| Would you destroy the caretakers eray or not? |
| Yer i would. |
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56% |
[ 17 ] |
| Dunno... Maybe... |
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10% |
[ 3 ] |
| No not wouldn't of... |
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33% |
[ 10 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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Lord Borg
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 11214
Location: Vulcan Capital City, Vulcan
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 Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:22 pm |
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Actually, I would have found a way to use it, then have a torpedo on a timer to blow the place up. But I dunno.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:34 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | Sorry prankish, but who's to say then that the Kazon also wouldn't board Voyager on the Ocampa Homeworld? That idea just wouldn't work.
Janeway didn't jump the gun on the Kazon threat. And nobody ever said anything about the Kazon "ruling" the DQ. It was right of her to at least TRY and protect an entire species. It at least bought the Ocampa more time to figure out a more long term plan. It's called having a heart. And she does have a brain. All of her ideas work out. Come on.  |
But the kazon don't even have transporters. That isn't possible. Besides they were dealing with one kazon sect (the oglama), not the entire kazon race.
The point is, Janeway didn't even try beyond simply destroying the array. Destroying the array did not change the fate of the ocompa. Even if I HAD to destroy the array, I would stay behind and at least give the ocompa technology and offer a relocation to an M class world.
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Jeff Miller
Fleet Admiral
Joined: 22 Nov 2001
Posts: 23947
Location: Mental Ward for the Mentaly Unstable 6th floor, Saint John's 1615 Delaware Longview Washington 98632
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:58 am |
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Like I said before I would just get my people home, I'm not in the business of saving races that I don't even know. I would get home but find a way for that array to self destruct just after I used it. I value my crew above anyone else. Thats why I loved the Equinox crew. They did whatever possible to save themselfs.
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7of9_made it awesome
Captain
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 616
Location: London
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:57 pm |
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this will sound evil i wouldn't.
In their position the spieces that voyager saved (i forget their name) would most likely of not helped voyager....
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:45 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | But the kazon don't even have transporters. That isn't possible. Besides they were dealing with one kazon sect (the oglama), not the entire kazon race.
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Yes. We know that they do not have transporters. That's why they SO desperately wanted it from Voyager. But there's more than one way to enter a Starship you know. There's an airtight door, like the one to the Cargo Bay, right next to the shuttle bay entrance, there's one at the rear of the bridge...Sheesh, why not, the ship doesn't mean anything to them, blow a hole in the hull, that's a shure fire way into the ship...
| 7of9_made it awesome wrote: | | In their position the spieces that voyager saved (i forget their name) would most likely of not helped voyager.... |
Yes, while this may be true, that's what makes the Federation so much better than any other alliance out there. We have a heart. We help those who are in need.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:26 pm |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: |
Yes. We know that they do not have transporters. That's why they SO desperately wanted it from Voyager. But there's more than one way to enter a Starship you know. There's an airtight door, like the one to the Cargo Bay, right next to the shuttle bay entrance, there's one at the rear of the bridge...Sheesh, why not, the ship doesn't mean anything to them, blow a hole in the hull, that's a shure fire way into the ship...
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I'm not sure what your getting at here. The kazon trying to enter the array or voyager? I would think it very hard for them to enter the array. Why would the array even need airlock doors or cargo bays? As for them entering voyager, I guess the crew would need to defend against such an attack. Remember it would be the crew helping the ocompa though. They risked themselves to be stranded in the DQ in the first place I don't see this as a major risk in comparison lol
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:20 am |
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U said take the technology off the array, adapt it to a shuttle, send the shuttle to the AQ, and land Voyager on the Ocampa planet and wait until starfleet uses the technology on the shuttle to send more ships to the DQ... That's what you said, that's where I'm coming from.
| PrankishSmart wrote: | Ok I would have done something completely different than either.
I would have not destroyed the array and also would have not returned back the the alpha Q immediately. I would have set course back to the ocompan home world and remained in orbit or landed and assist the ocompa any way possible. What Janeway did, destroying the array then simply leaving was not helping the ocompa because they had no replicator technology or renewable energy so they were going to die.
After a couple of weeks I would return to the array in a shuttle with an away team and study the technology that is capable of transporting ships across the galaxy. Assuming I could fit it to a shuttle to return to the alpha Q and I would strip the array of the tech and leave it on voyager or the ocompa homeworld under lock and key. The shuttle (assuming the tech is adaptable) return to the federation with all the info on the technology so Starfleet could possible send ships back using the same technology.
I would then offer the ocompa homeworld federation membership and hopefully the federation could gain presence in ocompan system using the arrays technology to send ships back and fourth. Then federation space would grow exponentially outward from the ocompan system. |
this is what I'm going on.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:31 am |
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In that case I stand by what I said. It would only be a minor risk compared to the fact they are stranded in the DQ anyway.
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~Voyager Fanatic~
Super Genius
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 1787
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:46 am |
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I would be reluctant to destroy the array as i would be leaving my family and friends. Although thousands of lives outweigh the lives of 150 people, i would be reluctant ,but i would still do it as it would be ethically right.
