rushed in without considering the consequences of our actions.

2. Miers: It usually is the far left and right that make loud opinions, but the fact that they both agree on not likeing her says something.

3. education: Yes. It is up to the sates. But it is the federal laws that guide the states. No Child Left Behind. It encourages standardized testing without helping the basic structures of schools (the buildings, the teachers, the materials). I also happen to live in a county that cares a lot about education. My high school is continually ranked in the top 15 or so high schools according to the Newsweek challenge index. I believe we are 5th right now. I should post a link to an article we read in government about the conditions of inner city schools. It had a very strong impact on me.

4. "witch hunts" This isn't anything new. Remember that Clinton was impeached (for those who don't know, impeachement is just the trial. Being kicked out of office is something different). Nixon was basically scared out of the White House. BOTH parties are guilty. I'm not blaming one party or the other. It just happens that right now the Republicans are under the spotlight.

It's not a witch hunt, it's justice. And it's how we keep this country running. With time the tables will turn and a Democrat will come under heavy fire.

And by the way, welcome back to WN


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Republican_Man
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PostWed Oct 26, 2005 5:22 pm    

TrekkieMage wrote:
Typically conservative

Far from it.

(I'm not going to repost the entire thing-it'll be too long)

1. War: There are rules for warfare. It is one of the few clear points in the constitution. Congress declares war. Not the president. This has been an issue since post WWII. It is nothing new, but the Iraq was is a perfect example. It is not our job to police the rest of the world. The UN has been tasked with that responsibility. And we helped start it. Perhaps it isn't doing a good job right now (I haven't been keeping up with UN happenings) but that may (MAY) be because America isn't supporting it as much as it could.

You're right. We did have a plan. But not a good one. When were the troops supposed to be out of Iraq? Why did we go into Iraq? Why didn't we just go after the terrorist? Didn't we put Hussein there?

I agree that we needed to help, we needed to do something. I just think that we rushed in without considering the consequences of our actions.

Uh, Congress may not have formally declared war, which they haven't done since WWII, however it was NOT a police action. It may not have been a formal declaration of war, but the Congress DID vote for the war. And the Un does have that responsability, sure--but they don't act on it. They haven't for decades, and when they do, it's nothing. And besides, it was NOT the US policing the world. It was the US trying to DEFEND THEMSELVES AND bring freedom to another nation--not try to police the world.
Plus, the government should have done just what they did and are doing now--not make a timetable. That would only embolden the terrorists and hurt the Iraqis. (Btw, they did say when we would leave: when the Iraqis could take hold of their country in its entirety, including security, themselves.) And also, we DID go after the terrorists, and still are, but keep in mind a few things: He threatened to hurt the US, funded terrorists, shot at our fighter planes, worked with Al Quada (communications and funding), gave money to those that killed Americans and Israelis, AND didn't comply with Un Resolution 1441--and were thought to have WMDs--which they may still have. AND he was involved in a plot in the 90s to assassinate Bush Senior, and he wanted Revenge, and he was an evil dictator that had to be taken out.
And NO, we did NOT put Saddam there. I don't know where you're getting your information. He was there for years, only we came in in the 90s and, after making the Gulf War treaty, allowed him to remain in office--a failure on Bush Senior's account, yes, but still--we did NOT put him in power. That is false.


2. Miers: It usually is the far left and right that make loud opinions, but the fact that they both agree on not likeing her says something.

Uh, not really; I don't think so. There are far different reasons for each side's stance.

3. education: Yes. It is up to the sates. But it is the federal laws that guide the states. No Child Left Behind. It encourages standardized testing without helping the basic structures of schools (the buildings, the teachers, the materials). I also happen to live in a county that cares a lot about education. My high school is continually ranked in the top 15 or so high schools according to the Newsweek challenge index. I believe we are 5th right now. I should post a link to an article we read in government about the conditions of inner city schools. It had a very strong impact on me.

