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Zeke Zabertini
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 5:06 pm    My pledge to the world.

The following was originally going to be posted in the World News forum, but it turned out to really contain no news or relevant debate, so I chose to post it here instead because it's too good to just let go to waste.


Gas prices will not go down because of this. There's no practicable reason to even do it. Private transportation and industry is where most of this oil goes. Too much of it is going into the hands of those that use it least efficiently. Mass transportation must be expanded to save on oil, and personal vehicles severely restricted nationwide.

You interpret freedom as the freedom to buy, the freedom to waste, the freedom to gratify yourself. When freedom hurts society, freedom has gone too far. The United States government must take control of these money leaks or we'll all pay the price. We must conserve and recycle, not expend. Conservatives ruin us by distracting us, ignoring the real issues and substituting them with their own motives. For individuals and society, now and in the future, we must progress beyond the pettiness of our small lives and begin working towards a future in which we can all live happily.

Instead of trying to eliminate foreign dependance on oil by drilling here, eliminate it by finding alternative energy. Instead of spending money to fight others' wars for them, save it by keeping young men and women at home. Instead of bickering over the effects of pollution, improve methods for cleaning it up and preventing more. Republicans are great at solving the problems that they want to solve and fooling others into thinking they're acting for the good of everyone when in fact they act in direct violation of the very principles they preach so loudly as justification for their actions.

This debate on oil drilling is just one of many like it in which the conservatives attempt to pass off a bid for private profit as an attempt to help the average worker. It is a farce, and a poor one at that. I cannot make those who believe the lie disbelieve. I cannot even prove half the lies are not truthful. Republicans call upon moral authority to justify their views for a lack of logical capability and realistic perception. I now say this to Republican_Man, LightningBoy, and all their kind with all three under my command:

"What you believe is your right to believe. What you say I cannot argue. What you desire is all your own, but I will vye for power. I will seek the power to bring true justice to this American nation. I will seek the power to do away with the products of greed and corruption. I will seek the power to mute the voice of business, mute the voice of religion, and give the voice back to the individuals behind the organizations; and no matter how many times I am damned for it I will not shift from my knowledge of what I think is right! I stand, now, with my morals, and though I may never have the power to carry out my will, the fire in my soul will never die out! Mine is a personal vandetta for all of this nation and all of humanity! Let your swords cut me through and through, for another will rise in my place. For all people and all religions, I submit my vision. Mock me if you will, belittle me if you will. Paradise eludes only those blind to its true meaning, what it means for everyone."


Last edited by Zeke Zabertini on Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:11 pm; edited 3 times in total


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Republican_Man
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 5:11 pm    

I admire that you have such passionate views, but I just simply disagree with them
But your attack on Republicans...me no-likey



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Annatar
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 5:22 pm    

Well spoken! Except for the freedom.. If anything, there's a lack of freedom in the United States as of late. Always with the "Don't say that" and the "protection" of people with frivilous institutions such as the FCC. Freedom of expression is frowned upon above all these days. Wouldn't you say?

Overall, well said.. And Republican_Man, there's a difference between "Conservatives" and "Republicans" you know.


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Theresa
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 5:28 pm    

I've been asked by the CC mods to keep the more "serious" stuff in WN, so... here you go.


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zero
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 5:29 pm    

I think it would be so cool to see Republican Man and Zeke Zabertini go head to head in becoming president of the united states.

My vote would go to Zeke.

And very well said


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Republican_Man
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 6:19 pm    

Annatar wrote:
Well spoken! Except for the freedom.. If anything, there's a lack of freedom in the United States as of late. Always with the "Don't say that" and the "protection" of people with frivilous institutions such as the FCC. Freedom of expression is frowned upon above all these days. Wouldn't you say?

Overall, well said.. And Republican_Man, there's a difference between "Conservatives" and "Republicans" you know.


Didn't notice the Conservative part

but what I was talking about was
Quote:
Republicans call upon moral authority to justify their views for a lack of logical capability and realistic perception.



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Puck
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 6:25 pm    

Your ideas remind me too much of communism, and personally I don't really like them at all. I do however respect the fact that you at least take the time to think about what you believe and formulate it, instead of just adopting "democrat" or "republican" veiws.

