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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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 Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:00 am "this war is lost": US Democrat Leader |
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| Quote: | The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.
"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid told journalists.
Reid said he had delivered the same message to US President George W. Bush on Wednesday, when the US president met with senior lawmakers to discuss how to end a standoff over an emergency war funding bill. |
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070419184534.ileoeb47&show_article=1
So glad he is not my congressman. What an embarrassment for one of our public figures to admit defeat to terrorists. I don't care how bad we are doing over there, we will never admit defeat (at least I would hope). 
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:01 am |
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I think most major politicians realized a long time ago that we couldn't win this war. And most Americans are realizing it too. Would it be worse for our contry to pretend everything is okay and keep going, or admit we were wrong and get out?
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WeAz
Commodore
Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 1519
Location: Where you aren't
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:02 am |
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So you are stubborn? At least one Congressman has some balls, that he can stand up and say what most of the country is thinking.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:12 am |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | I think most major politicians realized a long time ago that we couldn't win this war. And most Americans are realizing it too. Would it be worse for our contry to pretend everything is okay and keep going, or admit we were wrong and get out? |
I don't care how blatantly obvious it is that we are in a hole that is miles deep, I despise the fact that a Congressman would come out and undermine our country by announcing to the world that America lost against terrorist. Just because someone steps out of line or says something that goes against the grain does not make them heroic or admirable. I find this disgraceful. I'm sure their is celebrating in Iran and some other countries though.
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TrekkieMage
Office Junkie
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:15 am |
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| Puck wrote: | | TrekkieMage wrote: | | I think most major politicians realized a long time ago that we couldn't win this war. And most Americans are realizing it too. Would it be worse for our contry to pretend everything is okay and keep going, or admit we were wrong and get out? |
I don't care how blatantly obvious it is that we are in a hole that is miles deep, I despise the fact that a Congressman would come out and undermine our country by announcing to the world that America lost against terrorist. I find that disgraceful. I'm sure their is celebrating in Iran and some other countries though. |
Is it wrong to state your opinion in a democratic society that supposedly prizes free speech?
And have we totally lost against terrorism if we loose in Iraq? Or have we just lost Iraq?
And I doubt they care about what one American congressman said. They're in the middle of a powder keg with a civil war raging. I think they're a little more worried about their lives right now.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:17 am |
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Reid isn't a Congressman; he's a Senator, and not just any Senator, but the Majority Leader. For him to be doubting our military to such an extent publicly just disgusts me.
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TrekkieMage
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:19 am |
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Why does it disgust you? Because he has an opinion other than Bush's? He's entitled, and I think it's wonderful that people are standing up for what they believe. That's what our government is designed to do.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:20 am |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | Is it wrong to state your opinion in a democratic society that supposedly prizes free speech?
And have we totally lost against terrorism if we loose in Iraq? Or have we just lost Iraq?
And I doubt they care about what one American congressman said. They're in the middle of a powder keg with a civil war raging. I think they're a little more worried about their lives right now. |
I just find it disgraceful that a Congressman would undermine our military like this and admit America's defeat to the enemy. It is just incomprehensible to me. I guess I just view it differently than you, but I find it horribly offensive. I never said that he couldn't say it though, but I am allowed to be disgusted that he did. Even if defeat is clear, it would be hard to come up with a circumstance where I would want our country's leaders to announce "boldly" our defeat.
As for losing against terrorism...well I am just saying in Iraq we are fighting against terrorists basically, and now we are admitting defeat to those terrorists. Ask the rest of the world whether they see this as admission of defeat to terrorism in general. I am concerned about our world image.
I think they care alot about what their governments feed them. Those governments feed their citizens anti-Americanism and now will feed them that America has admitted defeat. I don't like the idea of letting these people feel powerful
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Theresa
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:31 am |
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Weren't we informed when this all started that it would be warfare unlike anything we'd ever seen before? If so, how can he make such a statement? From the comments I've read, it seems that we're combining two different things, the war in Iraq, which yes, is a war on terror, and the "war on terror" itself.
If he solely means Iraq, then no, we haven't lost. We're stuck, and need to get out, yes, but didn't lose. I don't even really understand how he could come to that conclusion.
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TrekkieMage
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:38 am |
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Yes, it is reasonable to be offended by it. But I feel like it's just...off. I'm not sure how to phrase it reasonably right now.
I feel like Congress is making such a big deal about "boldly" announcing our defeat in order to try and get through to Bush that the American people and the American government aren't happy with this direction, and we have to change tactics now.