CERTAIN federal laws. I will admit that No Child Left Behind wasn't the best solution, but it was necessary (for the most part). It pushed for the maintaining of certain NECESSARY standards--Math, English, and Science--the most important (at least the two former). he funded them sufficeiently, but it is NOT the job of the federal government to maintain the buildings, materials, etc--that is the job of the STATES. And also, I KNOW what the condition of inner-city schools is. My guitar teacher substituted 4 times at the worst school in the state--Mont Bellow. As well as Denver East and Denver South. All inner-city schools that aren't that great. The thing is, though, that it's NOT the responsibility of the federal government to maintain education at such levels as that--it's the responsibility of state and local governments.
Here's what the STATE governments need to do:
1. Implement the 65 Cent Solution plan, requiring all schools to put 65% of all funds to the classroom. (For instance, Denver Public Schools spend about 52% on average of all funds in the classroom--that's IT. And everything about them is bad.)
2. Work from the bottom up, starting with the worst schools in the state and trying to fix them.
Throwing more money at the problem is NOT going to fix it. How the system is done is what we need to fix. Throwing more money at it will only WORSEN the situation, leading to even more poor spending. That's why the state and local governments need to implement the 65 Cent Solution for First Class Education--every state--and work from the bottom up to fix the way schools are run. More money from the federal government is NOT the solution.


4. "witch hunts" This isn't anything new. Remember that Clinton was impeached (for those who don't know, impeachement is just the trial. Being kicked out of office is something different). Nixon was basically scared out of the White House. BOTH parties are guilty. I'm not blaming one party or the other. It just happens that right now the Republicans are under the spotlight.

It's not a witch hunt, it's justice. And it's how we keep this country running. With time the tables will turn and a Democrat will come under heavy fire.

JUSTICE? I just commented about Clinton's impeachment trial in my response, but you IGNORED everything else. About Hillary's scandals. About the Whitewater scandal. About SO MANY things that the democrats have done--and yet only Clinton was after for lying to the American people, in their eyes, about sex. The president lied.
However, NOW since it's the REPUBLICANS who are in power, and the Democrats/Liberals HATE Tom Delay, Bill Frist, Carl Rove, Cheney, Libby, and Bush, they're trying to go after them. They're trying to impeach Bush for Clinton's impeachment--revenge--and make another Watergate, this one with the Bush administration. They're trying to get Bush in trouble and ruin the legacy that scares them so much. It REALLY is no more than a witchhunt--it is FAR from "justice."
And again I stress that many democrats did things--including Kerry leaking the name of a CIA agent ON THE SENATE FLOOR--one that would have been in danger--that they weren't even prosecuted for. It's an ANTI-Bush, Anti-Republican VENDETTA to get after these people. A witchhunt when they, themselves, are able to get away with everything. Justice? Far from it. (Btw, I think that if there's reasonable cause to go after a Republican or Democrat, regardless of party, that's fine. But here, there IS no reasonable cause and they DON'T go after the Democrats for their scandals--only the impeachment. That was IT.
And btw, impeachment ISN'T just a trial. It's the trial in the House of Representatives that, if the President is found guilty, means that it will go to the Senate to be kicked out, only the Senate has the ability to restrict it. You have to explain it more, not leave the people who don't know ignorant, like so many liberals (not necessarily you ) tend to do.



And by the way, welcome back to WN



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PostWed Oct 26, 2005 8:58 pm    

I was teasing you about the typically conservative thing, RM

1. I know Congress hasn't formally declared ar since WWII. That's the problem. They are supposed to, but they don't want to take responsibility which is very irresponsible of them.

I agree that it was necissary (I can't spell tonight ) to retaliate against the terrorists. But bringing freedom to another nation is the US butting our noses into another country's affairs. We could have supported them in other ways. I don't know exactly how, but there were better alternitives. Perhaps we should try to give the UN some muscle instead of sitting on the sidelines as one of the most, if not the most, powerful nations in the world and criticizing them.

Perhaps I'm wrong about Suddam. But we did in some way help him stay in power.

2. I know they dislike Meirs for different reasons. But neither one likes her. That's the point. She doesn't even satisfy one party.

3. Throwing money at schools isn't the answer? Then explain why so many upper class citizens send their kids to schools that cost as much as a good college every year? I know it is the states responsibility, but the federal govenment is there to help the states, just as the states are there to help the federal govenment. No job is the responsibility of just one part of the govenment.
And I agree with your ideas for fixing the education system. And I think that other things we need to work on are testing. I think that there is too much pressure on the wrong tests. A lot of emphisis is already put on Math, English and Science, but funding and attention isn't being bestowed on the arts and social science. They are just as important as the other subjects. They help to develop more creative thinking as opposed to just memorizing formulas and rules. Besides, music is heavily linked to math and science.