-------signature-------
Disembodiment is the epitome of perfection...
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:10 am |
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| ~Voyager Fanatic~ wrote: | | I would be reluctant to destroy the array as i would be leaving my family and friends. Although thousands of lives outweigh the lives of 150 people, i would be reluctant ,but i would still do it as it would be ethically right. |
But all those thousands of lives are still going to die simply destroying the array was not the answer.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:26 pm |
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But at least TRYING to save those lives is the point. To quote Ambassador Spock, "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few."
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:41 pm |
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Trying would have been to stay behind with them if at least only for a year.
They simply left by the end of the episode.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:59 pm |
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What fun would the series be if they stayed behind for a year? Not to mention the fact that they bought them more time. It's not like Voyager could have helped much more. And I'm sure that the crew would not have agreed with Janeway staying there. Let alone her decision to stay in the DQ, but they overcame that. But her waiting a year for nothing...? Nope. That's wasted time. Not to mention one word...mutiny.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:45 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | What fun would the series be if they stayed behind for a year? Not to mention the fact that they bought them more time. It's not like Voyager could have helped much more. And I'm sure that the crew would not have agreed with Janeway staying there. Let alone her decision to stay in the DQ, but they overcame that. But her waiting a year for nothing...? Nope. That's wasted time. Not to mention one word...mutiny. |
With the fact that they probably didn't do that because of the writer�s decision to start the series exploring, I don't think it would have been 'wasted time'. Staying behind for some time to help the ocompa and at the very least offer relocation to a habitable world SHOULD have been offered by Janeway. They WERE going to die in 5 years that was fact from the episode and can't be argued. The planet was uninhabitable without a caretaker. Staying behind and destroying the array only prolonged the inevitable. Maybe if they didn't destroy the array and got home with the tech, the kazon could get hold of the technology and turn the ocompa into slaves or something, then a resistance would form in a few years and they would free themselves and gain technology.
Janeway made a prediction. That�s all it was there was no way to see the future as fact and strand her crew and ship.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:01 am |
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You're not sticking with what you have said above...
| PrankishSmart wrote: | | the kazon could get hold of the technology and turn the ocompa into slaves or something |
Yet above, you clearly state your opinion saying that the Kazon are far too inferior to be able to think about using the technology.
Besides...the Kazon aren't interested in making the Ocampa slaves. They want that underground haven. They want its resources. Not to say they might not turn the Ocampa into slaves, but that's not their primary goal.
Janeway made what prediction?
There is no fact that the Ocampa would die in 5 years. Yes, it was said that if nothing is done, then they would indeed perish.
Yes, sticking around for a year doing nothing would be a waste of time. And the Ocampa would not have left. They didn't know the Caretaker died. They wouldn't leave his protection that they still thought was there. So trying to do that would have been futile.f
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:10 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | You're not sticking with what you have said above...
| PrankishSmart wrote: | | the kazon could get hold of the technology and turn the ocompa into slaves or something |
Yet above, you clearly state your opinion saying that the Kazon are far too inferior to be able to think about using the technology.
Besides...the Kazon aren't interested in making the Ocampa slaves. They want that underground haven. They want its resources. Not to say they might not turn the Ocampa into slaves, but that's not their primary goal.
Janeway made what prediction?
There is no fact that the Ocampa would die in 5 years. Yes, it was said that if nothing is done, then they would indeed perish.
Yes, sticking around for a year doing nothing would be a waste of time. And the Ocampa would not have left. They didn't know the Caretaker died. They wouldn't leave his protection that they still thought was there. So trying to do that would have been futile.f |
Who knows for sure what the kazon would have done. I would have imagined they would be intrested in the technology of the array to perhaps harness energy and create replicator technology to create water. I did say that it would take a lot of time to exploit that technology sorry if I wasn't clear on that. The choice Janeway made too about 1 or 2 minutes of time to decide to stay in the DQ and destroy the array. That is bad command. She should have retreated and came up with a plan a,b and c. Gather intellegence about the kazon's intentions.
Janeway didn't even offer anything to the ocompa either. Who knows if they would have left or not? Kes left because she was intrested in exploring. Maybe there are more ocompans who are intresting in seeing more too? That would have at least gave greater chance of continuation of the species existance. She could have offered a trade of technology intellegence that could have gave the odds of survival for the ocompa a lot better.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:24 am |
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What makes you so sure that they wouldn't have done it unless can read minds no offense... Kazon was the bad people not Janeway. She did the right thing. It may not be in your eyes but it was right thing. Not trying to be mean or anything.
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Theresa
Lux Mihi Deus
Joined: 17 Jun 2001
Posts: 27256
Location: United States of America
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| Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:40 am |
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There's no doubt in my mind she did what she thought was best, but that doesn't necessarily make it the right thing.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:28 am |
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| Leo Wyatt wrote: | | What makes you so sure that they wouldn't have done it unless can read minds no offense... Kazon was the bad people not Janeway. She did the right thing. It may not be in your eyes but it was right thing. Not trying to be mean or anything. |
There are always other choices that are no so obvious at first. It's not like she was only faced with 2 choices.