Terrorism is not just in a single country. It's everywhere, and we're going to have a hard time getting rid of it like this. If we were to pull our focus out of Iraq and focus on finding them before trying to destroy them we may have more success.
As for world image, I've had many discussions with foreign students here and frankly the majority of the world finds our behavior in Iraq rather disgraceful. I think that they would be far more impressed if we took the high road and admitted we can't win, then pulled out and focused our issues on rebuilding America. Our schools need help, our voting system could use some TLC (butterfly ballots anyone?), our automotive industry needs to be revamped, the budget needs to be fully addressed, and we need to look into ways of preventing more tradgedies like VT and Colombine from happening. And all the White House seems to talk about is the war and how we'll somehow pull a "win" out of thin air.
I apologize if I'm particularly venemous tonight...It's been a stressful week and I haven't had a chance to really vent at all o.O
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:43 am |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | Why does it disgust you? Because he has an opinion other than Bush's? He's entitled, and I think it's wonderful that people are standing up for what they believe. That's what our government is designed to do. |
I don't have time to make a longer response, but it disgusts me primarily for the fact that here we have a United States Senator declaring that the United States has been defeated in a war when our troops are still there. But what makes it even more vile is that this is the fricken Senate Majority Leader, the highest-ranking official in the upper house of Congress. What kind of a message do you think this sends to America's enemies when such a man is declaring abject defeat for the country? Even if we were losing - which we aren't - this isn't the kind of thing the Senate Majority Leader, or any official, for that matter, should be declaring. The lack of regard for our troops here disturbs me to no end.
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:46 am |
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| TrekkieMage wrote: | | we have to change tactics now. |
The only change you guys want is a direct course of there. You won't find anything else acceptable, no matter what it is, because the only thing that will satisfy the pullout crowd is just that - a pullout. That's the only change you'll accept. You aren't even giving Bush's and Petreas's new strategy a chance. You don't want a change in tactics, which the president has already given you - you want a method of retreat.
Besides, how can we "win" the war by getting out of there? The short answer is, we can't. It's not victory under such circumstances - it's abject defeat.
Last edited by Republican_Man on Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:47 am |
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I don't want people to go around saying we have won or are winning necessarily. I don't really care if they going around saying Iraq is a mess and we are in trouble, or if they say what we are doing now isn't working. Basically, I am apathetic towards any comment about Iraq except for absolutely owning up to defeat. It just doesn't connect in my mind and I don't see how anything beneficial will come from it.
I agree that Iraq is near to being a total disaster. Immediately pulling out though without offsetting it is going to be bad for the economy though, and I really hope that when it happens, whoever is in charge has some way of offsetting the damage it is going to do. I agree schools need ALOT of work. I would also love more focus on domestic problems, but again, this statement is just incomprehensible to me.
Just a sidenote...as for our automotive industry, if they can't get it together, they deserve to tank. It's not that hard for them to figure out what people want and what the problems are. This is a whole seperate topic though. 
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TrekkieMage
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:47 am |
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| Republican_Man wrote: | | TrekkieMage wrote: | | we have to change tactics now. |
The only change you guys want is a direct course of there. You won't find anything else acceptable, no matter what it is, because the only thing that will satisfy the pullout crowd is just that - a pullout. That's the only change you'll accept. You aren't even giving Bush's and Petreas's new strategy a chance. You don't want a change in tactics, which the president has already given you - you want a method of retreat.
Besides, how can we "win" the war by getting out of there? The short answer is, we can't. It's not victory under such circumstances - it's abject defeat. |
| Quote: | | don't have time to make a longer response, but it disgusts me primarily for the fact that here we have a United States Senator declaring that the United States has been defeated in a war when our troops are still there. But what makes it even more vile is that this is the fricken Senate Majority Leader, the highest-ranking official in the upper house of Congress. What kind of a message do you think this sends to America's enemies when such a man is declaring abject defeat for the country? Even if we were losing - which we aren't - this isn't the kind of thing the Senate Majority Leader, or any official, for that matter, should be declaring. The lack of regard for our troops here disturbs me to no end. |
How can we win this war at all? The majority eader in the senate standing up for the truth isn't despicable in my eyes. What is dispicable to me is the lack of regard for our troops lives. And what I see as vile is the fact that our president, the fricking leader of the United States, is fostering a sense of bipartisanship and bickering in the government by not compromising at all, or working to save our troops lives and dignity.
Yes, the only thing will satisfy the "pullout crowd" is retreat. Retreat isn't always a bad thing. In this case it will save American lives in a cause that we can never win. By pulling out we show that we are mature enough as a country to know when we messed up, and that we are mature enough to focus our efforts elsewhere and start licking our wounds.