4. That is a rather biased opinion. They just happen to be in the fire now because they are in control and people were noticing that things weren't working. Right now these trials are to determine wether or not they are actually guilty of the charges. Until they are done, we don't know whether or not they are guilty. Unless you happen to be telepathic

And I said impeachment is a trial because so many people think that being impeached means being kicked out. I didn't know that it wasn't until a few years ago. I just mentioned it in case anyone reading thought otherwise.

I find it interesting that while we still disagree on many points, we're narrowing down the pieces which we disagree on, it seems that we are taking some of the same information and interpreting it differently. It's facinating how we can spin different conclusions out of such similar sources.


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PostWed Oct 26, 2005 11:41 pm    

Let me tear up your argument.

TrekkieMage wrote:
I was teasing you about the typically conservative thing, RM

1. I know Congress hasn't formally declared ar since WWII. That's the problem. They are supposed to, but they don't want to take responsibility which is very irresponsible of them.

I agree that it was necissary (I can't spell tonight ) to retaliate against the terrorists. But bringing freedom to another nation is the US butting our noses into another country's affairs. We could have supported them in other ways. I don't know exactly how, but there were better alternitives. Perhaps we should try to give the UN some muscle instead of sitting on the sidelines as one of the most, if not the most, powerful nations in the world and criticizing them.

Perhaps I'm wrong about Suddam. But we did in some way help him stay in power.

The Congress still, for all intents and purposes, declared war. (Necessary is the proper spelling.)
And oh my gosh, you liberals and your constant "butting into other nations' affairs" argument...First of all, two countries: Rwanda and the Sudan. Let's look at the Un and Iraq, when they threatened but did not take real action. Do you REALLY think that with all those failures--the Un's innaction in so many instances--and the Oil for Food scandal they would REALLY have taken action against Iraq? They did NOTHING, and they weren't going to do anything. The US pushing even harder would have gotten nowhere, Madam. France and Russia, which were cosie with Iraq, would easily and swiftly have vetoed such a resolution in the Security Council. Give the Un some muscle? We have Bolton in there, but they don't like him BECAUSE he's trying to give them muscle. You REALLY don't understand the Un and the nations in it, do you, or the powers of the Security Council, and the P-5 members and what their powers are, do you? Just because we're the most powerful nation doesn't mean that we can convince people who are mooching off of Iraq or some other country via oil, etc. and who are overwhelmingly liberal and halt action to actually TAKE action. Do a little research on the Un, will you?
Second of all, the US wasn't doing this to "police the world" or "butt into other countries' affairs." We did it PRIMARILY for the defense of our nation. THAT was the MAIN reason for war. The secondary reason was to bring freedom to a nation--which is a NOBLE thing to do. Look at what they are able to do now, will you? And don't blind yourself to the thought that we could actually convince the Un to do something. We did all that we could to make them actually go through with Resolution 1441, but they didn't take action like they promised. They are a corrupt and inneffective organization, and I expect Bolton to have a damn tough time in reforming it. We can only hope and pray that he can, but it won't be easy, and at the time the inactiveness of the organization meant that we had to take action into our own hands.


2. I know they dislike Meirs for different reasons. But neither one likes her. That's the point. She doesn't even satisfy one party.

Some could interpret that as being a GOOD thing.

3. Throwing money at schools isn't the answer? Then explain why so many upper class citizens send their kids to schools that cost as much as a good college every year? I know it is the states responsibility, but the federal govenment is there to help the states, just as the states are there to help the federal govenment. No job is the responsibility of just one part of the govenment.

