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Meverix
Sophomore Cadet
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
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 Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:45 pm Janeway's Reasoning |
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I'm not the biggest Voyager fan, but i'm slowly eating my way through the series, so bear with me if I make a few errors...
I'm sure its been talked about endlessly for ages, but, can you honestly agree with Janeways reasoning in some episodes?
'Tuvix', as an example. Now, I understand there are two different characters whose existences are threatened by Tuvix (in a sense), but if Tuvok and Neelix were so up about being seperated, wouldn't it have shown through in Tuvix's personality? And if not, why was this at least not considered by another character (the Doctor, for example).
Also, the ending for Year Of Hell seemed a little...off. I see no reason why destroying the Time Ship (since i don't remember its name) would reverse all of the effects it had. She destroyed it in the present, therefore it would no longer existent from that point onward. Meaning that its been stopped from doing further damage, however, this does not erase what it HAS done. I realise, also, that the ship had a defense against the effects of time, right? Well, this was taken down at some point during the battle, and its not like it suddenly disappeared back in time to when its defense was first raised. So, it was clearly, despite everything, destroyed in the present. Meaning nothing could be 'undone'.
Surely Janeway would've noted that? To me, at least, she spontaneously had the notion "Screw this, I'm gonna fly into the damn thing", and it just happened to work.
And I'm not even going to into her choices in Endgame, I know those episodes are of particular controversy anyway...
So...am I talking ****, or are some of Janeway's decisions a little unjustified?
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:32 am |
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Well truth been told we have had this type of discussion before so this will go in circles like the other one did. She did the best she could in those circumstances. She is a good captain rather anyone likes her or not. I will say more about my opinion a little bit later.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:27 am |
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^^
| Quote: | | She is a good captain rather anyone likes her or not |
What? This is your opinion right? All we have are opinions, some think she is a good captain and some think she is a bad captain. Your statement is completely off. All your doing by expressing such statements is putting your opinion or belief over as somehow more important than others on the forum.
About the YOH episode, it is a little strange I agree. I think the producers reasoning for this is that if the timeship is destroyed, it's temporal shields fail and all the effects somehow are reversed, amazingly along with voyagers own destruction? It's still strange though given their mission, even if they restored their empire 100% they wouldn't ever be able to leave their timeship's temporal shields without dissapearing and all their work being reversed.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:46 am |
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If you read instead of reading just one part that I will come back to explain.  I don't have time now but I will.
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:52 am |
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As for "Tuvix", it was a tough decision but I think that Janeway did the right thing. She had to choose between having Tuvix the way he was or restore two valuable colleaguse to normal again. She did choose to bring Tuvok and neelix back which was understanable. After all Tuvix was somewhat artificial and had been created by an accident while Tuvok and Neelix were two original persons and also two good friends to Janeway.
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Janeway26
Ensign, Junior Grade
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:09 pm |
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i think it is really hard decisions! and with heinsight it's probably easier!! but she is only human and prehaps these decisions were used to highlight that she is only human not a superhero!
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:32 pm |
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Yeah, I agree . But, there are those Janeway haters would disagree and they come bashing her. I could say more on this but it is not really worth it cause as I said there was a topic similar and everyone went into circles.
If I had more time, I would explain more into detail. I don't have time anymore like I use to. I hate it that I don't have time to debate this. Grrrr , having small amount of time rks me but oh well. I just go into details when I get the chance.
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Meverix
Sophomore Cadet
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 12
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:44 pm |
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| Janeway26 wrote: | | i think it is really hard decisions! and with heinsight it's probably easier!! but she is only human and prehaps these decisions were used to highlight that she is only human not a superhero! |
Now THAT's an answer I can understand. Star Trek uses alien races with alien concepts that have helped us understand what it is to be human, and what makes us so.
The only gripe with that explanation is, if the writers were aiming to show how human Janeway is, they ought to have done an episode or two around that specific concept, else it'll look inconsistent, as it has done...I've still at least two series to work through, maybe I'll find an episode relating to her humanity later on, and I wont be so irritated with some of her actions.