There is no vicotry in staying in this kind of war - only death, destruction, and more bickering on the homefront.
Puck, I can see that. But I still feel as if the White House won't do anything to change plans or get our troops out unless we make a huge ruckus about it. Passive agressive tactics just don't seem to work well with this administration...
As for pulling out too quickly, yes, that is a problem. I don't think we should just yank all our troops out at once. What will probably be the best idea (and I'm not a military strategist, so I'm easily swayed on this point ) is to start moving all of our troops to a few pullout points and on a month by month basis start removing them.
True point about the auto industry - but it would help get the American mentality off being used to relativly cheap gas (compared to Europe) and onto more fuel efficient and emmisions efficient cars. And yes, there's enough there to discuss in a thesis paper
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La Forge
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:33 pm |
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Well, because I'm one of those "evil American-hating liberals who undermine American troops and blah blah blah" I'm glad to hear Reid admit that this war was a failure. While using the word "defeat" wasn't the best choice of words (I would call the war a "failure"), I agreed with what he said.
Someone mentioned trying to listen to Bush and them's new plans and tactics and to "give them a chance". How many more chances should we give him? It has been four years. I think that the Bush administration has had plenty of chances to fix the mess that is Iraq.
Also, I agree with TM, pulling out is the only logical thing left. And, apparently, most people think that when you say "pull-out", you mean leave in a heartbeat. No. That's idoitic and to think that is idiotic. No one is thinking of pulling-out like that. Like TM said, bring troops out at intervals. On a side-note, lengthening troop tours was genius. 
On another subject of the U.S.'s world image. Well...I think the current administration has done a good enough job to pretty much ruin our world image. Its true. America isn't respected anymore and it is easy to see why. Like TM said, most other nations don't agree with America's actions lately. I've spoken to a few foreigners m'self. Our world image is pretty much shot.
Lastly, I noticed someone (Puck, was it?) just made a comment regarding the auto industry. "...if they can't get it together, they deserve to tank. It's not that hard for them to figure out what people want and what the problems are."
Well, I noticed how you said that you felt "disgusted" by Reid's comment about the war. That comment of yours about the auto industry just disgusted me. Do you understand how bad the Michigan economy is right now? I'm not for big business or the auto industry (as a liberal, I'm for alternative fuel, hybrids, and whatnot), but, I realize how crucial it is to the MI economy. Yes, it is Michigan's fault for not diversifying its economy, however, its too late to talk about that now. With the fall of the auto industry, MI's economy would be utterly ruined, not that it isn't headed that way already. My dad, who works in the auto industry, just lost his job. Thousands of others are losing their jobs because of the auto industry right now. If the auto industry were to "tank", thousands and thousands of more people would lose their jobs. Yes, the auto industry needs to get fixed and fast, however, 1. the solution isn't as easy as you say and 2. allowing them to just "tank" isn't the right attitude.
Now, I'm sorry if that comment sounded rude or anything. It wasn't meant to be. I'm just pointing out how much it "disgusted" me. Sorry. It was kinda off-topic.
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Puck
The Texan
Joined: 05 Jan 2004
Posts: 5596
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:11 pm |
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| La Forge wrote: | Well, because I'm one of those "evil American-hating liberals who undermine American troops and blah blah blah" I'm glad to hear Reid admit that this war was a failure. While using the word "defeat" wasn't the best choice of words (I would call the war a "failure"), I agreed with what he said.
Someone mentioned trying to listen to Bush and them's new plans and tactics and to "give them a chance". How many more chances should we give him? It has been four years. I think that the Bush administration has had plenty of chances to fix the mess that is Iraq.
Also, I agree with TM, pulling out is the only logical thing left. And, apparently, most people think that when you say "pull-out", you mean leave in a heartbeat. No. That's idoitic and to think that is idiotic. No one is thinking of pulling-out like that. Like TM said, bring troops out at intervals. On a side-note, lengthening troop tours was genius.
On another subject of the U.S.'s world image. Well...I think the current administration has done a good enough job to pretty much ruin our world image. Its true. America isn't respected anymore and it is easy to see why. Like TM said, most other nations don't agree with America's actions lately. I've spoken to a few foreigners m'self. Our world image is pretty much shot.
Lastly, I noticed someone (Puck, was it?) just made a comment regarding the auto industry. "...if they can't get it together, they deserve to tank. It's not that hard for them to figure out what people want and what the problems are."