Allow me to debunk your argument, starting with the first part, about money and private schools.
First, yes, throwing more money at schools isn't the answer when the way that they are distributing the money is horrible and corrupt. Plus, across the country AT LEAST $10,000 are spent per student--that's MORE THAN ENOUGH. Secondly, parents send their children to private school when they're weathy for two reasons: One, to display their social status (lesser case, but sometimes is the case). Two, because they want the best education that they at least THINK they can give their children, which is simply expensive because it is what the schools want to charge. The reason that their money makes for good grades, etc. is because they are faced with competition, something that schools aren't faced with. Because of this, they are truly forced to distribute the money in a proper fashion, not to mention get to determine everything that is done in their schools. That's a lame-duck argument to say that throwing more money at the problem isn't the solution when money is NOT the problem. About $12,000 is spent per kid here in Colorado, it is my understanding, and yet schools are still doing poorly in so many areas. Why is that? NOT because they don't have the funds, but they aren't DISTRIBUTING them well, and THAT'S the solution to the problem. You liberals (apologies for the generalization) ALWAYS think that the mighty government should have more money and more control and that giving the government more money, or certain programs more money, is the solution to every problem. Well that's NOT the case. Money is FAR from the problem with education. It's the DISTRIBUTION of that money and how schools are run that's the problem, NOT the amount of money that they're getting.
Secondly, you are correct that THIS job is not solely the responsibility of the state government--although many jobs ARE, contrary to your last sentence. However, the PRIMARY responsibility for education is the STATE government, and that is as it should be. The federal government should be LIMITED in how much control they have over education and how much money gets put into the education system.

For CJ Cregg's Trigan RPG, I am Secretary of Education right now, and presented a budget for the Federal Government's DOE spending. The following is it, and displays where I think federal government spending--in percentages--should go.


Trigan Education 2005 Budget wrote:
The Department of Education has compiled the following 2005 budget for federal education spending. The spending amounts are in percents, not dollar amounts, as the amount of funds given to the department will likely fluctuate.

Whereas the State and Local governments have primary responsibility for education,
Whereas the goal of the Department of Education is to provide federal funds designated only for certain specific education requirements,
and Whereas the Federal government is necessary for certain aspects of Trigan's education system,
the following Budget for the Department of Education is proposed by the Secretary of Education:

Classroom Spending: 80 percent of all federal spending will go directly to the classroom. Each state will receive an equal percentage of 20% per state of federal spending, and the money is intended to go directly to providing more resources for teachers (including computers and other necessary equipment), resources and funds for in-school art programs, teacher salaries, and funds for extra-curricular activities (which assist children in many respects).

Grants to Local Education Agencies: 3% of all Federal education money will go towards grants to local education agencies.

Federal Program Backing Funds and DOE Money: 6% of the DOE education budget will be allocated towards the funding of federally-mandated programs and requirements that are not standardized assessments, as well as income allocated for operations of the Department of Education (approximately 1% of all DOE spending).

State Assessments: Once a standardized test plan has been constructed by the Department of Education, 3% of all federal education spending will be dedicated to helping states implement testing requirements and programs. 0.5% of all funds (included in the 3%) goes directly towards competitive grants for schools that do exceptionally well on the tests, with the remaining to be distributed as per state decisions.

Reading: 2% of the budget is dedicated to literacy programs to help students in preschool and elementary school improve their reading skills.

Non-Classroom Spending: 6% of all federal funds will go to the states with the intention of maintanence for schools (not classroom spending, but building maintainence). The distribution of these funds is to be based off of which states have schools that are maintained worse, with those states with the worst maintainence spending receiving more money.


I think that that is reasonable, and that the government need not put too much money into education. Each state should be given an equal percentage of the money (change the percentage in that part above) to distribute how they wish, with the other percents going towards said positions.


And I agree with your ideas for fixing the education system. And I think that other things we need to work on are testing. I think that there is too much pressure on the wrong tests. A lot of emphisis is already put on Math, English and Science, but funding and attention isn't being bestowed on the arts and social science. They are just as important as the other subjects. They help to develop more creative thinking as opposed to just memorizing formulas and rules. Besides, music is heavily linked to math and science.