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Founder
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 7:28 pm    

Zeke? You seem like a cool guy, but your political affiliation(I'm pretty sure you're Communist or something damn close to it) is destructive. Again I mean no offense, but how dare you spout off all that Anti-Republican LIES? You didn't even back up anything with proof. You're just like "Conservatives lie and blah blah blah". Half of the post was "I can't offer proof or disaude your opinion." Wow, that wasn't a good post, it was just an attack. Never once have I made a topic about how communists lie and God knows Communists do A LOT. You all come forward with tales of freedom and equality for all. Yeah, freedom and equaltiy for those who support their corrupt government and evil visions for a future that leaves them in power and screws over anyone else. Cuba is a prime example of Communism in power. I hate to say this about my own country, but its a poor S**t hole. Why? Thanks to the lovely perks communism offers. Poverty, pain, and death. Yay for Communism! Thankfully Communist nations are dieing out. Many will argue with me and be like "Communism is great!" Is it really? No it isn't. I hate the whole idea of giving everything I have to someone else. "Its your brother/sister human!" I don't care. What is mine, is mine. I will give what is mine to those who earn my trust and loyalty. Humans are not a perfect race. So the idea of sharing everything with anyone is sickening. Its not like that happens anyways, because once a Communist government is put into place then the Governement gets everything. You might say "China is a powerful and communist nation! See it works!" You mean the country where you'll get mowed down by a tank for saying something different from the government? Yeah...it works. I'm sorry to all the socialists in this site, because a lot of them are actually cool. But I know Communism firsthand, and looking at it disgusts me. I'll gladly take the "evil" Republicans over the "pure" communists.

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Republican_Man
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 7:52 pm    

Founder wrote:
Zeke? You seem like a cool guy, but your political affiliation(I'm pretty sure you're Communist or something damn close to it) is destructive. Again I mean no offense, but how dare you spout off all that Anti-Republican LIES? You didn't even back up anything with proof. You're just like "Conservatives lie and blah blah blah". Half of the post was "I can't offer proof or disaude your opinion." Wow, that wasn't a good post, it was just an attack. Never once have I made a topic about how communists lie and God knows Communists do A LOT. You all come forward with tales of freedom and equality for all. Yeah, freedom and equaltiy for those who support their corrupt government and evil visions for a future that leaves them in power and screws over anyone else. Cuba is a prime example of Communism in power. I hate to say this about my own country, but its a poor S**t hole. Why? Thanks to the lovely perks communism offers. Poverty, pain, and death. Yay for Communism! Thankfully Communist nations are dieing out. Many will argue with me and be like "Communism is great!" Is it really? No it isn't. I hate the whole idea of giving everything I have to someone else. "Its your brother/sister human!" I don't care. What is mine, is mine. I will give what is mine to those who earn my trust and loyalty. Humans are not a perfect race. So the idea of sharing everything with anyone is sickening. Its not like that happens anyways, because once a Communist government is put into place then the Governement gets everything. You might say "China is a powerful and communist nation! See it works!" You mean the country where you'll get mowed down by a tank for saying something different from the government? Yeah...it works. I'm sorry to all the socialists in this site, because a lot of them are actually cool. But I know Communism firsthand, and looking at it disgusts me. I'll gladly take the "evil" Republicans over the "pure" communists.


VERY well put, Founder. I totally agree. And oh, yeah, someone could cry that China's Communism works, but it DOESN'T! You are Cuban, and know all about Fidel and commuism, so your opinion should rate closer to fact than anything anyone else could come up with, and be more credible than anything Zeke says.



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Starbuck
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 8:35 pm    

Zeke, you are quite possibly the most brilliant man I know.

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Theresa
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 8:45 pm    

I'm with Founder. Communist ideals, as good intentioned as they may be, have never worked. Wonder why that is.


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Hitchhiker
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 8:50 pm    

Republican_Man wrote:
VERY well put, Founder. I totally agree. And oh, yeah, someone could cry that China's Communism works, but it DOESN'T! You are Cuban, and know all about Fidel and commuism, so your opinion should rate closer to fact than anything anyone else could come up with, and be more credible than anything Zeke says.

Muwahahaha, text messaging shall be the Chinese government's downfall.

Neither China nor Cuba are good examples of communism--I don't think any nation currently designated "communist" is a good example of communism. Castro's Cuba is corrupted by a dictatorship, which has transformed it from communism to a totalitarian state.

"Pure" communism would be egalitarian in nature. The entire concept of private ownership (and hence individualism) would be replaced with the concept of a collective equality. That's why people who prefer capitalism and materialism don't like communism--I must admit, I do not always like sharing and I like being an individual. Hence why communism seems to become a dictatorship--because when a nation institutes a "communist" system, it is usually built by a person or group of people with the intent of maintaining a power grip by establishing a totalitarian society. Alternatively, an existing attempt at communism can be derailed by an ambitious person.

Theresa wrote:
Wonder why that is.


A good example, in my opinion, of communism would be Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. It's certainly a stark contrast to Orwell's totalitarian 1984. It's not actually communism, because Huxley's world does have a social class system, but the other concepts are the same: there are no wars, everyone gets an equal amount, and the class system itself is egalitarian because it's not as if someone has more power over other people--everyone is bred from birth as a certain class, and brainwashed to be happy as that. The only people in control are the Controllers, and they are totally subscribed to the theory that propels the government.

