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polo
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
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 Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:23 am real vs holodeck character + inconsistencies in the holodeck |
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I used to be into star trek in a really big way when i was about 12 (am now 22 - time flies!). I remember quite a few episodes, but i've forgotten a lot of the ins and outs of the little details. i'm now doing a module on science fiction as part of my english degree at uni, and one of the questions brought up in the seminar really got my brain ticking trying to remember what i'd seen. basically, the question was: can a holodeck character harm a real character? i remember in Fair Haven, Janeway was upset because she'd fallen in love with the barkeep and she realised it could never happen, aaaand i seem to remember an episode with naomi and her tree friend and another one that went slightly wrong (but i can't really remember much else) but i really can't think of many other things apart from that.... if there was a holodeck training programme, could a crew member actually get hurt in it? or was it one of those things where as soon as the programme was ended, the injury vanished with it? from the bits that i remember, it seems holodeck characters can hurt 'real' characters emotionally and mentally, but not physically... is that right?
cheers in advance for your replies - i just hate it when my memory fails me!
(oh yes, also, can anyone recommend any websites where i can watch episodes of star trek? i know places like CBS have them, but i live in england and they don't work for me over here  )
thanks again!
Polo
Last edited by polo on Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Thomas
Pool Princess
Joined: 08 Jul 2001
Posts: 19730
Location: Manchester
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| Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:16 pm |
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Holodeck programmes have things called "safety protocols" which prevent real people from getting hurt. However, they can override these protocols and turn them off, in which case they can be injured, or even killed on the holodeck,  The safeties have also been known to malfunction on occasion,  You should also check out Virgin1 if you want to watch Star Trek. They show pretty much all the series now, if I'm not mistaken. And you should have that channel as long as you have freeview.
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Gloss rhymes with hair!
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polo
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
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| Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:37 am |
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ooh fantastic!!! thanks!  thanks for the virgin heads up too! unfortunately, i can't get freeview where i am though, which is really annoying i thrived on tv-links till that was shut down. if i lived only half a mile up the road i could get freeview! typical! *huff*
Last edited by polo on Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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polo
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
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| Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:43 am |
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ok i've watched a few episodes: ( hollow pursuits (TNG), cathexis, fair haven and learning curve) and have a few more questions...
i dunno if this is just some of the general inconsistencies of star trek or what, but the characters have really different senses of awareness of what's going on
prime example being cathexis... janeway is talking to lord burley when harry cuts in on the communicator saying there's a problem- and she's talking to him and burley just stands there - he doesn't know that she's actually a starship captain and he's just there for entertainment does he? and if he thinks she's as 'real' as him in that reality, especially if everything that's going on around is in keeping with the period - then if a voice came out of nowhere, technically, he sould be like 'wtf? who's in my house? where's that voice coming from? who's mrs davenport talking to?' but he just stands there like nothing's happening..... how does that work? is there a thing where if a communicator/announcement thingy goes off, the programme just pauses? coz i don't think that happened in hollow pursuits.
(in fact in hollow pursuit, if memory serves, they couldn't get in contact with reginald barclay through his badge, and they had to ask the computer to locate where he was... which kind of implies that the badge doesn't work in the holodeck... but then laforge, riker and the counsellor go down there one of them gets a call through their badge... so that can't be the case.... gah! confusion!)
in fair haven, when they've been under attack and the ship is damaged, the holodeck is stuttering, the guy with the moustache vanishes and Maggie's flowers are flickering on and off and nobody bats an eyelid,and again in fair haven, when janeway calls up michael sullivan to alter him, he doesn't bat an eyelid about the fact he's in this wierd room with yellow lines everywhere and no sign of his pub.
but in cathexis.. or learning curve (think it's probably learning curve), when beatrice disappears, Henry demands to know what Janeway's done with his sister, so that must show SOME awareness of what's going on, right? so how come he's aware of what's going on and the others seem to be completley oblivious?.....
i don't know if ANY of my ramblings make sense but i'm sure there's a point/question in there somewhere about inconsistencies in the holodeck.
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luit14
Commodore
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 2232
Location: Come on in HEEERE! :P
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| Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:07 pm |
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure all of that is just inconsistency. The only one I can think of an excuse for is that when she is adjusting Michael Sullivan, she only brought up his "physical parameters," not the full character...