There is enough pressure on standardized tests. There is not too little or too much--just the right amount, although I would say that they should be fixed up a bit to allow for each child's unique abilities to be shown, however there is the right amount of pressure on standardized tests. Math and English are the two most important things--Science comes after that. You need to know how to do a certain level of math and be able to read, write, and comprehend well--or you shouldn't be being promoted.
I don't see, at least in my district, how funding for arts and social studies isn't there. We have SO many social studies and arts classes--including even "social dance" that it's not even funny. While the arts and social studies (particularly social studies) are important, the only FEDERAL focus should be on the main two things, and perhaps science. However, Social Studies varies so much by state that you can't set set curriculum beyond a law here or there for Constitution Day stuff to be taught in schools and what have you.
Is social science (studies) important? Oh, yes. I would say just as important as science, if not more--and I've only taken ONE standardized test dealing with science, and that's not even the national one. I would say that science is not as important as social studies because social studies involves history and society and all that--important things to teach the future about, and I see enough focus going there.
Well, maybe not quite. In terms of the FEDERAL focus, it's going where it needs to go. But the state focus SHOULD be on Math, English, Science, and Social Studies as required courses, with arts and other extra classes as optional courses but a certain amount of each specific portion are required (like in my district).
However, there clearly isn't enough focus on anything in the classroom because not NEARLY enough money is going into the classroom, and that's why 65% should go into the classroom and be distributed by priorities set by state and local governments, with federal standards taking precedence but closely followed by state and local government standards, etc.

So, basically, the distribution of funds and way the schools are run needs to be fixed. Throwing more money at the problem isn't the solution, like you liberals (apologies for the generalization again) always thing. It's INTERNAL reform that we need, not more spending. This goes right with Colorado Amendment C, saying that we need more money for education, raising taxes to get it, when Amendment 23 already has a set rate of increase in education spending for each year and each school gets the right amount of funds. It's, again, the APPLICATION of funds and how the schools are run that needs to be fixed--NOT how much money is going into them.
Throwing more money at the problem is only going to add to the corruption of the school system as well. If the funds aren't being distributed properly, only more money will go into the hands of corrupt bureucrats (sp?).


4. That is a rather biased opinion. They just happen to be in the fire now because they are in control and people were noticing that things weren't working. Right now these trials are to determine wether or not they are actually guilty of the charges. Until they are done, we don't know whether or not they are guilty. Unless you happen to be telepathic

There was scandal after scandal when the Democrats were in control of the Presidency in the 90s, and a time the Congress, and yet there was only real uproar and what have you over Clinton's one thing. Not the Whitewater scandal, not so many other things. Just because one is in power doesn't mean that they should have any more scrutiny than those that aren't in power, anyways. Everyone knew Valarie Plame's identity. Even if someone DID leak her identity, NO law was broken (again, 5-year statute). Also, there's no solid evidence about Tom Delay. It is simply a PARTISAN thing from the democrats to get at the Republicans, yes to take them out of power and impeach Bush, sure, but this is going on for purely ppartisan reasons. It is a witch hunt, and that's all that it is--Democrats trying to hurt Republicans, particularly Bush, in any way they can. They've been doing it since the man first took office, trying to find ways to get him out.
And if there's no real evidence for a crime being committed, then charges shouldn't even be brought up. But noooo, despite the lack of evidence or even the presence of an ACTUAL CRIME, we HAVE to get the Republicans. We HAVE to get Delay and Frist and Bush and Rove and Libby and Cheney. We HAVE to stop these people. That's it. Nothing more. It's pure partisan politics at its worse. Not that Republicans don't do this sometimes, but it tends to be a lot less with them and the Democrats just keep coming up with something new every time they lose, such as pergery over Rove, since there was NO crime committed.



And I said impeachment is a trial because so many people think that being impeached means being kicked out. I didn't know that it wasn't until a few years ago. I just mentioned it in case anyone reading thought otherwise.

You should have explained it more. House impeaches, Senate, in a sense, ratifies the impeachment and inflicts the punishment. But, of course, in the interest of "fairness," the Republican-controlled Senate dissaproved of the impeachment, and therefore didn't impeach the proven liar to the people he was supposed to be leading.



I find it interesting that while we still disagree on many points, we're narrowing down the pieces which we disagree on, it seems that we are taking some of the same information and interpreting it differently. It's facinating how we can spin different conclusions out of such similar sources.


By the way: I don't spin. I just give my perspective, but don't spin. I have a sign on my door that says "The Spin Stops Here!"



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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 4:14 pm    

And let me respond

1. I admitted that I don't know much about the UN. I'm going to try and learn more, but right now I really don't know enough to effectively debate about it.