The above world understandably isn't an ideal one by our standards, because it exchanges equality for free thought or significant scientific advancement (there is some). I don't find it desirable, I like being a free thinker, but it is an answer. It removes the major source of instability in a communist government: the nature of humans to seek social advancement and satisfy ambition.


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Theresa
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 8:54 pm    

Wouldn't such a state, theoretically, cause stagnation? People work and create now to better themselves, and yes, their communities. Take Microsoft. Bill Gates is a genius, there is no disputing that. But if he had nothing personally to gain, do you think he would have worked as he did? You have to be honest, Windows did revolutionize much of the computer industry.
I'll always agree that it's a nice idea, but there is always one fatal flaw. Humanity is involved, and human nature can't, IMO, change swift enough to support such a system.



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Founder
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 9:03 pm    

Hitchhiker wrote:
Republican_Man wrote:
VERY well put, Founder. I totally agree. And oh, yeah, someone could cry that China's Communism works, but it DOESN'T! You are Cuban, and know all about Fidel and commuism, so your opinion should rate closer to fact than anything anyone else could come up with, and be more credible than anything Zeke says.

Muwahahaha, text messaging shall be the Chinese government's downfall.

Neither China nor Cuba are good examples of communism--I don't think any nation currently designated "communist" is a good example of communism. Castro's Cuba is corrupted by a dictatorship, which has transformed it from communism to a totalitarian state.

Yeah but you can make that point about any nation that fell to Communsim can't you? It just never works.

"Pure" communism would be egalitarian in nature. The entire concept of private ownership (and hence individualism) would be replaced with the concept of a collective equality. That's why people who prefer capitalism and materialism don't like communism--I must admit, I do not always like sharing and I like being an individual. Hence why communism seems to become a dictatorship--because when a nation institutes a "communist" system, it is usually built by a person or group of people with the intent of maintaining a power grip by establishing a totalitarian society. Alternatively, an existing attempt at communism can be derailed by an ambitious person.

While the idea of pure communism is a nice one, that doesn't change the face that it ALWAYS fails in some way. Again, the thought of giving everything you have to anyone is just wrong. There aer many people who don't deserve what you and I have rightfully earned and vice versa in some cases. You also made a point about losing individuality. EXACTLY why communism, pardon my French, blows ass. I understand the reason Communism fails is because of a man or a group of men with TOO much power. Another thing you said, is that it can be easily toppled. You're right. Thats because that form of governement is so disorganized. Why would anyone want this?

Theresa wrote:
Wonder why that is.


A good example, in my opinion, of communism would be Aldous Huxley's Brave New World. It's certainly a stark contrast to Orwell's totalitarian 1984. It's not actually communism, because Huxley's world does have a social class system, but the other concepts are the same: there are no wars, everyone gets an equal amount, and the class system itself is egalitarian because it's not as if someone has more power over other people--everyone is bred from birth as a certain class, and brainwashed to be happy as that. The only people in control are the Controllers, and they are totally subscribed to the theory that propels the government.

I'm not to big on the class system. Its like a way to tell you you're worthless from birth or you're great from birth. "brainwashed"? Enough said.

The above world understandably isn't an ideal one by our standards, because it exchanges equality for free thought or significant scientific advancement (there is some). I don't find it desirable, I like being a free thinker, but it is an answer. It removes the major source of instability in a communist government: the nature of humans to seek social advancement and satisfy ambition.


An answer to what though? It maybe an answer, but not a good one. It seems like such a huge step down.


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Hitchhiker
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 9:10 pm    

Indeed, free-market economies offer persuasive incentives for human development. This is directly linked with human ambition: prior to our creation of that wonderful fiction known as the economy, incentives for creating new technologies were linked to advancement in social status and accumulation of power. When money came along, it was a perfect outlet for this desire.

Addressing the problem of human nature: all systems of government that we have presently, whether they are communist, capitalist, et cetera, are imperfect systems that have major flaws. Obviously a perfect system is not within our grasp--because no matter how much of "human nature" we can change, imperfection remains. Yet we should continue seeking a system.

At our current stage of cultural development, one could argue that the ideal government system would be one in which all people are equal, all people can express their own ideas, and all people have a tolerable quality of life. Opinions on how to get this system obviously vary from person-to-person, which means that unless we drastically change the system through a revolution, this new form of government also requires some mechanism whereby people can have such forms of radically different opinion, and with these opinions contribute to the process of government.

Democracy attempts to do this by offering representation of one's views in a legislative assembly. Unfortunately, this is often ineffective because it can lead to polarization, deadlock, and further bureaucratic waterlog that can paralyze the decision making process.