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EnsignSkelly
Lieutenant, Junior Grade
Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 113
Location: I'd bet you'd love to find that out...
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:48 pm |
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I think she made a wise choice with Tuvix. I know it was tough but i believe it was right. I mean, as the vulcans say "you must sacrifice the few for the many" and she did just that. Not to sure about yoh though.
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madlilnerd
Duchess of Dancemat
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 5885
Location: Slough, England
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| Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:12 pm |
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Splitting Tuvix was an unwise choice. Two mouths to feed instead of one is not a godsend in the delta quadrant.
Janeway is rash and spontaneous in decisions, or at least I believe that she is presented tihs way. Maybe the writers should of included some "this is janeway thinking about a decision for days" montages.
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Janeway26
Ensign, Junior Grade
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
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| Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:03 am |
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i think janeway behaviour is typical to any person in such situations! she gave her best and got her crew home! life is full of those difficult decisions for wrong or right!
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charlie
American Soldier
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 598
Location: In The United States
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| Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:28 pm |
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Giving the circumstances that she was in, I say she did the best that she could. Yeah she broke rules but I would have done the same in her position. There's not a perfect captain no matter how you look at it cause captains are only human. I believe you must sacrifice the few for the many like vulcans would have said.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:14 pm |
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Well she did get her crew home! May have taken seven years but she did it and she never gave up. People don't look at how she felt bad about certain things. All people want to do is perscuit her for being a female captain and making hard descisions that she would have to live with. It wasn't easy for her but she got by. Tuvok and Neelix never blamed her for getting them back .. Tuvix wasn't meant to be. The crew might have blamed her at first for getting stuch in the delta quandrant, but they realized that the captain did what was best. She saved innocent lives from an evil race. All certain people care about bash Janeway and how she made bad choices. But those choices saved innocent of lives! Don't even think for one minute that the crew blamed her cause they was right behind her. They was like a family. okay, I stay off this topic for a while. It can get a little touchy lolz
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Untitled
Commander
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 396
Location: abandoned
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| Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:11 pm |
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| Leo Wyatt wrote: | | Well she did get her crew home! May have taken seven years but she did it and she never gave up. |
- Her ultimate goal. Which I really do think - they were already home. It seems for many of the crew - partcularlly the Maquis, Paris, the Borg, Neelix they really didn't have that much in the alpha quadrant.
| Leo Wyatt wrote: | | It wasn't easy for her but she got by. |
- I completely agree. Think of how it would be like for you if you were in her shoes. I wouldn't have half her balls.
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:47 am |
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Yeah, what they said. I completely agree as well. It's pretty hard to say when someone is a bad captain when you haven't been in that situation yourself. Who knows what people can do and it's exactly what Charlie said, she was only human. Not all humans are perfect, so one shouldn't expect fictional characters on TV to be. Plus, if she made all the right decisions about things, the show would be pretty bland and boring.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:11 am |
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| Janeway26 wrote: | | i think it is really hard decisions! and with heinsight it's probably easier!! but she is only human and prehaps these decisions were used to highlight that she is only human not a superhero! |
It's not that people are comparing Janeway to a superhero. It's that Janeway is often compared to captains such as Picard & Sisko. Such comparisons are completely fair IMO, but put Janeway under bad light.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:34 am |
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Well Picard and Sisko wasn't in the Delta Quandrant for seven years so can't compare. Every Janeway hater wants to put Picard and Sisko on a high Pedalister. When no captain is perfect no matter who they are.
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:34 am |
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^If your talking about the difficulty of their jobs I don't think you can put that of Picard's and Sisko's any less difficult than Janeway's.
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Untitled
Commander
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 396
Location: abandoned
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| Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:40 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | ^If your talking about the difficulty of their jobs I don't think you can put that of Picard's and Sisko's any less difficult than Janeway's. |
- I wholeheartedly disagree. Their situations are very different, there for her decision making might ultimately be different as well.