All I am saying is that we should have been more constructive about how we went in. Our plan was too vauge, and we went in full scale to fast. Retalliation is acceptable in my mind. That made sense. But we should have debated going into a full scale war more than we did.

RM, over 2,000 Americans have lost their lives fighting an (in my mind) ill-planned war. We could have prevented some of those deaths. We didn't. I want to make this clear:

I support the troops. I support the cause. I support freedom.

I do not support the planning of the war. I do not support the course of the war.

2. Well. Meirs is gone. So there goes that debate. Guess we have to wait for a new nomination

3. I agree that the money is being distributed ineffectively. And that it is the state's responsibility. The problem is, people have been increasingly turning to the FEDERAL govenment when they need something. This has been something happening since the New Deal.

Perhaps a better solution is for the Federal government to outline a way for the states to take over more responsibility. Whatever the solution, it isn't going to be immediate.

And I do need to find you that article...

As for the arts- they are very important. They can be very relaxing, rejouvinating (again, my vocabulary may be good, but I can't spell woth beans ), challenging, and it encourages creative thinking. In that way it assists students in all their other classes.

Buracrats. I think.

4. I was too young to remember any scandal by the Democrats. But if there was, the Republicans had just as much of an opportunity to call them on it. But they didn't. Or they didn't make a big enough deal of it. If there is a strong enough, or serious enough possibility that officials of Dlay, Rove, and Cheny's importance it should be investigated. And again, we don't know wether or not a crime was committed. We'll see how the trials turn out.

And you at least knew what I ment about impeachment

And I never accused you of putting a spin on things. But we've interpreted things differently, which is interesting.

Oh, and for the record, I don't consider myself a Democrat. I don't like their attitude.


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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 6:21 pm    

TrekkieMage wrote:
And let me respond

1. I admitted that I don't know much about the UN. I'm going to try and learn more, but right now I really don't know enough to effectively debate about it.

Then be careful what you say about it.

All I am saying is that we should have been more constructive about how we went in. Our plan was too vauge, and we went in full scale to fast. Retalliation is acceptable in my mind. That made sense. But we should have debated going into a full scale war more than we did.

And that's your opinion, and I disagree with it. I see it as an overwhelmingly necessary war.

RM, over 2,000 Americans have lost their lives fighting an (in my mind) ill-planned war. We could have prevented some of those deaths. We didn't. I want to make this clear:

I will agree with you that the war could have been planned a bit better, but nonetheless, the war was still necessary, and those 2000 troops died for a number of good reasons.


I support the troops. I support the cause. I support freedom.

I do not support the planning of the war. I do not support the course of the war.

Alright; again, your opinion on it that I disagree with, and nothing is going to change either of our opinions.

2. Well. Meirs is gone. So there goes that debate. Guess we have to wait for a new nomination

3. I agree that the money is being distributed ineffectively. And that it is the state's responsibility. The problem is, people have been increasingly turning to the FEDERAL govenment when they need something. This has been something happening since the New Deal.

And they should NOT. They shouldn't turn to the federal government for everything; that's a problem if people are. It's the state's responsiblity, not the federal government's.

Perhaps a better solution is for the Federal government to outline a way for the states to take over more responsibility. Whatever the solution, it isn't going to be immediate.

There is no need for the federal government to outline something that is already in place. That state government's just have to stop relying on the government if they are. That's ALL.

And I do need to find you that article...

As for the arts- they are very important. They can be very relaxing, rejouvinating (again, my vocabulary may be good, but I can't spell woth beans ), challenging, and it encourages creative thinking. In that way it assists students in all their other classes.

And money should go into it, but it shouldn't be a required course from the federal level (although STATES and DISTRICTS can decide to require these, if they wish). Federal money need not be distributed directly to the arts, but each state should get a certain amount of money to distribute however they want, with 65% of that money going to the classroom--to be distributed to the arts if they want, etc.

Buracrats. I think.

4. I was too young to remember any scandal by the Democrats. But if there was, the Republicans had just as much of an opportunity to call them on it. But they didn't. Or they didn't make a big enough deal of it. If there is a strong enough, or serious enough possibility that officials of Dlay, Rove, and Cheny's importance it should be investigated. And again, we don't know wether or not a crime was committed. We'll see how the trials turn out.