Logically, anyone who wishes to lead cannot be allowed to lead. I don't have my copy of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy on me (I lent it out ) but from what I recall, the universe is ruled by a man who does not know it. He has no real concept that people are affected by his decisions, and in fact doesn't know he is making decisions at all--according to him, all that happens is these men in suits and black spaceships show up occasionally and ask him questions.

This form of government is not perfect by any means, and it may seem rather stupid and idiotic . . . so it obviously fits right in with our current systems.

EDIT
Founder wrote:
An answer to what though? It maybe an answer, but not a good one. It seems like such a huge step down.

It's an answer to the problem of human nature causing the system to fail. Like you said, and as I agreed, it's not a good answer.

Thomas Moore's Utopia is apparently a better demonstration of communism, but I've never read it.


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Zeke Zabertini
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PostTue Apr 26, 2005 9:30 pm    

Those of you that condemned my statement as an attack are correct. Many parts of it were. I generally do not take partisan sides, but I wanted to really let loose for once against what I see as destructive and even evil ideology. Now, I realize it's all about opinion. Most things in politics are. I apologize for any offense I caused, but I do not retract my statements.

About my personal political beliefs: I am not a communist. I believe in the communist ideal, but communism does not work. That said, the "communist" nations of the world are poor examples for arguments against communism as they are almost invariably the ultimate product of an autocratic bid for power under the guise of equality and justice for all to win the hearts of the people. These nations are not communist; they are simply two-bit dictatorships sullying the name of the international ideal for their own purposes.
I don't have a party affiliation for a reason: I don't think any of them are right. I am not willing to sacrifice half, a quarter, or even one of my views just so I can claim myself a part of a like-minded posse of bureaucrats and activists. I am not a communist. I am not a socialist. I am not a democrat. I am Ezekiel Edwardo Zabertini. I am me and nothing else, and as I always say, you are free to agree or disagree with me as you will.


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Jeremy
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PostWed Apr 27, 2005 9:11 am    

Theresa wrote:
Wouldn't such a state, theoretically, cause stagnation? People work and create now to better themselves, and yes, their communities. Take Microsoft. Bill Gates is a genius, there is no disputing that. But if he had nothing personally to gain, do you think he would have worked as he did? You have to be honest, Windows did revolutionize much of the computer industry.
I'll always agree that it's a nice idea, but there is always one fatal flaw. Humanity is involved, and human nature can't, IMO, change swift enough to support such a system.


It wasn't just genius though (although I'm not saying he isn't) but also some pretty shady business workings. Microsoft put a better DOS company out of business by saying it wasn't compatible with Windows when it was. I prefer someone like Linus Torvalds who created Linux OS at the age of about 17 I think it was, and then gave it away when it's the 2nd most used OS.

Back on topic, I understand the point being made though. Some people won't bother to work under communism and just misuse the state. So it would never work as people have said.


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webtaz99
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PostWed Apr 27, 2005 11:46 am    

I don't get it. Please state your pledge.


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Zeke Zabertini
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PostWed Apr 27, 2005 2:59 pm    

Please read it.

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webtaz99
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PostFri Apr 29, 2005 7:12 am    

I read it. I still don't get it. You say you're gonna stick by your guns. Big Deal.

Like Jim Malone (Sean Connery) said in "The Untouchables":

What are you going to do?



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webtaz99
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PostFri Apr 29, 2005 7:17 am    

4evajaneway wrote:
Zeke, you are quite possibly the most brilliant man I know.


I think you should get out more.



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Zeke Zabertini
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PostFri Apr 29, 2005 8:26 am    

Fortunately for me, taz, I don't answer to you.

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madlilnerd
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PostFri Apr 29, 2005 2:28 pm    

Well I liked your speech/essay and I agreed with the bits my eyes managed to absorb. People waste too much and care too much about oil. I care so much about people wasting stuff that I even set up my own cult.

Stand up for what you believe in Zeke, and don't let small minded wasteful berks get in the way.

I follow my own code of morals too. Infact, my concience is so underdeveloped I had to stop myself stealing a broken camera from the props cupboard in the drama room yesterday. I was going to take it home and fix it, how is that stealing it? I was gonna give it a good home where it would be used and loved instead of thrown around and abused. Humph!



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Link, the Hero of Time
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PostFri Apr 29, 2005 3:58 pm    

I continually hear communism doest work. It worked in the short run under Lenin, and it works under a different Ideal in a little place called Walden Two.

The community is called Los Horcones and it's worked since 1973.
http://www.loshorcones.org.mx/


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madlilnerd
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PostFri Apr 29, 2005 4:00 pm    

I'd love to live in a commune. I think I'll do it once I've finished my A levels

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