Their all authority figures who all have to think how their decisions effect their crew. But Picard and Sisko had much more advantages to their side - they have other authority figures to follow. They've got allies that they know they can trust on their side.
Janeway doesn't have the luxery of surrendering to a higher authority - decisions, are ten times harder for her in that aspect. And also sometimes she did have to face the fact of making allies with their enemies in order to get by. The very first - Maquis & Starfleet.
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Voyager2004
Commodore
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 2070
Location: Silverdale, WA
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| Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:33 pm |
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| Meverix wrote: | | but if Tuvok and Neelix were so up about being seperated, wouldn't it have shown through in Tuvix's personality? |
No, because it was clearly established that the two personalities combined to be ONE individual...one personality. Not "two people inside of one head looking outward with no control."
| Meverix wrote: | | I see no reason why destroying the Time Ship (since i don't remember its name) would reverse all of the effects it had. She destroyed it in the present, therefore it would no longer existent from that point onward. |
I don't see how it DOESN'T make sense. She destroyed the temporal core, it therefore caused a temporal incursion within the ship and wiped out its entire history of being. So if it "erased itself" from the past, then the very first to the very last of its mission didn't exist. Therefore wiping out all it had done and then again sending Voyager back on its way.
| Untitled wrote: | | PrankishSmart wrote: | | ^If your talking about the difficulty of their jobs I don't think you can put that of Picard's and Sisko's any less difficult than Janeway's. |
- I wholeheartedly disagree. Their situations are very different, there for her decision making might ultimately be different as well.
Their all authority figures who all have to think how their decisions effect their crew. But Picard and Sisko had much more advantages to their side - they have other authority figures to follow. They've got allies that they know they can trust on their side. |
Thank you! I was JUST about to get to saying that... All three of their situations were different. All situations were unique...and quite honestly, in Picard's situation, how hard is it to "seek out new life" and not follow the book?
-------signature-------
"We all make our own Hell, Mr. Lessing. I hope you enjoy yours."
Kathryn Janeway - Equinox Pt 2
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PrankishSmart
Rear Admiral
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 4779
Location: Hobart, Australia.
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| Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:02 am |
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| Untitled wrote: | | Their all authority figures who all have to think how their decisions effect their crew. But Picard and Sisko had much more advantages to their side - they have other authority figures to follow. They've got allies that they know they can trust on their side. |
Completely wrong.
Have you ever seen TNG or DS9?
Picard and Sisko were never always following rules to the letter and never always had advantages to their side. Their jobs were just as hard, if not more difficult than Janeways. Picard and Sisko's descision making affected a LOT more than 150 people, and I don't see how you or anyone can convince otherwise.
Janeway is not as good as a captain as you are saying and she is not perfect like your suggesting. She more mistakes than that, a lot of bad descisions in my opinion.
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MakeItSo
Commander
Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Somewhere in California
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| Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:41 pm |
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| PrankishSmart wrote: | | Untitled wrote: | | Their all authority figures who all have to think how their decisions effect their crew. But Picard and Sisko had much more advantages to their side - they have other authority figures to follow. They've got allies that they know they can trust on their side. |
Completely wrong.
Have you ever seen TNG or DS9?
Picard and Sisko were never always following rules to the letter and never always had advantages to their side. Their jobs were just as hard, if not more difficult than Janeways. Picard and Sisko's descision making affected a LOT more than 150 people, and I don't see how you or anyone can convince otherwise.
Janeway is not as good as a captain as you are saying and she is not perfect like your suggesting. She more mistakes than that, a lot of bad descisions in my opinion. |
Yes, they had to make hard decisions as well, but since Voyager was the only Starfleet ship out in the Delta Quadrant for a good 6 years until the Equinox showed up, a lot of her decisions had to do with surviving out there. Especially with a ship like hers that wasn't even meant for deep space exploration missions. And a lot of her decisions had to do with the best routes that would lead back to the Alpha Quadrant and surviving. If it would have been easier on the crew to take a longer route if it was less dangerous, then she had to make that. Although going through Borg space to get home faster was very risky...Sisko and Picard may have had to deal with more than 150 people on their ships, but at least they had Starfleet and the Federation behind them to support them. Voyager's crew had no one.