[b]I was also too young to really rememeber this stuff, but I've studied up on it, however, and know that in many of these cases the media wouldn't make a big deal out of it at all, and that's why they weren't really pushed out into a big deal like this is--the media wouldn't go after the Democrats like that.
However, I'm not debating Rove here anymore. There's a topic just for it. And it's quite clear that it's just a witch hunt for Delay, but that doesn't relate to the President's approval rating, so I'm done arguing it.


And you at least knew what I ment about impeachment

And I never accused you of putting a spin on things. But we've interpreted things differently, which is interesting.

It's facinating how we can spin different conclusions out of such similar sources.

Oh, and for the record, I don't consider myself a Democrat. I don't like their attitude.
[/b]

But you are a liberal. Close enough.



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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 6:36 pm    

1. I try to be careful what I say about topics I don't know much about, but sometimes I slip

Quote:
And we DID have a plan, however it was not expected how big the post-war stuff would be. They couldn't have anticipated this. No way.

Quote:

I will agree with you that the war could have been planned a bit better, but nonetheless, the war was still necessary, and those 2000 troops died for a number of good reasons.


Can I claim a minor victory on that point?

Quote:
Alright; again, your opinion on it that I disagree with, and nothing is going to change either of our opinions.

Well, we agree to disagree But we can still try to prove our points!

2. I don't agree with people turning to teh federal govenment for help all the time, but that is what they are doing. And some of it has to do with the fact that local politics can be very confusing to some people (There are about 87,000 governing systems in America!).

And what I ment by an outline, is just for to govenment to tell the states what they expect to see, and some suggestion on how to accomplish it - not a manditory list of accomplishments the schools need to make. I say this because I think that some of the state educational systems are becoming a bit dependent on Federal guidelines.

Yeah, buractats do tend to get in the way sometimes. Mixed blessing I suppose.

3. It may also be the political climate. To the general public it seemed like the Clinton administration was functioning well, there were no major mistakes or issues that hadn't already been happening. For this administration however, a lot of things have gone very wrong in the past few months (not all of which are their fault) and that leaves the public wanting to know *why*.

I think of interpreting as being a logical deduction, while a spin is putting an intentional bias on an issue. But that's just me

I like to think that I'm a moderate liberal. Not as bad as a liberal democratic or ... dang. I can't remember the titles of the political sectrum. Oh well. One of the liberals who hovers closer to the centrist line


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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 6:42 pm    

TrekkieMage wrote:
1. I try to be careful what I say about topics I don't know much about, but sometimes I slip

Quote:
And we DID have a plan, however it was not expected how big the post-war stuff would be. They couldn't have anticipated this. No way.

Quote:

I will agree with you that the war could have been planned a bit better, but nonetheless, the war was still necessary, and those 2000 troops died for a number of good reasons.


Can I claim a minor victory on that point?

No. I said a BIT better. Key word. It was necessary and we DID have a plan. However, it could have been planned a BIT better. Don't spin my argument.

Quote:
Alright; again, your opinion on it that I disagree with, and nothing is going to change either of our opinions.

Well, we agree to disagree But we can still try to prove our points!

2. I don't agree with people turning to teh federal govenment for help all the time, but that is what they are doing. And some of it has to do with the fact that local politics can be very confusing to some people (There are about 87,000 governing systems in America!).

I don't see that that's what they're doing--although they are doing a bit too much, I'll give you that. (ie the hurricanes)

And what I ment by an outline, is just for to govenment to tell the states what they expect to see, and some suggestion on how to accomplish it - not a manditory list of accomplishments the schools need to make. I say this because I think that some of the state educational systems are becoming a bit dependent on Federal guidelines.

They should know it already. No reason to list an outline.

Yeah, buractats do tend to get in the way sometimes. Mixed blessing I suppose.

3. It may also be the political climate. To the general public it seemed like the Clinton administration was functioning well, there were no major mistakes or issues that hadn't already been happening. For this administration however, a lot of things have gone very wrong in the past few months (not all of which are their fault) and that leaves the public wanting to know *why*.

I would disagree with that. I think Clinton was a failure and that Bush has done great (not that he hasn't made mistakes, but no president--no one--is perfect). But it's very much bias that comes into play there, although I could argue different points of all of it. I'll admit that I've been mad at him lately, but NOT for the reasons you have.