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Thomas
Pool Princess
Joined: 08 Jul 2001
Posts: 19730
Location: Manchester
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| Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:08 am |
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| polo wrote: | ok i've watched a few episodes: ( hollow pursuits (TNG), cathexis, fair haven and learning curve) and have a few more questions...
i dunno if this is just some of the general inconsistencies of star trek or what, but the characters have really different senses of awareness of what's going on
prime example being cathexis... janeway is talking to lord burley when harry cuts in on the communicator saying there's a problem- and she's talking to him and burley just stands there - he doesn't know that she's actually a starship captain and he's just there for entertainment does he? and if he thinks she's as 'real' as him in that reality, especially if everything that's going on around is in keeping with the period - then if a voice came out of nowhere, technically, he sould be like 'wtf? who's in my house? where's that voice coming from? who's mrs davenport talking to?' but he just stands there like nothing's happening..... how does that work? is there a thing where if a communicator/announcement thingy goes off, the programme just pauses? coz i don't think that happened in hollow pursuits.
(in fact in hollow pursuit, if memory serves, they couldn't get in contact with reginald barclay through his badge, and they had to ask the computer to locate where he was... which kind of implies that the badge doesn't work in the holodeck... but then laforge, riker and the counsellor go down there one of them gets a call through their badge... so that can't be the case.... gah! confusion!)
in fair haven, when they've been under attack and the ship is damaged, the holodeck is stuttering, the guy with the moustache vanishes and Maggie's flowers are flickering on and off and nobody bats an eyelid,and again in fair haven, when janeway calls up michael sullivan to alter him, he doesn't bat an eyelid about the fact he's in this wierd room with yellow lines everywhere and no sign of his pub.
but in cathexis.. or learning curve (think it's probably learning curve), when beatrice disappears, Henry demands to know what Janeway's done with his sister, so that must show SOME awareness of what's going on, right? so how come he's aware of what's going on and the others seem to be completley oblivious?.....
i don't know if ANY of my ramblings make sense but i'm sure there's a point/question in there somewhere about inconsistencies in the holodeck. |
The holodeck characters generally don't seem to notice when a call comes through the comm. to someone in the holodeck. There are other examples, like when Janeway is called to the bridge from her Da Vinci programme in early season four. The characters are programmed to believe that they exist in the world which the holodeck programme is re-creating and we can assume they are also programmed to be oblivious to certain signs that this is not the case. They are not aware that they are holograms, but in TNG when Data and Geordi were running Sherlock Holmes simulations, Geordi programmed the computer to make the character of Moriarty a match for Data. Making him as smart as Data allowed him to gain self-awareness and he tried to escape from the holodeck. I don't know the name of the episode(s) dealing with this, but it might be a good storyline to look into.
As for the other examples you mentioned, in "Fair Haven", the programme was destabilising because they had to take power from the holodeck grid unexpectedly, or something, but the computer seemed to compensate for this by making the characters see these fluxuations as a storm. The example you mentioned which you think is from "Learning Curve" can probably be explained by the malfunctions that were happening on the ship. When there are random malfunctions, presumably random protocols which control the holodeck will cease to function which could have unpredictable results. So the computer subroutine that makes the characters unaware of strange events unrelated to the story of the holodeck programme could have gone offline.
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Gloss rhymes with hair!
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polo
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
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| Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:24 pm |
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| Thomas wrote: | | the computer seemed to compensate for this by making the characters see these fluxuations as a storm. |
ah yes! good point! thanks for reminding me about that! the future really is a complicated place to live! so many good things to come, but so many more things that can break that are harder to fix than pumping up a tyre, or giving it a good old kick eh? all in all, i think it would be pretty cool to have a holodeck in real life, but i reckon if we had it now.... i dunno, i think we're a pretty corrupt society and would probably use it unwisely - while in star trek not everything is peachy, their morals seem to be a lot better and stronger than ours today...
hmm.... it's late and i'm decaffinated so again, apologies for the waffling and thanks for all your input! you've been great helps in clearing up some of these things for me!
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Captain Cirk
Junior Cadet
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 19
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| Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:30 pm |
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Isn't a holodeck just a rip-off of the matrix?! But more weak.
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polo
Freshman Cadet
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 7
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| Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:50 am |
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i'm pretty sure the holodeck came first - also, they're for completley different purposes if i remember rightly (i only saw the matrix once when it came out in the cinema) - the holodeck is purely for entertainment (and training), and the matrix is using people as a power supply... so i'd say no. But i'd listen more to what other people on here say rather than me coz i don't really know that much about either 
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