Well, I noticed how you said that you felt "disgusted" by Reid's comment about the war. That comment of yours about the auto industry just disgusted me. Do you understand how bad the Michigan economy is right now? I'm not for big business or the auto industry (as a liberal, I'm for alternative fuel, hybrids, and whatnot), but, I realize how crucial it is to the MI economy. Yes, it is Michigan's fault for not diversifying its economy, however, its too late to talk about that now. With the fall of the auto industry, MI's economy would be utterly ruined, not that it isn't headed that way already. My dad, who works in the auto industry, just lost his job. Thousands of others are losing their jobs because of the auto industry right now. If the auto industry were to "tank", thousands and thousands of more people would lose their jobs. Yes, the auto industry needs to get fixed and fast, however, 1. the solution isn't as easy as you say and 2. allowing them to just "tank" isn't the right attitude.
Now, I'm sorry if that comment sounded rude or anything. It wasn't meant to be. I'm just pointing out how much it "disgusted" me. Sorry. It was kinda off-topic. |
First, when I was talking about American world image, I was really meaning how our enemies see us. I don't really care what Europe thinks. I am just more concerned about boosting enemy moral by encouraging them saying "Look, America has lost in Iraq, they can loose elsewhere!" That's more of what I was thinking. Also, how amused they must be when they see our executive branch and president of the United States actively standing against them, but then they look at half of our other leaders who are defying our Commander in Chief and acting like they are already in office-visiting Syria and saying we have lost the war.
The auto industry isn't going to tank though, because the CEOs aren't stupid. I am for big business, they are good for everyone. This is just part of economics though. If you have an inferior product at higher prices, then that's just the way things work. I would love for them to do awesomely and make record profits like Exxon and other US companies, that way the government can tax them and pull in more money to take care of other problems. I was simply saying, if they can't figure out what to do they will go under. I suppose they "deserve" wasn't the right choice of words, its not like I have a death wish on American autos (the only thing I will ever buy are Chevy trucks). It's just an economic fact. If they are profit driven like every other company though, they'll figure something out. My dad has been laid off before too, so it's not like I can't empathize.
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Republican_Man
STV's Premier Conservative
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:00 pm |
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Question: What do pulling out and claiming defeat say to folks like Mark Robbins?
A little over a week ago John McCain was giving a speech on the campaign trail and talked about an encounter he had with this man. Here's what he said:
| Quote: | In closing, I'd like to bring to your attention the gallantry and patriotism of one American who served with distinction in Iraq, a Navy SEAL who refuses to quit his mission and let the country he loves so well suffer the terrible harm our defeat would entail.
Just a few days ago, Petty Officer First Class Mark Robbins' unit was ambushed outside Baghdad.
MCCAIN: During the ensuing firefight, he spotted an insurgent with an RPG and immediately stepped out from cover and exposed himself to enemy fire to take out the terrorist before he could fire.
He saved the lives of his comrades, but was gravely wounded as he did so. He was shot in the eye by another insurgent with an AK-47. The bullet exited the back of his head about three inches behind his ear.
He was initially knocked unconscious but came to, continued to fight. And then, despite the severity of his wound, walked to the evacuation helicopter.
He was eventually taken to Landstuhl military hospital in Germany. As is the custom of Navy SEALs, he was accompanied by one of his comrades, Petty Officer 2nd Class McLean Swink.
On our way home from Iraq, our delegation stopped in Germany for refueling and crew rest and I had the privilege of visiting some of our wounded at Landstuhl. I briefly stopped in Mark Robbins' room, but he was sedated and unable then to communicate. I spent a few moments there and talked to his buddy before I went to visit other wounded soldiers.
Not too long after I had left Mark's room, Petty Officer Swink found me and told me Mark was awake, and had asked to see me. So I returned.
When I entered his room and approached his bedside, he struggled with great difficulty to sit up, stiffened his body as if he were trying to stand at attention, grasped my hand tightly and wouldn't let go. And then he whispered to me not to worry, "We can win this fight. We can win this fight."
Mark, as another person observed, looks like the toughest kid on the high school football team. He's tough and brave and very young. But more than that, he's an inspiration to those who are only called upon to subordinate a temporary political advantage to the security of our good and great nation.
Petty Officer Mark Robbins, an American hero, believes we can still win this fight. I'll take his word for it, and accept my responsibility to help the cause he sacrificed so much to defend.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/11/AR2007041101074.html |
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La Forge
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:57 pm |
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| Puck wrote: | First, when I was talking about American world image, I was really meaning how our enemies see us. I don't really care what Europe thinks. I am just more concerned about boosting enemy moral by encouraging them saying "Look, America has lost in Iraq, they can loose elsewhere!" That's more of what I was thinking. Also, how amused they must be when they see our executive branch and president of the United States actively standing against them, but then they look at half of our other leaders who are defying our Commander in Chief and acting like they are already in office-visiting Syria and saying we have lost the war.