And if it were Sisko or Picard that were lost in the Delta Quadrant, you never know what they would have done either. No one does. So you can't base your conclusions about Janeway and the good or the bad decisions that she made until you know what the other captains would have done. Sure she made some bad decisions, but Sisko and Picard have made bad decisions as well. That goes with being a captain, no captain makes the right decisions all the time. One person may agree with one decision while the other thinks that decision is totally absurd.
What I don't get is why people hate Janeway or Voyager so much, yet they belong to a site called startrekvoyager.com which centers a lot around Voyager and it's fans.
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Leo Wyatt
Sweetest Angel
Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 19045
Location: Investigating A Crime Scene. What did Quark do this time?
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| Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:11 pm |
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I agree totally with MakeItSo... Picard and Sisko wasn't in the delta quandrant for seven years! You don't know what they would have done.
I am through for now... This is just agggh! Too touchy of a topic... 
oh by the way I am not mad.. I'm calm 
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Founder
Dominion Leader
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 12755
Location: Gamma Quadrant
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| Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:54 pm |
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| MakeItSo wrote: | Yes, they had to make hard decisions as well, but since Voyager was the only Starfleet ship out in the Delta Quadrant for a good 6 years until the Equinox showed up, a lot of her decisions had to do with surviving out there. Especially with a ship like hers that wasn't even meant for deep space exploration missions. And a lot of her decisions had to do with the best routes that would lead back to the Alpha Quadrant and surviving. If it would have been easier on the crew to take a longer route if it was less dangerous, then she had to make that. Although going through Borg space to get home faster was very risky...Sisko and Picard may have had to deal with more than 150 people on their ships, but at least they had Starfleet and the Federation behind them to support them. Voyager's crew had no one.
First of all, VOY was built for deep space exploration missions. At least...it had the capability. You're thinking of the Nova class.
Second of all, the problem with Janeway was that she was often a hypocrite. She would say one thing is wrong, then do something else that is wrong. For example, Tuvix. She commited murder for personal gain, plain and simple. The EMH even refused to participate because it was against the Hippocratic Oath-to do no harm.
How about screwing the time line for personal gain? Not only did she do it for personal gain, she did it to save three people. Chakotay, Seven of Nine, and Tuvok. Thats it. At least when Harry Kim and Chakotay did it, it was to save the ENTIRE ship and crew. It was inconveivable that Janeway could be so dumb. I will say that Picard has displayed a dumb moment like this in Star Trek: Generations. We all know what part I'm talking about.
Picard and Sisko had the support of the Federation? You people make it sound like in every episode of Star Trek, when there was a problem, Sisko and Picard contacted an admiral for help. More often then not, they solved the problem alone.
And I would LOVE to see Janeway handle the Dominion. Species 8472 won't always be there to solve their major problems.
And if it were Sisko or Picard that were lost in the Delta Quadrant, you never know what they would have done either. No one does. So you can't base your conclusions about Janeway and the good or the bad decisions that she made until you know what the other captains would have done. Sure she made some bad decisions, but Sisko and Picard have made bad decisions as well. That goes with being a captain, no captain makes the right decisions all the time. One person may agree with one decision while the other thinks that decision is totally absurd.
We base our conclusions off of how they acted in their shows. Yeah, they all made bad decisions, but Janeway made A LOT. So many that it is inconcievable that she is a captain.
What I don't get is why people hate Janeway or Voyager so much, yet they belong to a site called startrekvoyager.com which centers a lot around Voyager and it's fans. |
Perhaps you VOY fans should leave the VOY topic area. You would find that there are other shows and topics for them as well... 
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Lynx
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
Location: The Lynx Empire
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| Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:16 pm |
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| MakeItSo wrote: |
What I don't get is why people hate Janeway or Voyager so much, yet they belong to a site called startrekvoyager.com which centers a lot around Voyager and it's fans. |
That has always surprised me too. 
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