I think of interpreting as being a logical deduction, while a spin is putting an intentional bias on an issue. But that's just me

Spinning is changing the facts to suit your side.

I like to think that I'm a moderate liberal. Not as bad as a liberal democratic or ... dang. I can't remember the titles of the political sectrum. Oh well. One of the liberals who hovers closer to the centrist line


You seem very liberal to me.



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Arellia
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Joined: 23 Jan 2003
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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 6:56 pm    

It seems odd to me that most people either hail Clinton as great or put him down for being a failure. I don't understand either argument. I'd like to know more about him...why was he a failure, and Bush only made some mistakes? Did Clinton not do some good things? I.E., signing the nanotechnology initiative...that I see as good. Did he do everything so wrong, or was he like Bush in that he did some wrong and some right?

And no, I don't want to hear about the sex junk. That was disgraceful, but means nothing in regards to how he ran the government.


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TrekkieMage
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Joined: 17 Oct 2004
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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 7:17 pm    

^I don't see it as either. Neither Clinton nor Bush were/are perfect. It's just a matter of the political climate. But that's just me.

RM:

(I'm just numbering these to make it easier to read)

1. I was teasing a bit

I'm not spinning your argument. I read what you said. We both agree that they had a plan. You think it was a pretty good on with a few small holes, I think that it was a poor plan that failed to account many factors.

2. Why do they blame the Federal govenment? Because it is the President we see on the news everynight. It's the national and global politics we see on the front page of the newspaper. People talk about the national government all the time, but the States aren't getting as much coverage. Also, things like McCulloch v. Maryland have been giving more power to the national government.

As for the federal outline: There is a big difference in what they should know and what they do know. I strongly agree that they should already know, but that doesn't mean that they do.

3. I agree with what Exalya said. And I think that your statement is very biased. Clinton wasn't a complete failure, and neither is Bush. But the current political climate is that people want to know why so many things have gone wrong. And they are just looking to those in charge for a reason.

And I am liberal. I just fall more torwards the center of the spectrum. You are a moderate/strong (can't think of the word!!) conservative, of course I'm going to seem very liberal to you


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Republican_Man
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PostThu Oct 27, 2005 7:45 pm    

I'll get to Clinton when I have more time.

TrekkieMage wrote:
^I don't see it as either. Neither Clinton nor Bush were/are perfect. It's just a matter of the political climate. But that's just me.

RM:

(I'm just numbering these to make it easier to read)

1. I was teasing a bit

I'm not spinning your argument. I read what you said. We both agree that they had a plan. You think it was a pretty good on with a few small holes, I think that it was a poor plan that failed to account many factors.

2. Why do they blame the Federal govenment? Because it is the President we see on the news everynight. It's the national and global politics we see on the front page of the newspaper. People talk about the national government all the time, but the States aren't getting as much coverage. Also, things like McCulloch v. Maryland have been giving more power to the national government.

As for the federal outline: There is a big difference in what they should know and what they do know. I strongly agree that they should already know, but that doesn't mean that they do.

No excusel, for the first part. And too the McCullock v. Maryland stuff, that's wrong because the federal government shouldn't have more jobs than it needs to.
And there's no reason to do it, because the state governments do know what their responsabilities are. They're just lazy and hope that the federal government does anything for them. Therefore, there's no reason to present an outline. There we agree to disagree.


3. I agree with what Exalya said. And I think that your statement is very biased. Clinton wasn't a complete failure, and neither is Bush. But the current political climate is that people want to know why so many things have gone wrong. And they are just looking to those in charge for a reason.

Tell me, did I ever say that he was a complete failure? I meant he was just a failure--NOT a complete and utter failure. He did a few good things, but that's it. Maybe failure's too strong a word. It's more that he just wasn't a good president overall. Political climate has absolutely nothing to do with it.


And I am liberal. I just fall more torwards the center of the spectrum. You are a moderate/strong (can't think of the word!!) conservative, of course I'm going to seem very liberal to you


Well, I'm more than a moderate. I'm very conservative, just not near the extremist right. My parents are moderates, and even they would find you quite liberal, which you are. There's no reason to deny it.



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