The auto industry isn't going to tank though, because the CEOs aren't stupid. I am for big business, they are good for everyone. This is just part of economics though. If you have an inferior product at higher prices, then that's just the way things work. I would love for them to do awesomely and make record profits like Exxon and other US companies, that way the government can tax them and pull in more money to take care of other problems. I was simply saying, if they can't figure out what to do they will go under. I suppose they "deserve" wasn't the right choice of words, its not like I have a death wish on American autos (the only thing I will ever buy are Chevy trucks). It's just an economic fact. If they are profit driven like every other company though, they'll figure something out. My dad has been laid off before too, so it's not like I can't empathize. |
I understand what you're saying. Sorry about snapping at you. Tensions have been kinda high around my house lately. I'll get back on topic, now.
Well, despite that lovely little speech by McCain, one soldier's heroics are not going to give me hope for this war being won. Also, though this isn't really related to my views of his speech, I've lost all respect for John McCain.
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Go Red Sox!
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Republican_Man
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| Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:16 pm |
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| Quote: | | I've lost all respect for John McCain. |
I can't blame you. Save for his stance on the war, I can't stand the man. But I respectfully disagree with your opinion on it. It's a war that has to be fought. There are all these analogies to Vietnam being made, but the real analogy will come if we pull out now and abandon the Iraqis to the mercy of the terrorists. We cannot allow Al Qaeda and the like to gain a foothold in that country. If we do, much will be lost and our efforts will have been in vain.
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Arellia
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| Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:23 pm |
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'Undermining the troops' and 'Doubting our military'... may I point out that very few people will say that the problems in Iraq are due to the troops, but rather they are due to the leadership. To generalize that the troops support what has been done, support this war, or see sense in its tactics, is wrong. I don't think anyone in the government is talking about the quality of our troops, because they're the best, and they know it. The troops have nothing to do with what's happened, because if we had a strategy to "win" in Iraq (reconstruct a country in our image, which is questionable at best) and told our troops what they needed to do, they would do it, and they would do a damn good job.
Problem is, we did in one sense "lose." We made many mistakes that have got us stuck in a country we have no business with, fighting the internal issues of the middle east that have been going on for centuries (I see less of an Al Quaeda/US conflict and more a Suni/Shia conflict). I don't like calling it a loss, because more than that, I don't think calling this a war is accurate either (And likewise, I wouldn't call it a "win" if Iraq was successfully transformed. We're not really defeating anyone, and we never could). Reid mispoke, but I agree with the sentiment, and that should be what counts.
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TrekkieMage
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| Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:42 pm |
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Very well said.
There are a lot of nuances in the words people use to describe this conflict that are misused.
I will agree that this is a conflict that we can't really win or loose. Right now we just seem stuck there trying to figure out exactly what we're doing.
Are we trying to set up a democracy? Because that doesn't signal an end to terrorism or even really send a signal to them - look at Algeria. They've made amazing progress almost all on their own torwards democracy, and yet just a few weeks ago there was a major terrorist bombing there.
Or are we trying to fight terrorism? Because how can we possibly fight them like this - on their home soil attempting to fight via a country, and terrorism isn't confined to borders. They fight differently than we do, and a full scale attack like this probably won't work. Something more covert would probably be more effective.
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Mulder
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| Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:39 pm Re: "this war is lost": US Democrat Leader |
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| Puck wrote: | | Quote: | The war in Iraq "is lost" and a US troop surge is failing to bring peace to the country, the leader of the Democratic majority in the US Congress, Harry Reid, said Thursday.
"I believe ... that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week," Reid told journalists.
Reid said he had delivered the same message to US President George W. Bush on Wednesday, when the US president met with senior lawmakers to discuss how to end a standoff over an emergency war funding bill. |
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070419184534.ileoeb47&show_article=1
So glad he is not my congressman. What an embarrassment for one of our public figures to admit defeat to terrorists. I don't care how bad we are doing over there, we will never admit defeat (at least I would hope). |
Correction, the war on terror was aimed at Afghanistan. The war in Iraq was to get rid of Saddam. But he is right, the war has been lost just like the wars in Vietnam and Korea.
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Theresa
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| Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:17 pm |
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^No, it wasn't "aimed at Afghanistan". There's even a movie out now with the name, "Axis of Evil".
"Terrorists, and those who harbor them". <---that's who it was for.
-------signature-------
Some of us fall by the wayside
And some of us soar to the stars
And some of us sail through our troubles
And some have to live with our scars
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