We never even got to see anymore of the ocompa than just the one episode. What happened to them? Isn't their species (and the caretakers) the whole reason voyager got dragged into the mess to begin with?
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:43 am |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Janeway didn't even offer anything to the ocompa either. Who knows if they would have left or not? Kes left because she was intrested in exploring. Maybe there are more ocompans who are intresting in seeing more too? That would have at least gave greater chance of continuation of the species existance. She could have offered a trade of technology intellegence that could have gave the odds of survival for the ocompa a lot better |
The Ocampa weren't interested in exploring. If memory serves, it's clearly obvious in the episode that the Ocampa weren't interested in exploring. Hence the fact they didn't try to leave the compound. Don't use Kes as an example, she also wasn't even a year old when she did so. So, she was still very young compared to the average Ocampa.
Besides, Janeway didn't owe anything to the Ocampa...She destroyed the Array to prevent the Kazon from getting access to the technology. The Caretaker was already dead, so it's not like she sentenced the Ocampa to death. The Caretaker did, when he screwed up their planet. Janeway owed absolutely nothing to the Ocampa.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:16 am |
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| Voyager2004 wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | Janeway didn't even offer anything to the ocompa either. Who knows if they would have left or not? Kes left because she was intrested in exploring. Maybe there are more ocompans who are intresting in seeing more too? That would have at least gave greater chance of continuation of the species existance. She could have offered a trade of technology intellegence that could have gave the odds of survival for the ocompa a lot better |
The Ocampa weren't interested in exploring. If memory serves, it's clearly obvious in the episode that the Ocampa weren't interested in exploring. Hence the fact they didn't try to leave the compound. Don't use Kes as an example, she also wasn't even a year old when she did so. So, she was still very young compared to the average Ocampa.
Besides, Janeway didn't owe anything to the Ocampa...She destroyed the Array to prevent the Kazon from getting access to the technology. The Caretaker was already dead, so it's not like she sentenced the Ocampa to death. The Caretaker did, when he screwed up their planet. Janeway owed absolutely nothing to the Ocampa. |
Some would have been intrested in exploring surely. Just the impression we got from a few ocompa doesn't really speak for them all. It would only have taken a few ocompa to be relocated to prevent the extinction of their species.
Yes she did destroy the array to prevent the kazon from gaining the technology if I recall it was her intention to help the ocompa by the arrays destruction. But what i'm saying is she was blinded by any alternatives. You are under a false pretense that there were no alternatives to salvage the situation. The episode did not even show janeway even considering any alternatives! Thats why i'm putting it as bad command.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:56 pm |
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not enough time to consider alternatives. The Kazon were closing in on the array...I'll even go back and watch the episode tonight...so I can come back here with a fresh reminder of the episode...
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:22 am |
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| Caretaker wrote: | | ...so, I have initiated a self destruct program... |
| Janeway wrote: | | If you destroy the array, we'll have no way to get home. |
| Caretaker wrote: | | the ocampa's enemies cannot be allowed to control this installation. In minutes it'll be destroyed. You have to go. Go now! |
*minutes later after Kazon ship collides with array*
| Caretaker wrote: | | The Self destruct program has been damaged. Now this installation will not be destroyed. But it must be. The kazon must not be allowed to gain control of it. They will annilate the Ocampa. |
*Caretaker dies*
See, so the Caretaker was going to destroy the array anyway. Janeway just helped him because the program was taken offline when the Kazon ship crashed into the array.
Not to mention the fact that we learn in the episode itself, that Voyager couldn't transport the Ocampa even if they wanted to. They would have to dig and create more fractures in the infrastructure just to be able to transport. The sensors and transporters couldn't penetrate the infrastructure that the Ocampa lived in. Voyager would have to make new cracks thus possibly letting in more Kazon in the future.
Also, the Ocampa most likely would not die anyway in 5 years, because the Caretaker said "they would be forced to the surface..." meaning they would be able to leave the infrastructure, in time.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:31 am |
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Yeah yeah yeah I know that but check out my original idea in my first post. I don't want to go round and round in circles in the debate.
I still stand by the fact that there was a third option even if you don't see it as possible. Of course nothing could have been done for the ocompa afterwards in the short term. It would have to have been a long term commitment.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:37 am |
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I know what you're saying. But in your original post, you're assuming that there would have been different circumstances would you have been in Janeway's shoes. That's not a logical way to look at something when you think you would have done something different. What you did in your first post was "change" the situation so that the Kazon weren't an immediate threat to the array...and let's say perhaps that the Kazon weren't an immediate threat, the Caretaker activated a self destruct program...even if the Kazon weren't there at that very moment, he activated it, so they wouldn't be able to get it in the future.
So, in regards to your original post, you wouldn't have been able to return to the array in a shuttle weeks later with an away team to study the technology. It would still have been destroyed.
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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